ASA Debate on no scores and no standings

[Macksam]

I saw CTV news last night talk about how Ontario is all set to drop scores and standing. I couldn't find that video. However, I found this one:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=894055

They really don't "get it" though. They don't know why it's being implemented.

[Tuscan]

Did you expect them to? These are people who get paid to skim information into a sensationalist story that will grab the attention of the masses. All they're trying to do is spit out the first story that has a bit of flash or conflict to it.

[narduch]

Its not that they don't get it. They don't give a ****.

Parents aren't going to care about developing players for the men's national team. They just want little Johnny to have an hour of exercise a couple of times a week.

To many people, not keeping score and not having winners and losers is a sign of the downfall of society.

I'm not saying I agree with that mentality myself, to be clear.

[jpg75]

TBH, I don't think keeping score is so much the problem as keeping standings and having playoffs to determine a champion. Let the kids go out there and play every week and forget about pro-rel or champions.

[Protega]

I honestly don't know where this "no scores, no standings" idea came from, but I think this will be a disaster that will set Canadian soccer back for years. If the idea is that children are quitting soccer because they are afraid of making mistakes or because they are on a losing team, I seriously doubt that this will fix the problem. This new format is only beginning, and I am already hearing children (yes, children, not just their parents) as young as 7 and 8 complaining about the lack of games (everyone knows the scores, whether the OSA wants to admit it or not). I could be wrong, but I think this will push the kids who have to decide between soccer and hockey to go to hockey.

If the argument is that the proportion of practices to games is too low, you don't fix it by cutting games - you increase practice time. If the argument is that other countries don't keep scores or standings, I'd like to know which countries these are. Everyone loves to hold Spain and Barca as the perfect examples, so here is a link showing the standings for Barca's U-8 team.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/formative/classification-prebenjamin

Yes, that's 21 games so far, with scores, standings and all. And many other countries have similar systems.

This no scores or standings format will be a disaster.

[Bill Spiers]

Everyone loves to hold Spain and Barca as the perfect examples, so here is a link showing the standings for Barca's U-8 team.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/formative/classification-prebenjamin

I assume you have a good understanding of the system in Spain and know that 'prebenjamin' means U-8. (I wouldn't)

Can you help me out with the other classifications shown on the FCB web site. What age groups do they represent?

Benjamin ?

Alevin ?

Infantil ?

Cadete ?

Juvenil ?

[Protega]

I assume you have a good understanding of the system in Spain and know that 'prebenjamin' means U-8. (I wouldn't)

Can you help me out with the other classifications shown on the FCB web site. What age groups do they represent?

Benjamin ?

Alevin ?

Infantil ?

Cadete ?

Juvenil ?

It actually may as well be in Chinese for me, but the various team pages do list the players' dates of birth. The prebenjamin team are 2005's.

I can recall reading something a couple of years ago suggesting that the changes here in Canada are based on what countries like Spain are doing, and that in Spain kids don't start playing in organized leagues until the age of 15, which I knew then was a load of crap because I think that's the age that many European countries begin their national youth leagues. It's just always seemed to me that these changes are based on someone's misunderstanding of how things are being done in other countries. And if that is the case, they need to step back and think about what they're doing before going too far down this road.

[Bill Spiers]

It actually may as well be in Chinese for me, but the various team pages do list the players' dates of birth. The prebenjamin team are 2005's.

I can recall reading something a couple of years ago suggesting that the changes here in Canada are based on what countries like Spain are doing, and that in Spain kids don't start playing in organized leagues until the age of 15, which I knew then was a load of crap because I think that's the age that many European countries begin their national youth leagues. It's just always seemed to me that these changes are based on someone's misunderstanding of how things are being done in other countries. And if that is the case, they need to step back and think about what they're doing before going too far down this road.

Thanks! The team pages gave me the information I was looking for.

The main change being proposed in Canada - which is based on comparisons with other countries - is the small-sided game for the younger ages. However, it does seem that more is being included in the "this is what other countries are doing" heading than is actually true. Having said that, the "no scores, no standings" philosophy has been adopted by a number of countries - England and the U.S. being two that quickly come to mind.

[Trillium]

I honestly don't know where this "no scores, no standings" idea came from, but I think this will be a disaster that will set Canadian soccer back for years. If the idea is that children are quitting soccer because they are afraid of making mistakes or because they are on a losing team, I seriously doubt that this will fix the problem. This new format is only beginning, and I am already hearing children (yes, children, not just their parents) as young as 7 and 8 complaining about the lack of games (everyone knows the scores, whether the OSA wants to admit it or not). I could be wrong, but I think this will push the kids who have to decide between soccer and hockey to go to hockey.

If the argument is that the proportion of practices to games is too low, you don't fix it by cutting games - you increase practice time. If the argument is that other countries don't keep scores or standings, I'd like to know which countries these are. Everyone loves to hold Spain and Barca as the perfect examples, so here is a link showing the standings for Barca's U-8 team.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/formative/classification-prebenjamin

Yes, that's 21 games so far, with scores, standings and all. And many other countries have similar systems.

This no scores or standings format will be a disaster.

You might want to go back in time and read this blog... http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/jason_de_vos/?id=405972

It helps explain where the LTPD program comes from.

[elmateo]

I don't think the OSA is saying that the kids wont keep track of the scores; this has always been directed at the coaches and parents as necessary for shifting their mentalities towards skill development. The 'controversy' is actually an important opportunity for the OSA to continue to push for more coach's training and a focus on skill development. If the only thing that was happening is taking away goals, you would have a point, but you have to approach this as a major culture shift within young player development. Without a major shock to the system, we could easily mouth words of 'skill development' only to succumb to the continued problems of letting the largest kids on the team dominate because that is what made everyone happy. There is now a major disconnection between what was being done and what we can possibly do in terms of youth soccer; it is true that the OSA could fail but I think they have a much better opportunity now to emphasize a major cultural shift in youth soccer because the disconnection that has been made from the past.

I really do see the arguments against as whining and complaining because they rarely articulate how skill development could be forefronted under the previous 'competitive' model; and often the comments continue to highlight how distracted Canadian soccer has been in terms of developing player skills. Whether that is because there were goals and tables, I don't necessarily think so, but obviously the culture of 'winning' has been more important than 'development' - which has hurt our chances of winning in the long run. We need a major change; taking away goals and tables is effective as a symbol to say "we are changing" and if you are part of the soccer community "you need to change too".

[Protega]

I'm unconvinced by that blog - just his opinion without any facts or references to back up why it should help in skill development.

I can't see how removing scores and standings will make any difference, because as I think we all agree - everyone knows the score and people can generally tell which team was better. And those are the clubs that the top players will continue to gravitate towards.

I personally think that the biggest issue here with player development is that clubs have no incentive to develop players that won't win them games and trophies. And you can take away scores and standings at the younger ages, but at some point you have to start keeping score and then you're right back to the same issue. In Europe, it is in the clubs' interests to develop the players and even identify players who may be physically smaller but have more potential, etc. because they are ultimately compensated for it - either by signing them to a contract in the future, later selling the player, or even if the player signs with another club (clubs are entitled to a certain amount of compensation for every year a player spent in their youth system). Here, we don't have that system and therefore no real incentive for the clubs to identify those players. I think it could be imposed by requiring competitive teams to have a minimum number players on the roster born later in the year (i.e., at least 4 players born after Sept. 30th or something like that).

[Protega]

I should probably also clarify - I in no way think that removing scores or standings will hurt any individual player's development. In other words, if my son has three practices and one game per week, removing scores from the game shouldn't have any impact (good or bad). If you increase the practices to four per week, I would expect it would help his development and if you cut the practices to twice per week, I would expect it to hider his development (assuming proper coaching, etc.).

Where I think no scores will have a negative impact is that soccer will probably lose kids to hockey, such that we won't be drawing on all of the most athletic kids. Obviously I don't have any facts to back that up, other than grumblings I have been hearing from children (in many cases, it's the kids that play both soccer and hockey seem to be leaning towards hockey more because it's easier to get excited about playing games). This has been particularly true at the U-8 and U-7 levels, where there really aren't any leagues throughout the winter and the U-9 league has imposed restrictions on kids playing up (at least here in Ottawa).

I also don't think trying to replicate what England is doing is the best course, since they don't face the same issues as we do. Over there, soccer is #1 by far (not to mention that I wouldn't consider England to be the poster boy for skill development, but that's another issue). I would be interested to know what they do in Sweden, where there is likely alot of competition between soccer and hockey to attract the most athletic kids. The climate is similar as well, so they also face the winter issues that we do here.

[Guest Ed]

Am I missing something? Is the ultimate goal of LTPD to develop teams that can compete on the world stage or not?? If not, then go ahead, get your kids out playing kick about with no regard to results. House league / full participation "uber alles".

As a coach, my goal is to help develop skills and team play, but more importantly, with the many options available to boys and girls out there, to develop a PASSION for the game, a PASSION for playing AND WINNING together. A PASSION for scoring goals, a PASSION for defending. It's impossible to do that in a 'cooperative' environment. Competition is key and the kids that get it will do well. Those that don't drop out in their teens.

[Macksam]

I honestly don't know where this "no scores, no standings" idea came from, but I think this will be a disaster that will set Canadian soccer back for years. If the idea is that children are quitting soccer because they are afraid of making mistakes or because they are on a losing team, I seriously doubt that this will fix the problem. This new format is only beginning, and I am already hearing children (yes, children, not just their parents) as young as 7 and 8 complaining about the lack of games (everyone knows the scores, whether the OSA wants to admit it or not). I could be wrong, but I think this will push the kids who have to decide between soccer and hockey to go to hockey.

If the argument is that the proportion of practices to games is too low, you don't fix it by cutting games - you increase practice time. If the argument is that other countries don't keep scores or standings, I'd like to know which countries these are. Everyone loves to hold Spain and Barca as the perfect examples, so here is a link showing the standings for Barca's U-8 team.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/formative/classification-prebenjamin

Yes, that's 21 games so far, with scores, standings and all. And many other countries have similar systems.

This no scores or standings format will be a disaster.

Case in point, here is another individual who doesnt "get it"

I'm unconvinced by that blog - just his opinion without any facts or references to back up why it should help in skill development.

I can't see how removing scores and standings will make any difference, because as I think we all agree - everyone knows the score and people can generally tell which team was better. And those are the clubs that the top players will continue to gravitate towards.

I take it your new to Canadian soccer. I'll explain in simple terms.

Like other have already said, this is directed at the coaches. They are the ones that implement kick and rush tactics to win games. This mandate will prevent them from doing that. They won't employ these terrible tactics to win games because they won't be recorded. Their focus will shift from winning at all costs to skill development in players.

[Protega]

Case in point, here is another individual who doesnt "get it"

I take it your new to Canadian soccer. I'll explain in simple terms.

Like other have already said, this is directed at the coaches. They are the ones that implement kick and rush tactics to win games. This mandate will prevent them from doing that. They won't employ these terrible tactics to win games because they won't be recorded. Their focus will shift from winning at all costs to skill development in players.

Don't worry, you don't have to simplify things. And no, I'm not new to Canadian soccer - I've been around it going on four decades.

Do you really think that not recording scores will actually change people's mentalities and take away their competitive nature? As I've said, people still know the scores, even if they aren't being recorded. And it is human nature to want to win and even show up your oponent. Case in point - I saw a U-11 game this winter in a league where scores are not recorded. The coaches had to be separated after the game because one coach took exception to the other coach's celebration after the game (even though no scores were kept). And these teams were not playing kick and rush tactics - they were two very skilled teams, each with players who have already been to Europe for trials.

Your explanation of the logic behind the changes seems to suggest that it isn't based on any empirical evidence, but rather on someone's assumption about how coaches will react to the changes. And I'm saying that if that's the case, they need to really think about this before getting too far into the new system.

[Macksam]

Don't worry, you don't have to simplify things. And no, I'm not new to Canadian soccer - I've been around it going on four decades.

Do you really think that not recording scores will actually change people's mentalities and take away their competitive nature? As I've said, people still know the scores, even if they aren't being recorded. And it is human nature to want to win and even show up your oponent. Case in point - I saw a U-11 game this winter in a league where scores are not recorded. The coaches had to be separated after the game because one coach took exception to the other coach's celebration after the game (even though no scores were kept). And these teams were not playing kick and rush tactics - they were two very skilled teams, each with players who have already been to Europe for trials.

Your explanation of the logic behind the changes seems to suggest that it isn't based on any empirical evidence, but rather on someone's assumption about how coaches will react to the changes. And I'm saying that if that's the case, they need to really think about this before getting too far into the new system.

You just proved my point. It seems to me they were allowed to play very skillfully because the scores were not kept. No one is saying the players aren't going to be competitive. They are still going to be competitive. However, now, they will be competitve on their own terms and not by grown ups barking instructions at them.

[Guest Ed]

You just proved my point. It seems to me they were allowed to play very skillfully because the scores were not kept. No one is saying the players aren't going to be competitive. They are still going to be competitive. However, now, they will be competitve on their own terms and not by grown ups barking instructions at them.

They were skillful because scores were not kept?? That doesn't pass the smell test.

[CDNFootballer]

Am I missing something? Is the ultimate goal of LTPD to develop teams that can compete on the world stage or not?? If not, then go ahead, get your kids out playing kick about with no regard to results. House league / full participation "uber alles".

As a coach, my goal is to help develop skills and team play, but more importantly, with the many options available to boys and girls out there, to develop a PASSION for the game, a PASSION for playing AND WINNING together. A PASSION for scoring goals, a PASSION for defending. It's impossible to do that in a 'cooperative' environment. Competition is key and the kids that get it will do well. Those that don't drop out in their teens.

Exactly! This "no scores no standings" is utter stupidity and definitly won't help develop Canadian players.

[jpg75]

They were skillful because scores were not kept?? That doesn't pass the smell test.

It's not the scores being kept, it's standings being kept for promotion/relegation reasons and playoffs. For example my U10 house league boys a few years ago were playing in the semi-finals and our opponents decided to play a 4-0-2 formation with long ball tactics to their two best players up front while bunkering in numbers around their 10 yard box. PLayers don't develop this way.

Anyways, i think this is all a bit of a goose chase. The real reason we don't develop skilled players is because hardly any kids play pick-up ball with their friends for hours upon hours, day after day for their entire childhood.

[Macksam]

Anyways, i think this is all a bit of a goose chase. The real reason we don't develop skilled players is because hardly any kids play pick-up ball with their friends for hours upon hours, day after day for their entire childhood.

Except in Brampton

[jpg75]

Except in Brampton

...and parts of Scarborough Hence why so many of our players develop from those areas...

[tmcmurph]

Anyways, i think this is all a bit of a goose chase. The real reason we don't develop skilled players is because hardly any kids play pick-up ball with their friends for hours upon hours, day after day for their entire childhood.

+1^

Time spent with ball on foot is crucial.

To be honest the best coaches my son had were foreign ones. South American and European. Sure winning was more fun and you'd see them adjust shifts and play to get the winning goal or defend but everyone got better. Practices were fun and creative. The native Canadian coaches were a mixed bag. Most were hockey coach types (think "No sticks or pucks, now skate, skate, skate!!!). Constantly running kids without a ball to dribble or pass because "conditioning is the most important thing". And we wonder why our players grow up without good first touch.

[elmateo]

It's not the scores being kept, it's standings being kept for promotion/relegation reasons and playoffs. For example my U10 house league boys a few years ago were playing in the semi-finals and our opponents decided to play a 4-0-2 formation with long ball tactics to their two best players up front while bunkering in numbers around their 10 yard box. PLayers don't develop this way.

Anyways, i think this is all a bit of a goose chase. The real reason we don't develop skilled players is because hardly any kids play pick-up ball with their friends for hours upon hours, day after day for their entire childhood.

I think we've all seen this at youth soccer in one way or another. I had a coach yell at my team "go for goals" whenever certain kid touched the ball; that was his coaching. What is useful about that? At least people are saying SKILL DEVELOPMENT is the priority for all the adults involved; that is why the tables and scoring are being taken away - to say to all the adults: we are not doing a good job with skills and we are being distracted from where our kids need to be.

Frankly Ed your comment is the type of person I see distracted while coaching young kids; maybe you aren't and I apologize but I've seen and heard so many who are.

Just to point out for people, competition is always present in the game - this is just hyperbolic nonsense. Scoring a goal is still the fundamental principle of the game. Scoring a goal is the most pure form of competition the game provides. Now the focus is on the continual competition to make or prevent a single goal. Over and over and over again; continually re-set after every goal, rather than the competition to get a score line and move up the table. In the face of that I don't see what is so important about the score line and table but I can understand how getting rid of both is sending a signal to adults to change their attitudes in a significant way.

[Trillium]

I honestly don't know where this "no scores, no standings" idea came from, but I think this will be a disaster that will set Canadian soccer back for years. If the idea is that children are quitting soccer because they are afraid of making mistakes or because they are on a losing team, I seriously doubt that this will fix the problem. This new format is only beginning, and I am already hearing children (yes, children, not just their parents) as young as 7 and 8 complaining about the lack of games (everyone knows the scores, whether the OSA wants to admit it or not). I could be wrong, but I think this will push the kids who have to decide between soccer and hockey to go to hockey.

If the argument is that the proportion of practices to games is too low, you don't fix it by cutting games - you increase practice time. If the argument is that other countries don't keep scores or standings, I'd like to know which countries these are. Everyone loves to hold Spain and Barca as the perfect examples, so here is a link showing the standings for Barca's U-8 team.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/formative/classification-prebenjamin

Yes, that's 21 games so far, with scores, standings and all. And many other countries have similar systems.

This no scores or standings format will be a disaster.

Did you look at the standings ?

Bon Pastur at the bottom of the rankings . goals for 26 and against 200, in 21 games .... so roughly 8 to 1 losses in twenty games, did those benjamin players learn much in that competition ?

1 Mercat Nou Magoria A 60 21 20 0 1 159 24 10 10 0 0 87 10 11 10 0 1 72 14

2 Lloreda A 58 21 19 1 1 173 26 10 9 0 1 83 13 11 10 1 0 90 13

3 FC Barcelona 50 21 16 2 3 148 45 10 8 0 2 75 19 11 8 2 1 73 26

4 Catalonia B 49 21 16 1 4 140 25 11 7 1 3 64 14 10 9 0 1 76 11

5 Sant Andreu E 41 21 13 2 6 112 41 10 6 2 2 54 18 11 7 0 4 58 23

6 Cinc Copes C 40 21 13 1 7 89 50 10 6 1 3 41 26 11 7 0 4 48 24

7 Can Buxeres A 38 21 12 2 7 104 49 11 6 1 4 48 29 10 6 1 3 56 20

8 Badalona E 37 21 12 1 8 105 78 11 6 1 4 50 37 10 6 0 4 55 41

9 Unificación Llefia C 29 21 9 2 10 69 78 11 5 1 5 41 39 10 4 1 5 28 39

10 Júpiter C 23 21 7 2 12 46 117 10 4 1 5 16 48 11 3 1 7 30 69

11 Sant Gabriel F 18 21 5 3 13 67 126 11 2 1 8 28 71 10 3 2 5 39 55

12 Alzamora C 17 21 5 2 14 43 121 10 3 0 7 20 62 11 2 2 7 23 59

13 Hospitalet Atlétic B 13 21 4 1 16 41 110 11 2 1 8 19 49 10 2 0 8 22 61

14 Espanyolista Manigua B 12 20 4 0 16 53 121 11 2 0 9 33 69 9 2 0 7 20 52

15 Martinenc D 3 20 1 0 19 28 192 10 1 0 9 14 107 10 0 0 10 14 85

16 Bon Pastor C 3 21 1 0 20 26 200 10 1 0 9 13 106 11 0 0 11 13 94

[Trillium]

Don't worry, you don't have to simplify things. And no, I'm not new to Canadian soccer - I've been around it going on four decades.

Do you really think that not recording scores will actually change people's mentalities and take away their competitive nature? As I've said, people still know the scores, even if they aren't being recorded. And it is human nature to want to win and even show up your oponent. Case in point - I saw a U-11 game this winter in a league where scores are not recorded. The coaches had to be separated after the game because one coach took exception to the other coach's celebration after the game (even though no scores were kept). And these teams were not playing kick and rush tactics - they were two very skilled teams, each with players who have already been to Europe for trials.

Your explanation of the logic behind the changes seems to suggest that it isn't based on any empirical evidence, but rather on someone's assumption about how coaches will react to the changes. And I'm saying that if that's the case, they need to really think about this before getting too far into the new system.

If you have been involved in Soccer for 40 years in the Ottawa area...then you should know this debate was held two years ago, and the EODSA convinced enough clubs to go with a no score, no standings process, in fact it was the clubs who pushe for it except for one notable exception.

The Horse is out of the barn ... up to u12 winning will de-emphasized, if kids go to hockey at seven and eight they will back to play soccer for life at u14, cause they will burn out of the hockey mileu.

The most competitively driven players who focus on soccer will stay in the system all through and benefit and we will have more talented pool of players to send to OPDL competitions as the roll into place.

The District and Regional leagues will be reformed, the old viewpoints will fade as people see the changes on the pitch.

The change process is underway, some folks wont get it .. they will ether conform or drop out the game as administrators or coaches.