New D3 pro league

[PJSweet]

I'm aware that the CSA have released the report, but have they given a time frame as to when the league is expected to kick-off? And if so, how many teams are expected to participate in its inaugural season?

[Trillium]

The CSA is out of the D3 league business, they have tossed it back to the provinces, so each province is on its own, Quebec has one the CSL in Ontario will run to end of this season.

It is not clear if a D3 will be sanctioned to run in Ontario in 2014, the OSA is busy launching its u13 age league the OPDL and has not focussed on Senior soccer.

League One is not yet defined, or approved by OSA.

BC appears to not be developing anything, ASA probably not .... a National System has not been created by the CSA, its to big task for the CSA to understand.

[Red and White]

It is not clear if a D3 will be sanctioned to run in Ontario in 2014, the OSA is busy launching its u13 age league the OPDL and has not focussed on Senior soccer.

League One is not yet defined, or approved by OSA.

I was under the impression that:

League One Ontario = OPDL

L1O was just a hypothetical model for a league to be based on a few years ago. I could be wrong. In all honesty, Ontario Player Development League is not a good name at all anyway. Just call it something like the Ontario Premier League. We all know its purpose is too develop players, no need to rub that in.

I'm also not a fan of the plan to start at U-13 and gradually increase to U-23 by 2020. I wouldn't expect a full-fledged U-23 division right away, but surely we can have it in place before 2020? How many potential players are missing out on a chance to make it far because they will be seven years older (than they are today) in 2020?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

According to some of the material made public during the whole CSA desanctioning saga, there were four clubs ready to go where L1O was concerned for 2013. Given the CSL now loses its sanctioning in Feb 2014 rather than Feb 2013 as a result of the arbitration and a number of CSL teams with a strong youth orientation dropped out this season, I suspect they will have the eight needed to proceed next summer. If not, the OSA will have some explaining to do.

[ThiKu]

Let the fun begin. Name the 8 cities from your province who will host a team;

1. Okanagan

2. Fraser Valley (Abbotsford I bet based on past PDL and current PCSL set-up - Langley will want it!)

3. Surrey (do they get TWO franchises?? Could!)

4. Coquitlam

5. Burnaby

6. West Vancouver or Richmond

7. Vancouver Whitecaps

8. Victoria Highlanders

And these also happen to be the BC Soccer (youth) Premier League cities. Although I didn't think that when writing this list I noted it after. It makes sense to put the national league teams in the same city (same club/franchise?) as those BCSPL teams.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There isn't going to be a national D3 league. Once the CSL's sanctioning expires in Feb 2014, the CSA will be handing over the D3 level to the provinces. All there will be is a set of national sanctioning standards and probably some end of season tournament along the lines of the existing amateur level national championship.

[ted]

I'm aware that the CSA have released the report, but have they given a time frame as to when the league is expected to kick-off? And if so, how many teams are expected to participate in its inaugural season?

I assume you are talking about this: CSA aiming for 2015 launch of national semi-pro league

If so your question is a little... misguided.

The article makes clear what I suspected and what others were preaching as a "done deal": the CSA has actual plans that make some sense. This despite what they have been saying publicly since the release of the Easton Report.

Thank the gods!

Your question is misguided because we are talking about three leagues to start: one that exists in Quebec, one that starts next year (2014) in Ontario and one that is planned for BC with no firm start date (2015 being mooted).

They will be connected by some sort of cup competition or end-of-season tournament (I hope both) to create a "national" footprint according to CSA president Victor Montagliani:

"The national league will consist of, at that level, those three regional leagues. What will then happen at the national level – and come from the CSA - is we will build standards for player contracts, standards technically, standards administratively and obviously a national competition for these three leagues."

My main concern is that the level of competition from the BC player pool will not be significantly better (and likely worse) than what is available in the USL PDL and USLPro. Victoria Highlanders play against development teams of the Vancouver Whitecaps, Seattle Sounders and Portland Timbers that regularly include players from their first team (MLS). Going forward the USL Pro has a deal with MLS to be the league for their reserve teams.

Somebody please tell me how it is better for Victoria Highlanders players to compete against teams from Kelowna, Nanaimo, Richmond, Abbotsford, etc than competing against development or reserve teams from the Whitecaps, Timbers and Sounders?

The only way I can see it working is if the MLS teams in Canada at least are allowed to have a side deal where their reserve teams play in the new D3 structure instead of USLPro. Even better would be that they allow Seattle and Portland into the BC-based league. Hey wouldn't that be fun if we had a few US teams playing in our league instead of the other way around for once.

[mmd]

I assume you are talking about this: CSA aiming for 2015 launch of national semi-pro league

If so your question is a little... misguided.

The article makes clear what I suspected and what others were preaching as a "done deal": the CSA has actual plans that make some sense. This despite what they have been saying publicly since the release of the Easton Report.

Thank the gods!

Your question is misguided because we are talking about three leagues to start: one that exists in Quebec, one that starts next year (2014) in Ontario and one that is planned for BC with no firm start date (2015 being mooted).

They will be connected by some sort of cup competition or end-of-season tournament (I hope both) to create a "national" footprint according to CSA president Victor Montagliani:

My main concern is that the level of competition from the BC player pool will not be significantly better (and likely worse) than what is available in the USL PDL and USLPro. Victoria Highlanders play against development teams of the Vancouver Whitecaps, Seattle Sounders and Portland Timbers that regularly include players from their first team (MLS). Going forward the USL Pro has a deal with MLS to be the league for their reserve teams.

Somebody please tell me how it is better for Victoria Highlanders players to compete against teams from Kelowna, Nanaimo, Richmond, Abbotsford, etc than competing against development or reserve teams from the Whitecaps, Timbers and Sounders?

The only way I can see it working is if the MLS teams in Canada at least are allowed to have a side deal where their reserve teams play in the new D3 structure instead of USLPro. Even better would be that they allow Seattle and Portland into the BC-based league. Hey wouldn't that be fun if we had a few US teams playing in our league instead of the other way around for once.

I hope CSA aiming for 2015 launch of national semi-pro league is true and works.

Could the L1O be based on the new OPDL....which if the case will be at least 5-6 years until L1O kicks in????

Meaning all the clubs in the OPDL will be promoted into the L1O. From what i understand the teams in OPDL need to have certain guidelines in place, like a Turf field, to Regulation Grass fields, a club house with change rooms for home and away team.

Plus a seperate change room for the referee's...sounds semi-pro to me??

[Bill Spiers]

Thought some of you might be interested in an e-mail I came across recently to a contact in Western Canada. This outlined a proposal from the CPSL to create a series of Regional or Provincial Semi-Pro Leagues across Canada to support the A-League (at that time the D1 league in North America). This e-mail dates from October 1999 when I was Chair of the CPSL. Despite the KPMG Report - and now the Easton Report - we really haven't progressed much in the last 14 years! Time to get moving!

Oct 26, 1999

First, I understand that the KPMG report was not ready in time to be reviewed by the CSA Board of Directors at their recent meeting in Ottawa. In fact, it is still not ready but expected shortly.

Second, the meeting to review the report - originally scheduled for November 6/7, 1999 - has now been postponed until late January or early February.

As I mentioned in one of my posts, I was hoping to get that report out of the way before seriously pushing for the option we believe in - expansion of provincial or regional leagues along the lines of the CPSL as a second division to support the Canadian teams in the A-League as first division.

However, the CPSL and similar leagues could also support a CSL instead of the A-League although I still have serious doubts about the feasibility of a revived CSL at this time.

My preferred approach is four provincial or regional pro leagues across Canada.

Starting in the west - the better teams from the PCSL and the Vancouver Metro League to form a BC semi-pro league.

In the Prairies - the better teams from the Alberta Major Soccer League - along with 'franchises' in Regina, Saskatoon and, perhaps, Winnipeg to form a semi-pro league in the Prairies. Ideally, Alberta could provide a couple of teams from Edmonton, a couple from Calgary and perhaps one from Lethbridge and other major population centres. This would provide for a nice 8 or 10 team league.

In Ontario, we already have the CPSL but hope to expand to other major cities in the province rather than being concentrated, as presently, in the Greater Toronto Area.

In Quebec, the Quebec Elite Soccer League possibly upgrading to semi-pro and taking in one (Halifax) or more teams from the Atlantic provinces.

As a big supporter of the CSA National Club Championships - at U-15, U-17, U-19 and Men/Women - I would then like to see a similar National Championship for the four pro leagues over the Thanksgiving weekend.

I notice there is a renewal of posts on Voyageurs on this issue. I haven't much of a chance to add my comments to the latest round but will do so when I get a chance.

To answer your specific questions:

Club Budget

We have proposed a 'model' club budget of $125,000.00 of which almost half would be in player salaries (which doesn't go far even amongst 10 players) and salaries for the coaching staff.

In actual fact, the club budgets varied considerably within the CPSL with, as you would expect, the Olympians above the proposed the 'model' budget and some other clubs way below.

The other major expense we have noted - both at the club level and the league level - is in marketing and promotion. An advantage of the CPSL concept across the country - especially if the other leagues would be willing to go by the names CPSL (B.C. Division), CPSL (Prairie Division), CPSL (Quebec/Maritime Division) would be the possibility of co-ordinated marketing and the opportunity to bring some national sponsors on board. However, the one thing we have learned in trying to bring the CPSL (Ontario) along is that you have to have the product in place before you can start marketing it.

The CPSL (Ontario) league fee for 1999 was only $10,000.00 which in my opinion was insufficient to run the league properly as a professional operation. We still relied too much on volunteers (such as myself) to get the work done.

Let me know if you would like any more specifics. If you would like a copy of our Membership Prospectus for 2000, give me your address and we'll mail you a copy.

Regards, Bill Spiers

[Bill Spiers]

Could the L1O be based on the new OPDL....which if the case will be at least 5-6 years until L1O kicks in????

Meaning all the clubs in the OPDL will be promoted into the L1O. From what i understand the teams in OPDL need to have certain guidelines in place, like a Turf field, to Regulation Grass fields, a club house with change rooms for home and away team.

Plus a seperate change room for the referee's...sounds semi-pro to me??

The proposed OPDL is an Elite Youth Development League starting at U-13 in 2014 and expanding a year at a time to U-17 by 2018 and then, possibly, to U-23.

The proposed League 1 Ontario is a separate Semi-Pro League.

[ThiKu]

Ted, I completely understand what you are saying. and yes, a Canada D3 u23 league would be less than the standard of PDL - for now. I would hope the Whitecaps would be asked to participate in a Canada D3 league and placed in the BC division. And obviously hope they accept that invite.

That being said, Ted, how many Highlanders players are moving on to the national team, or pro teams etc? Additionally (and I honestly dont' know the answer here), how many in the HFC first XI (regular starters) are age 21+? Also, the PDL season is an extremely short season. The idea behind a Canadian league is it would be much lengthier (I hope a minimum of 6 months).

Also playing in a Canada-specific league which is supported by CSA would almost certainly immediately bring to the attention of the national teams from u17-senior a variety of players they otherwise wouldn't see who are playing PDL (even though PDL is likely a higher standard).

Then, even beyond that, youngsters in Canada would have more to strive for - PDL is a glorified summer league right now. But if a Canada D3 is done right, they would be playing live on streams and/oror sportsnet (the score, tsn2, etc) and surely be added to the Voyageurs Cup.

Again, although a lesser standard of play (at least to start), with some tweaks the benefits to a Canada D3 are far more than that of the PDL for our young Canadians.

[Macksam]

The proposed OPDL is an Elite Youth Development League starting at U-13 in 2014 and expanding a year at a time to U-17 by 2018 and then, possibly, to U-23.

The proposed League 1 Ontario is a separate Semi-Pro League.

Yeah, it's separate, but not totally. The OSA have stated they wanted to get the OPDL going before they set up L1O, which would act as the senior league for the OPDL.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Thought some of you might be interested in an e-mail I came across recently to a contact in Western Canada. This outlined a proposal from the CPSL to create a series of Regional or Provincial Semi-Pro Leagues across Canada to support the A-League (at that time the D1 league in North America)....

I don't think that's in any way relevant to the Easton report because the key problem with the CPSL was that you had an open age semi-pro format reliant on players who also had regular 9 to 5 jobs as their main source of income, which made long distance road travel highly problematic. What the CSA finally seem to have grasped is that what is needed is a Canadian version of PDL, emulating the junior hockey rather than senior hockey business model.

[ted]

Lets get something clear form the start: we are talking about one of three leagues. There is no "Canada D3 league". We are NOT talking about a "national league".

The proposal is to link three (perhaps more someday I would imagine) provincial/regional leagues using a tournament and possibly entry into the Voyageurs Cup.

Ted, I completely understand what you are saying. and yes, a Canada D3 u23 league would be less than the standard of PDL - for now.

My concern is that a clear path beyond "for now" has not yet been articulated.

Also, the PDL season is an extremely short season. The idea behind a Canadian league is it would be much lengthier (I hope a minimum of 6 months).

Yes, the PDL season is far too short because it is stocked mainly with college players. This is the #1 benefit I would hope for with a new D3 structure: a move away from depending on college players and a season long enough to develop player skills and fan interest.

The Quebec league is already at that length and I would also hope that any new BC league followed suit.

although a lesser standard of play (at least to start), with some tweaks the benefits to a Canada D3 are far more than that of the PDL for our young Canadians.

HELLO! I never said that we should stick with PDL did you miss where I talked about USLPro? Eventually we need to move "up" but right now the better option for player development in British Columbia looks like USLPro. I remain unconvinced that you could "tweak" a BC league sufficiently to make it a more attractive option.

Primarily it hinges on the participation of the Whitecaps. If they can place their reserve team in the new leagues instead of the USLPro then I think we have a chance. If they choose to keep the team in USLPro then there is little point.

Now, even if the Whitecaps entered their reserve team in the Unnamed BC League, they are still only one team out of the eight to ten you need to make a decent league running for the six months you and I agree is necessary.

Assuming the Whitecaps and Highlanders are in, I am not convinced that you could add six to eight more semi-pro teams from the player pool available in British Columbia alone. We could try Kelowna, Penticton, Nanaimo and one more (aside from the Whitecaps) in the lower mainland but that pretty much stretches it for players and spectators which we need to pay the bills. So that would be six teams, not really enough. Add more and you are simply dragging down the standard to PCSL/VMSL level which does nothing for our players and is not interesting to spectators.

The USLPro route on the other hand could allow for teams from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, etc which increases the available player pool and gives us a shot at the competition we need to develop pro players. We could still add a couple more teams from BC to build a strong division and give more than enough development slots to young Canadian players.

As a nationalist I would still prefer the all-Canadian system but I think that the proposed system can only be made to work in BC if we accept some American teams. Basically take the PCSL model which has chugged along for years and has included teams from BC, Washington and Oregon. Teams would compete in the league and in their respective cup competitions and everybody wins.

Doesn't change what they are doing in Ontario and Quebec BTW. No reason for them to offer places to US teams. It might help make a "Prairie" and a "Maritime" league more viable however. As it stands neither region has enough population centers to fill a D3 league but add two to four teams from bordering states and it could work in those regions.

Sure we could create an "All-Canadian D3 league" but would it be financially sustainable? Would it provide the level of competition required to effectively develop pro players? Well, if you think the number and quality of players Canada is producing today is good enough the the answer is yes. If you want more and better players then we need something more than what is currently on the table.

[ted]

What the CSA finally seem to have grasped is that what is needed is a Canadian version of PDL, emulating the junior hockey rather than senior hockey business model.

Actually no, what they have finally grasped is that they need a Canadian version of USLPro which is a semi-professional regionally-based league.

[Macksam]

Sure we could create an "All-Canadian D3 league" but would it be financially sustainable? Would it provide the level of competition required to effectively develop pro players? Well, if you think the number and quality of players Canada is producing today is good enough the the answer is yes. If you want more and better players then we need something more than what is currently on the table.

You think what the Easton Report proposes would do nothing, and we'd still produce the same amount of pro players as we do today?

[ted]

You think what the Easton Report proposes would do nothing, and we'd still produce the same amount of pro players as we do today?

If we did what the Easton Report suggested, create a national D3, then yes we would be slightly better off. Not as much as we could be, but a big step in the right direction and probably enough to make whiners like me happy.

However, what has been proposed is not even that vision. What has been proposed does almost nothing to increase the number of pro players produced as we do today.

What has been proposed is hardly better than what we had in 2012 and can barely be considered D3. Oh wait they have added the slight benefit of something like a tournament between the three regional league winners and maybe, possibly, perhaps allowing for some participation in the Voyageurs Cup by one or more teams.

It is a teeny, tiny step in the right direction but until we know what the MLS teams are going to do and what other clubs will be participating I cannot see how this helps us very much.

IF the MLS teams come aboard, and IF the right clubs can be found and IF the league is given the financial support it will need and IF the clubs are allowed to enter the Voyageurs Cup and IF the CSA insists on development fees to community clubs and transfer fees to the D3 teams and IF the media accept the new league as "pro" then MAYBE it will make the situation better.

[ThiKu]

Actually no, what they have finally grasped is that they need a Canadian version of USLPro which is a semi-professional regionally-based league.

thank you for all your responses, Ted. I absolutely agree with this statement here though. Well said.

[ThiKu]

If we did what the Easton Report suggested, create a national D3, then yes we would be slightly better off. Not as much as we could be, but a big step in the right direction and probably enough to make whiners like me happy.

However, what has been proposed is not even that vision. What has been proposed does almost nothing to increase the number of pro players produced as we do today.

What has been proposed is hardly better than what we had in 2012 and can barely be considered D3. Oh wait they have added the slight benefit of something like a tournament between the three regional league winners and maybe, possibly, perhaps allowing for some participation in the Voyageurs Cup by one or more teams.

It is a teeny, tiny step in the right direction but until we know what the MLS teams are going to do and what other clubs will be participating I cannot see how this helps us very much.

IF the MLS teams come aboard, and IF the right clubs can be found and IF the league is given the financial support it will need and IF the clubs are allowed to enter the Voyageurs Cup and IF the CSA insists on development fees to community clubs and transfer fees to the D3 teams and IF the media accept the new league as "pro" then MAYBE it will make the situation better.

TED, you are condemning a league in this post without knowing the standards expected of the league......

Or did I miss a post somewhere outlining what the CSA will demand of a u23 semi-pro league? Anyway, yoru last paragraph is what I expect as a bare minimum for a u23 semi pro league. Add stadia requirements to those minimums.

[canadianfoot]

Let the fun begin. Name the 8 cities from your province who will host a team;

1. Okanagan

2. Fraser Valley (Abbotsford I bet based on past PDL and current PCSL set-up - Langley will want it!)

3. Surrey (do they get TWO franchises?? Could!)

4. Coquitlam

5. Burnaby

6. West Vancouver or Richmond

7. Vancouver Whitecaps

8. Victoria Highlanders

And these also happen to be the BC Soccer (youth) Premier League cities. Although I didn't think that when writing this list I noted it after. It makes sense to put the national league teams in the same city (same club/franchise?) as those BCSPL teams.

Nanaimo

Victoria

Kamloops

Kelowna

Surrey

Richmond

Langley

Vancouver(whitecaps)

As a teaser you could mention 2 teams for Edmonton and 2 for Calgary. Potential for 10-12teams that's 9-11home games. I am sure the Eddies would like to have their reserve play in another league than Alberta since they have no one that matches them.

You keep teams close by where they will have some natural rivals. Island, Okanagan, Lowermainland.

Richmond for sure can support a 1200-1500 attendance. I live a stone throw from Hugh Boyd park and see kids/adults play alike morning/night. Sometimes when I leave at 6am there are a dozen players playing 5v5 6v6. I also believe Richmond has the $$$ for a team. But Minoru isn't ideal. No Alcohol permit, track. Etc.

[ThiKu]

Explain to me, Canadianfoot, how you justify giving a team to Nanaimo and a 2nd Okanagan team ahead of, for example a 2nd Surrey team, or a team in Coquitlam/Burnaby, or even a 2nd Vancouver team. Please.

Nanaimo couldn't even produce competitive Metro youth teams, but you think they could produce a senior semi-pro team?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Actually no, what they have finally grasped is that they need a Canadian version of USLPro which is a semi-professional regionally-based league.

In reality, USLPro has a conventional home and away regular season format that results in teams having to travel over an area stretching from Los Angeles to the island of Antigua in the Caribbean to Rochester and to operate on a fully pro basis (USLPro currently appears to be evolving into a AAA farm team league for MLS), and has no age related player development angle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_USL_Pro_season

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/sports/56198971-77/rsl-league-lagerwey-lake.html.csp

It, therefore, has zero relevance to the Easton Report and its recommendation for U-23 oriented semi-pro provincial level leagues, unless you see the shared use of "D3" as labels for completely unrelated sets of sanctioning standards as somehow being pivotal.

[ted]

TED, you are condemning a league in this post without knowing the standards expected of the league......

Perhaps I am.

However from my perspective I am assessing the talent pool available in the province for what I consider to be D3 competition. I find the idea that we could find enough players in BC to stock 8 - 10 semi-pro teams a bit of a stretch. If we don't allow US teams into the mix then we will have to at least allow for a significant number of foreign players on the teams to bring up the quality of play.

Anyway, yoru last paragraph is what I expect as a bare minimum for a u23 semi pro league. Add stadia requirements to those minimums.

Yep, I believe we are actually all thinking along the same lines.

I just have little confidence in the CSA or the BCSA to deliver AND I still believe that even if they do come through with all we have outlined above it will still be extremely risky. I am admittedly, far more risk-averse than the average person and thus I look for the safest possible course of action.

Despite this, the prospect of an away game to Nanaimo makes me irrationally excited.

[ThiKu]

Ted, I can see a team like Bellingham being allowed into a BC u23 semi-pro league, possibly Kitsap? But beyond that having an additional 4-6 BC teams would be just fine. Or 6-8 BC teams on top of them. Allowing foreign players? Why would you assume they wouldn't be allowed in? By default of this being a semi-pro league not many foreigners will come in, but some will. I suspect the league would have a league max of foreigners and my hope would be a max of .... 40%?? I dunno. Throwing a number out there. But almost certainly the teams will be 90-95% Canadian.

Although CSA is pushing for this league I asked a Toronto-based reporter (Rycroft I think it was?) and he confirmed the teams will be owned privately (his example was the Quebec semi-pro league). So although BCSA would need to approve the league, I don't see them having any business running it. They may provide some sort of sponsorship (fields, refs, or some such?). I agree with you - I have little confidence in BCSA running and delivering such a league. I suspect BCSA's involvement would be ensuring the BCSPL teams are linked directly to such a league. So you end-up having loads of kids not picked-up by the Whitecaps getting permits to play up in this u23 league as 16-17 year olds....the odd 15 year old. The standard won't be so high that 15-17 year olds couldn't get games/minutes. The Whitecaps can only take X number of players so these other teams would find, develop, and uncover those the Caps don't rate, or simply miss. (and some of those will almost definitely go on to higher levels than Whitecaps).

The benefit being the CSA see's more players for the talent pool, a domestic national team could be explored,

But minimum standards had better be fairly high, and there had better be a tv/internet streaming deal.

[ted]

So although BCSA would need to approve the league, I don't see them having any business running it. They may provide some sort of sponsorship (fields, refs, or some such?). I agree with you - I have little confidence in BCSA running and delivering such a league.

That was my understanding as well. When I talk about "delivering" I mean in approving the league and the teams. I am talking about reviewing applications from teams and approving the business plan for the league. Functions that I worry the amateur bureaucrats of the BCSA are not qualified to perform.

The standard won't be so high that 15-17 year olds couldn't get games/minutes.

And here, in a nutshell is why I am so nervous about this idea. If we are talking about the occasional player earning a place at 16 or 17 I think we would be on the right track. If several 15 year olds earn regular starting places then we have aimed too low.