Is 12 the magic number? Will the V-Cup save him....

[canadianfoot]

So is 12 the magic number for the Whitecaps? I don't mean the fans as a 12th player...but rather 12 Regular MLS Season games. I was thinking yesterday after the Whitecaps loss to Real Salt Lake, when will the Whitecaps hit the panic button.

Currently the Whitecaps are Second to last in their conference with 9pts and 9games played with a record of 2-4-3.....but Seattle has 2games in hand at the moment. Overall they are 15th out of 19teams league wide, with Chicago Fire and DC United 1 game in hand.

Here is what I am getting at May 30th, 2011 does it ring a bell to anyone? That's the day the Whitecaps announced that TT wasn't the Head Coach anymore and Tom Soehn takes over. Now TT had a league record of 1-5-6 in 12games LAST in the Western Conference and had lost the V-Cup.

Now the 12regular Season game for the Whitecaps will be June 1st vs. NYRB in NY....while the V-Cup will conclude May 29th. Between june 1st and now the Whitecaps have to play:

May 11th vs. LA Galaxy(home game)

May 15th vs. MTL Impact (away game FINAL of V-Cup 1st Leg)

May 18th vs. Portland Timbers (home game)

***** CANADA vs. COSTA RICA Friendly*********

May 28th, 2013 Vancouver might lose Teibert and Mtl might lose someone as well

May 29th vs. MTL Impact (home game FINAL of V-Cup 2nd Leg)

June 1st vs. NYRB (away game)......12th game

I think that Martin Rennie needs to win the Voyageurs Cup BADLY because if they lose againt LA Galaxy and Portland he is Screwed right now he has 2wins that's it. TT had to deal with an expansion team way harder to deal with then the position Martin is in now don't you guys think?

Blast from the past............

******************

Vancouver Whitecaps fire head coach Teitur Thordarson 12 games into first MLS season

The labouring Vancouver Whitecaps announced Monday (May 30) that the club has fired head coach Teitur Thordarson.

The Whitecaps, in their inaugural year in Major League Soccer, have only one win (1-5-6) in their first 12 games and are in last place in the Western Conference.

The Whitecaps also reported the firing of goalkeeper coach Mike Salmon.

Paul Barber, chief executive officer of the team, announced in a news release Monday: “Teitur and Mike have served the club extremely well in recent seasons, but we feel that today’s changes are necessary in order to accelerate the process of turning around our difficult start to the season.”

The club revealed Monday that it has appointed Tom Soehn—director of soccer operations for Whitecaps FC and former MLS head coach of D.C. United—as head coach for the remaining 22 games of the 2011 season.

Thordarson, 59, took over the Vancouver Whitecaps on December 11, 2007. The former striker—who played in Iceland, Sweden, France, and Switzerland during a long career—also coached for two decades with top club sides in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland, as well as with Estonia’s national team, before coming to North America.

Under Thordarson, the Whitecaps made the finals of the United Soccer Leagues’ First Division in 2008 and 2009, winning once. In September 2010, the team announced that he would be handling the reins for Vancouver’s inaugural MLS season in 2011.

During a September 2, 2010, news conference, Barber announced of Thordarson’s hiring: “To have an experienced, knowledgeable, and highly thought of coach in charge of your roster as you move into a new arena is absolutely critical. I am delighted we have someone of that status and that quality in place.”

According to Canadian Press, Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi had the following to say about Thordarson at that 2010 media event: “We’d love to have short-term success [but] what we don’t want to do is try and produce an instant winner by sacrificing the initiatives that involve player development and getting young players in and having them grow with our club.

“Our plan is to build slowly, and he’s proven he’s prepared to use the young players.”

The Whitecaps' next game is Wednesday, June 1, on the road against Chivas USA.

******************

Whitecaps jump the gun with Thordarson

In a sense, the Vancouver Whitecaps had no decision BUT to fire coach Teitur Thordarson on Monday.

A glorious 4-2 victory before the hometown crowd against Toronto FC on the opening day of the season was a sign that maybe the Whitecaps would overachieve in their debut MLS campaign.

An 11-game winless streak ensued, though, the most recent setback occurring this past weekend in a 1-1 draw against the visiting New York Red Bulls, and it only became a matter of when - and not if - Thordarson's time would come.

This is hardly a unique case of a coach getting fired following a poor string of results. If anything it is symptomatic of a greater disease within the modern game.

We all marvel at how Sir Alex Ferguson has remained at the helm of Manchester United for a quarter of a century, especially when he could have easily been axed back in 1990 when his position at the club became tenuous. Management, however, kept the faith and was duly rewarded for its patience.

Those days are long gone. Today, patience is viewed as a sign weakness by club chairmen, and going two months without winning a game in this "results now" era amounts to a death sentence for coaches.

A pity really, especially in Thordarson's case, because he didn't deserve to be let go.

Dealt a tough hand

A rash of injuries (most notably to captain Jay DeMerit), suspensions, international call ups and just bad luck made Thordarson's job all the more difficult. Yet, the Icelandic tactician still managed to put out a team week after week that was anything but a soft touch.

Although the MLS standings indicate otherwise, the Whitecaps are not a 1-6-5 team. They are better than their record. Much better.

Vancouver was competitive in every game this season under Thordarson - including a 3-1 defeat in Houston, its only two-goal loss - and has shown more consistency on the field than TFC, who are a much worse than their 2-6-5 record.

As for character, well, the Reds could also learn a lesson or two from their compatriots.

A 3-0 deficit at home to Kansas City was wiped out with a trio of goals late in the game to earn a remarkable draw. And then there was the San Jose encounter, where a valiant comeback effort was rewarded with an injury-time goal to salvage a point.

Hard to imagine Aron Winter's beleaguered squad showing that some kind of heart this season.

Tactical rigidity

It has not, of course, been all smooth sailing for the Whitecaps, and Thordarson deservedly shoulders some of the blame for the lack of on-field success.

Like Winter, Thordarson was his own worst enemy, rigid in his tactics to a fault - the prime example being the deployment of Swiss playmaker Davide Chiumiento on the wings, instead of in the middle behind the striker where he would be more dangerous and effective.

Whitecaps CEO Paul Barber said Monday the time was right to make the coaching change because it allows Tom Soehn, the club's GM and Thordarson's replacement, enough time to steer the team into the playoffs.

You have to admire the Whitecaps' ambition - if not their brains.

Yes, the Whitecaps sit in the Western Conference basement, but they are only six points out of a playoff spot with a 22 games remaining in an 18-team league where 10 clubs advance to the post-season.

Letting Thordarson go now, after 12 games, reeks of desperation.

It's also incredibly short-sighted, and betrays the previously and publically stated philosophy of club president Bobby Lenarduzzi of wanting to build slowly and not trade instant success at the expense of long-term franchise growth.

The Whitecaps organization has made few mistakes since being granted an MLS expansion franchise in 2009.

This is a mistake.

****************

[Grizzly]

It is really hard to figure out what the plan is in Vancouver. Thordarson was not a world class coach but he was at the least a competent one and certainly capable of leading the Caps through their first few years in MLS but was let go prematurely. One had the impression the Caps management never thought Thorardson was a good enough coach for MLS and were just waiting to fire him once the inevitable expansion team difficulties surfaced. But then they replace him with Soehn who had a mixed record as coach and not a very good reputation and then with the very young and without MLS experience Rennie.

Rennie has been far from the wonderboy he was promoted as and even dismantled the fairly good team he inherited. He hasn't exactly ingratiated himself with us either with being more interested in signing Scottish and former Carolina players than developing Canadian talent. I am certainly happy that Montreal lost out on the effort to sign him because I would take either Marsh or Schallibaum over him by far. And while I will admit he had success in Carolina I can't say I ever liked how his teams played.

A firing now might be a bit more premature but with a few more losses the Caps may have to do something if they want to salvage their season. And while one never likes to see coaches fired too often, I don't really see a big long-term plan in place from Rennie that should be preserved.

Why is it that Canadian clubs seem to have such a hard time with the idea of bringing in management and coaches with a long record of success at MLS or a similar level?

[squizz1402635577]

A fourth coach in less than three seasons? That would be a TFC-esque pace.

[canadianfoot]

But here is another question if whitecaps lose or say tie LAX, Portland and NYRB but manage to win the Voyageurs Cup will Martin Rennie stay? Will winning the Voyaguers cup be enough?

[tmcmurph]

I hope the Caps don't fire him. While I question some of his decisions and tactics I have to admit he is a good coach. Our problem is really quite simple. We can't score often enough. Finishing. No matter who or what combination he puts up top we just can't get the ball in the back of the net. Lots of chances but no goals. Sucks to be us right now. It seems as if all our forwards are cold at the same time and our midfield isn't filling the net either.

To be honest coaches are not hired or fired based on V's Cup/CCL results. They are hired and fired based on MLS league results.

[Grizzly]

Look on the bright side Caps fans! You have one more win and two more points than TFC!

[tmcmurph]

Look on the bright side Caps fans! You have one more win and two more points than TFC!

Groan

Why did I suspect it would be you (Mr look at us in first place) to point that out? The battle for the bottom is not where we want to be.

Will the impact take first in the East Conf over the whole season? One hell of an accomplishment if you can. I mean second year in the league and pulling that off would be huge. If you do count on lots of MLS teams sending scouts to Italy

[Grizzly]

Groan

Why did I suspect it would be you (Mr look at us in first place) to point that out? The battle for the bottom is not where we want to be.

Will the impact take first in the East Conf over the whole season? One hell of an accomplishment if you can. I mean second year in the league and pulling that off would be huge. If you do count on lots of MLS teams sending scouts to Italy

To be honest I am not sure how long the Impact can continue like this at the top of the league. I think we will make the playoffs and have a good team but a lot of our games are not that convincing. Even while it was disappointing to lose the victory against San Jose in extra time they outplayed us for the whole match despite falling behind 2-0. We have a style of being solid at the back but letting the opposition have the ball a lot and surviving until we counter and score against the run of play. Some sort of hybrid Italian/Swiss/German type of system. I am not sure how long that system will work before we get less lucky and teams learn how to play against it.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Much of the panic is from fair weather supporters and critics who really aren't paying attention to the past 3 seasons, much less anything before this. We've had two woeful appearances this season in 11 matches. In the first instance, at FCD, Rennie took the blame. Yesterday, he rightly threw the performance back to the players. Lost in this, are 3-4 good performances, 5-6 decent performances. Last season, despite grinding out some early results, the club was not playing as well as it is today. I firmly believe this. We've lost Jay DeMerit, Kenny Miller, and Omar Salgado for most of the season. We've also played some of the top clubs in the West multiple times. Both factors are reflected in the record to date.

To state that Rennie dismantled a good team he inherited is a total farce. He sold Dede to Zurich after the player wouldn't sign a contract extension. He freed up a DP spot, cleared salary, and received TFC's first pick in this year's draft for Hassli -a striker who was scoring less frequently than Corey Hertzog and Tommy Heinemann. Yes Barry Robson and Martin Bonjour didn't work out, but he also brought in YP Lee, Jun Marques Davidson, Darren Mattocks, and Kenny Miller. Players who have all contributed to varying degrees.

And although Canadian players don't feature prominently in the first team, he's taken Russell Teibert from a winger going nowhere in MLS under Tom Soehn, to a starting member of our central midfield. Teibert has earned his way onto the squad, after a significant investment in his development by all members of the current Caps coaching staff. Rennie has also overseen the the loan relationship with Charleston, where Bryce Alderson and Ben Fisk are getting professional minutes. Meanwhile players such as Sam Adekugbe, Jackson Farmer, Brody Huitema, Yassin Essa, Sean Melvin, etc. have all featured in an expanded reserves season that the Caps coaching staff have put together with local NCAA and CIS schools. Rennie is behind all of this.

Let's see how the Voyageurs Cup goes before we start the hand wringing and smug judgements. Once we know our place in the CCL, we can better determine the significance of the the Cascadia Cup and other league matches.

[canadianfoot]

Fair Enough for me what you just said but truth is Media and Casual fans want Wins and results now. They don't look at hey we lost 3guys that are in our regular starting 11. Also with the FO trying to fill seats at BC place those results aren't convincing. Look at TT he also had a **** load of ties, and a worst squad yet they yanked the rug from under his feet. You said MLS results matter and Vcup not soo much? I think Joey Saputo realized what kind of a gold mine the CCL can be with proper marketing I believe the Santos Laguna game brought in close to 1million into the teams pockets. I am not saying change Rennie right away but there must be a couple a heads thinking how far do we go?

At the end easier to change a head coach than to change your roster

[Grizzly]

Much of the panic is from fair weather supporters and critics who really aren't paying attention to the past 3 seasons, much less anything before this. We've had two woeful appearances this season in 11 matches. In the first instance, at FCD, Rennie took the blame. Yesterday, he rightly threw the performance back to the players. Lost in this, are 3-4 good performances, 5-6 decent performances. Last season, despite grinding out some early results, the club was not playing as well as it is today. I firmly believe this. We've lost Jay DeMerit, Kenny Miller, and Omar Salgado for most of the season. We've also played some of the top clubs in the West multiple times. Both factors are reflected in the record to date.

To state that Rennie dismantled a good team he inherited is a total farce. He sold Dede to Zurich after the player wouldn't sign a contract extension. He freed up a DP spot, cleared salary, and received TFC's first pick in this year's draft for Hassli -a striker who was scoring less frequently than Corey Hertzog and Tommy Heinemann. Yes Barry Robson and Martin Bonjour didn't work out, but he also brought in YP Lee, Jun Marques Davidson, Darren Mattocks, and Kenny Miller. Players who have all contributed to varying degrees.

And although Canadian players don't feature prominently in the first team, he's taken Russell Teibert from a winger going nowhere in MLS under Tom Soehn, to a starting member of our central midfield. Teibert has earned his way onto the squad, after a significant investment in his development by all members of the current Caps coaching staff. Rennie has also overseen the the loan relationship with Charleston, where Bryce Alderson and Ben Fisk are getting professional minutes. Meanwhile players such as Sam Adekugbe, Jackson Farmer, Brody Huitema, Yassin Essa, Sean Melvin, etc. have all featured in an expanded reserves season that the Caps coaching staff have put together with local NCAA and CIS schools. Rennie is behind all of this.

Let's see how the Voyageurs Cup goes before we start the hand wringing and smug judgements. Once we know our place in the CCL, we can better determine the significance of the the Cascadia Cup and other league matches.

I have seen so many clubs who lost and looked good doing it. Often that was a recipe for continued losing because no changes were made. I am not saying the Caps should panic but Rennie needs to get some wins in the near future.

Without getting into too many details, yours is a highly subjective analysis of his moves giving him credit for some things that anyone would have done (ie. Mattocks and Wenger were everyone's 1-2 and when the Impact picked one the other was the obvious choice) and claiming he is responsible for developing young players when the whole league has started working with USL and loaning out players. Some of the positives are very overstated, (Miller for example is a complete negative for me) and some of the negatives are very understated, I remember the Chiumento situation being a lot more complicated than a guy simply refusing to sign a contract.

[narduch]

Vancouver was pretty awful in the second half of last season. One has to wonder if this is just a continuation of that trend.

Still think its too early for them to hit the panic button. But the time is drawing close if the results continue like this.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I have seen so many clubs who lost and looked good doing it. Often that was a recipe for continued losing because no changes were made. I am not saying the Caps should panic but Rennie needs to get some wins in the near future.

Without getting into too many details, yours is a highly subjective analysis of his moves giving him credit for some things that anyone would have done (ie. Mattocks and Wenger were everyone's 1-2 and when the Impact picked one the other was the obvious choice) and claiming he is responsible for developing young players when the whole league has started working with USL and loaning out players. Some of the positives are very overstated, (Miller for example is a complete negative for me) and some of the negatives are very understated, I remember the Chiumento situation being a lot more complicated than a guy simply refusing to sign a contract.

The point is not that the Caps are looking good when losing. They are not, save maybe the Chivas and Houston matches in stretches. The point is that last season they looked bad, despite picking up some results. The opener against Montreal was literally the best performance of the season, which is likely shaping some of your view.

Whether *you* like Miller or not, or think the Chiumiento situation is a conspiracy is irrelevant. The point is that Martin Rennie is able to attract better players than any of his counterparts. The only players Teitur ever recruited were Marlon James and Wesley Charles after watching SVG play Canada!

If you don't like Miller, Nigel Reo-Coker is case in point. He's the midfield general you need in MLS or any league. Unlike Dede, he works his ass off. He came to the Caps specifically to play for Rennie. He stated this. Andy O'Brien said something very similar. These are players with a combined 500+ games in the Premier League judging the manager. I'll defer to their opinion on this, thanks.

[Trillium]

The only players Teitur ever recruited were Marlon James and Wesley Charles after watching SVG play Canada!

It seems both TFC and Whitecaps have not understood or not devoted or cannot get plugged into some type of good quality scouting process, its seems to me that when you bring a player in to a pro club it cannot just be on seeing him in video on YouTube or a one game live event, you have to see the player over numerous games, in varying situations you need to understand the players intelligence or lack of, in other words you need to have good book on the player.

Its clear NHL hockey does this with a scouting combine and the junior teams are looked at even the Junior B and down to the Midgets, players are tracked and rated, they go up a down based on what they do, is this happening in any organised way for TFC or Whitecaps ?

I am pretty sure TFC has no scout in Northeast Brasil, or in Uraguay, or indeed anyone scouting in Ontario on a regular basis.

Is the same true out west ... ?

[youllneverwalkalone]

Is the same true out west ... ?

To a degree. Carl Robinson spent some time in Honduras, and they've signed Johnny Leveron as a result. Despite being their captain at the London Olympics, my sense is that Hondurans don't really rate him. He is very slow. Though he looks to be quite smart and good with the ball, two qualities lacking amongst many of our CBs.

Rennie has been heavily criticized for signing Robson and Miller based on their SPL resume. He's also been heavily criticized for signing too many players from his NASL Railhawks.

[madmonte]

I honestly think the Whitecaps have a better team than the results are showing. Their midfield is doing an amazing job, they just need to figure out which striker up front is actually going to deliver for them, that's their problem right now. That and Demerit being injured in the back. Give them a few more games I think some good results are yet to come. Hopefully. That's the thing about sports, if you aren't dominant there's always the chance of a loss. Luckily, unlike TFC, they haven't been dominatED, which has been suggested in this thread, and I agree with.

But they definitely need to figure out who, apart from Camilo who needs to keep starting, who is going to score those goals up there.

[RS]

Per Kevin Payne, TFC watched Matias Laba in Argentina numerous times before deciding to sign him. IIRC, he said Onstad, O'Leary and Payne all saw him play on separate occasions, and that Onstad watched him at least four times.

TFC also has numerous scouts in greater Toronto and southern Ontario (focusing on the academy aged kids, obviously), and has had a dedicated scout in the USA in the past. There may be more that I'm unaware of.

All of that said, Payne/Nelsen said that the network was lacking when they took over.

I'm assuming the other teams have similar networks.

[canadianfoot]

Well +3points for the Whitecaps tonight with a fenomenal performance from Russel Teibert 2goals in a 3-1 WIN against LA Galaxy. Let's hope it's not a 1time thing but they can gather 7pts in their 3home matches.