What is the best long term result for Canada in the Gold Cup?

[Grizzly]

This might get me some flak but I think a disgraceful tournament equivalent to the 8-1 loss in Honduras might be the best long term result for the national team. A loss or tie to Martinique and two convincing losses to Panama and Mexico might be exactly what the CSA and Canadian soccer needs. I just don't get the impression that things have really changed or that the needed explosion and new way of doing things has occurred. With Miller at the helm, not getting any results and behaving questionably but still left in charge it seems same old same old to the usual CSA way of doing things. I get the impression that the CSA still thinks Hart was a good coach and we had a good WCQ and the 8-1 was a one off poor result. There have been rumours of them trying to hire a South American coach but then again there have been also rumours of them trying to hire Yallop. And I will believe that they will hire a good, qualified coach the day that they actually do it. I think the CSA still is that thick headed that another kick in the head is needed for anything to change. Don't get me wrong, I will still be watching the games and hoping Canada wins and would never cheer against us. But intellectually thinking of the long term good of the program, I think it may be beneficial to the program to have another embarrassing, traumatic event. And I would certainly rather endure that again than go through 4 more years like the last 12. I don't think I can handle 4 more years like that.

[Lord Bob]

Between the 2011 Gold Cup, the whole World Cup qualifying cycle (where there were very few results that inspired confidence and a few at home that were, at best, minimally acceptable) I don't think that any rational observer can think that we're doing well. I also don't think the CSA thinks that; furthermore, if we do blow our brains out in the Gold Cup there are enough excuses built-in that anyone sufficiently delusional will have no problem maintaining their madness.

Therefore, I think the best long-term result is to win, because all else being equal winning is good.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Colin Miller has had a good run of games as coach, going back to the early part of the century. The squad has never looked even remotely close to winning under him. What his record anyway? 0-1-7? I don't think there's any chance we get out of the group with even 3 points. I suspect 1.

The premise of this thread is a football first world problem, and we're still recycling random plastics for a living trying our best not to step in the **** that is floating all around us.

[squizz1402635577]

I see the point you're getting at, Grizz, and there's some merit to it. But in terms of "kick in the ass" moments, I don't think you can get much more dramatic than 8-1. The fact that DeRo, Bernier, et. al. were left off the Gold Cup roster in favour of younger players (regardless of what one may think of those particular players) is a sign of progress/change, no? And while Miller's interim term hasn't exactly been glorious, I think we really need to wait and see what happens with the full-time hire. Like you, I'm taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach, but for some ridiculous, not-supported-by-evidence-or-reality reason, I'm willing to give the CSA the benefit of the doubt.

Tanking this Gold Cup (intentionally or otherwise) would essentially destroy any and all goodwill created towards the team in the past few years amongst the general sporting/soccer public, and would also cause some serious consternation amongst our already paper-thin player pool (and that, more than anything, would have a deleterious impact on our ability to do better in the next 4/8/12 years).

[Addona]

What his record anyway? 0-1-7?

That depends ... do you count yesterday's draw vs. the formidable Fusion? If you do, I believe he has 2 draws!

But, yeah, sadly 1 point from this group seems a very likely outcome. Miller is in over his head.

On an unrelated note, if an injury occurs, we can only replace with players from the 35 man roster, correct? If so, it is completely mind blowing that Hume (and, of course, Bernier) were not at least on the 35 man roster. How the **** is Frank Jonke on there ahead of Hume? How? It's enough to wonder if everyone associated with the CSA has gone bat **** crazy.

Edit: My mind keeps jumping to this scene from Zoolander when I think about this decision:

[El Hombre]

Therefore, I think the best long-term result is to win, because all else being equal winning is good.

I agree with this to a point. Should we win out (I know, I know), then I will bet Miller would become our new head coach, which would be bad. Very bad.

However, having an exceptionally poor tournament would be a terrible thing. Whether people want to recognize it or not, the CSA has changed (moderately) and they have put money into the senior men's program:

1) We have had 5 friendlies already this year (not counting last night's) and there is more to come in the fall. Since 1999, the only time we've had more than 5 friendlies in a year (let alone 6 months) are the years leading into WCQ. Definitely not after WCQ has wrapped up as we are currently seeing. Also, from what I can tell, the most friendlies we ever had in a calendar year was in 2003 when we had 7.

2) Aside from a few hiccups, according to the players, the CSA has been much more professional in terms of travel and accomodations last WCQ. That's a far cry from Jazic having to fly 18 hours in coach a couple days before the game.

3) There has been singificant activity at the lower levels (U20/U17) that shows a commitment to the entire program.

Are they done? No, definitely not. But if you look at the entire program, I think you can see that there is a concerted effort on the part of the CSA to do their part. My worry is that, should we flame out to the extent put forward by the OP, the CSA will see the program as a sinking ship and start diverting money elsewhere.

Win but don't win to an extent where Miller looks like he's a genius.

[Addona]

Win but don't win to an extent where Miller looks like he's a genius.

Right now, the prior probability on this happening seems rather low, and that's an understatement of epic proportions.

[JamboAl]

I never want us to lose; in fact, I want us to win every game even though that's unrealistic. The way I see this, if we do very well, we will have unearthed some young gems for the next qualifying cycle.

[madmonte]

I think the best result at this point would be a POSITIVE result, but with the right players on the pitch. In other words, less of Ricketts and Bekker. Teibert on the right hand side, Johnson on the left. Leave guys like Bekker and Ricketts off the pitch until they can prove they can make a contribution at club level. Sandes Ulf is the worst team in the Norway top tier, and Ricketts has lost his spot in the lineup even there.

I don't mind Ricketts coming off the bench in a sub role, don't get me wrong, but there is no way he is starter quality for any national side.

[BearcatSA]

I never want us to lose; in fact, I want us to win every game even though that's unrealistic. The way I see this, if we do very well, we will have unearthed some young gems for the next qualifying cycle.

^All this, but particularly the highlighted part. Right now, too many guys who are (or, at best, will be) lower echelon journeymen fill the ranks of this squad.

I just find the talent/depth situation so discouraging right now.

[Addona]

I don't mind Ricketts coming off the bench in a sub role, don't get me wrong, but there is no way he is starter quality for any national side.

I'm actually not convinced that Ricketts is good enough to come off the bench. It depends how bad we are, and how complete our team is, injuries, suspensions, etc. In my mind, here is a list of attacking players (not counting guys like Atiba, Johnson, and other more "two-way" players) who should definitely be ahead of him:

1. Teibert

2. Cavallini

3. Jackson

4. M. Haber

5. Hume

6. DeRo

7. REB

8. Issey

Am I missing anyone? D. Haber is on his way to jumping ahead of Ricketts; who else? Occean? Friend (yes, even Friend)?

If 4 of these guys start a match, we would have a couple on the bench, and I'm not sure where Ricketts fits in.

[madmonte]

^All this, but particularly the highlighted part. Right now, too many guys who are (or, at best, will be) lower echelon journeymen fill the ranks of this squad.

I just find the talent/depth situation so discouraging right now.

+1 But as I put in my basketball thread, it's encouraging to note that when the Toronto Raptors came into existence, was pretty close to the same time that Anthony Bennett...Andrew Wiggins...Tristan Thompson came into existence. And most of them said they grew up watching the raptors, and caught on to the sport early going to live games. Every time you see a young lad at a TFC, Whitecaps, FC Edmonton, Ottawa Fury or Montreal Impact game smile, and hope you are still a fan ten to fifteen years from now. Sigh.

[Admin]

Without money, it does't matter. There is no large wallop of cash sitting there waiting for us to fail and come in and revamp everything.

Win the whole thing would be the best result possible. Win/lose we are faced with the same problem, so winning is the only sensible option.

[Keegan]

Knowing Canada here's how it will go:

vs. Martinique: W 3-0 = "Wow, the boys have really turned it around we have an amazing future!"

vs. Mexico: L 2-0 = "We weren't even in the match against Mexico B! How are we ever gonna compete in the Hex?"

vs. Panama: D 1-1 = "Fair result"

Quarters vs. USA: L 2-1 = Ref screwed us!

[madmonte]

^Sounds about right

Or...

vs Panama L 2-1 "We need to scrap everyone and noone shall ever play for Canada again!"

[lazlo_80]

The best long term result in this tournament is surprising performances from some of the younger guys, Will Johnson proving he's a great captain, more goals scoring fire power than we expected, Some kids impressing with their first few caps.

Seeing some exciting potential within the context of a new generation of the CMNT

[Addona]

Knowing Canada here's how it will go:

vs. Martinique: W 3-0 = "Wow, the boys have really turned it around we have an amazing future!"

vs. Mexico: L 2-0 = "We weren't even in the match against Mexico B! How are we ever gonna compete in the Hex?"

vs. Panama: D 1-1 = "Fair result"

Quarters vs. USA: L 2-1 = Ref screwed us!

This sounds about right, except I would change the Martinique scoreline to 1-0, with us getting "plenty of chances" but not finishing them. If we score 3 on Martinique, I will owe you a Coke.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Knowing Canada here's how it will go:

vs. Martinique: W 3-0 = "Wow, the boys have really turned it around we have an amazing future!"

Predicting Canada score three especially when we barely have anyone who can score one is a recipe doomed for disaster. And IIRC correctly our record against Martinique isn't exactly exemplary (one win (1-0), two draws (1-1)(2-2))

[Keegan]

Predicting Canada score three especially when we barely have anyone who can score one is a recipe doomed for disaster. And IIRC correctly our record against Martinique isn't exactly exemplary (one win (1-0), two draws (1-1)(2-2))

But don't you see... that's exactly why they'll score three. It's the last thing we'd expect.

[Grizzly]

Knowing Canada here's how it will go:

vs. Martinique: W 3-0 = "Wow, the boys have really turned it around we have an amazing future!"

vs. Mexico: L 2-0 = "We weren't even in the match against Mexico B! How are we ever gonna compete in the Hex?"

vs. Panama: D 1-1 = "Fair result"

Quarters vs. USA: L 2-1 = Ref screwed us!

That seems incredibly optimistic. I would predict 0-0 or 1-1 against Martinique, 2-0 loss to Panama B, 3-0 loss to Mexico B and depending on goal differential finishing in 4th in the group or 3rd but not advancing to the knockout stage.

[BearcatSA]

The best long term result in this tournament is surprising performances from some of the younger guys, Will Johnson proving he's a great captain, more goals scoring fire power than we expected, Some kids impressing with their first few caps.

Seeing some exciting potential within the context of a new generation of the CMNT

The trend with this MNT is that they vacillate between significant underachievement or overachievement of expectations. Right now, things seem set up for the latter.

[Grizzly]

I see the point you're getting at, Grizz, and there's some merit to it. But in terms of "kick in the ass" moments, I don't think you can get much more dramatic than 8-1. The fact that DeRo, Bernier, et. al. were left off the Gold Cup roster in favour of younger players (regardless of what one may think of those particular players) is a sign of progress/change, no?

The two players you mention being left off had no part in the 8-1 while the guy who is being brought for "leadership" played a significant part in that result. And what type of leadership will this guy provide our young players? Will he bring everyone out drinking when we get eliminated from the tournament? Will he show them how to make memes like an angry 14 year old about someone in the CSA management? And while it is good we have some young players there even a few of those seem to be poor choices. Looks to me more like same old same old than change/progress.

[lazlo_80]

The trend with this MNT is that they vacillate between significant underachievement or overachievement of expectations. Right now, things seem set up for the latter.

I think a big reason for that is expectations. Considering expectations for this tournament are so low I definitely agree. After the 8-1 loss and the world cup qualifying in general, I'm definitely not too invested in this tournament.

[ag futbol]

The best long term result out of this tournament is that the association gets embarrassed and has to continue to clean up it's act. We are never going to get anywhere by sticking with internal candidates and leaving the head coaching spot vacant for extended periods under the guise of "searching really hard".

What we should have done is hired somebody externally months ago. They could have played the recent friendlies and the gold cup and had all of next year to continue to show what kind of progress they could make. If they did well we could continue on with them for WCQ, if they didn't we could let them go and bring someone new in.

But no, we're just going to put all our eggs in one basket and continue to run our national team program in a haphazard part-time nature. We are wasting our time by letting Miller coach this team.

[koolvid]

The more disappointment CSA produces the more Canadian youth will get disinterested with the sport and team. It will also make the decision for Canadian soccer players with duel citizenship much easier.

Knowing Canada here's how it will go:

vs. Martinique: W 3-0 = "Wow, the boys have really turned it around we have an amazing future!"

vs. Mexico: L 2-0 = "We weren't even in the match against Mexico B! How are we ever gonna compete in the Hex?"

vs. Panama: D 1-1 = "Fair result"

Quarters vs. USA: L 2-1 = Ref screwed us!

I don't get the bold. Why would anyone sane say that? No sh*t Mexico's B team is better than ours by a wiiiide margin. Probably better than our A team too. A 3-0 loss result would meet realistic expectations.