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Should we have sanctioned D-3 football in Ontario in 2013?


Juby

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I have been able to confirm that if either association relents to temporary sanctioning for the CSL 2013 season, it will have no long term consequences for anyones long term plans. This mean if you support a longterm NASL, L1O, CSL, PDL, hypothtical Easton leagues or whatever, it will have no consequences on 2014 except that our guys will have played at the highest level we could provide in 2013.

If you have a huge issue with the CSL, please take your time to answer this question fairly, being for a season does not in any way signify you approve of the CSL at all. It would only be admitting that you would prefer to see a 2013 season over no 2013 season.

I'm trying to simplify this so we can put aside all the bias and just ask 'Should we play at a D-3 level or not?' but I will make a third option to make this even easier. That said, this isn't the place to reengineer the data or change the questions, we will be debating on our poll stance (there is a perfectly good crazy thread for general stuff also high up on the queue).

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Guest GoGreen

Have to say TFC Academy going to OSL Elite division for the 2013 season as is the rumor, indicates there is unlikely to be a CSL season in 2013.

Who knows? Not having a D-3 level league will all depend on what decision makers think about the OSL Elite being a viable option until League 1 Ontario gets sorted.

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Have to say TFC Academy going to OSL Elite division for the 2013 season as is the rumor, indicates there is unlikely to be a CSL season in 2013.

Who knows? Not having a D-3 level league will all depend on what decision makers think about the OSL Elite being a viable option until League 1 Ontario gets sorted.

I'm going to work soon so everyone can have there fun but thank you so much for not giving the bitter answer (mostly just because I think we've argued before). I think Academy has left for good until this is all settled (said and done decision from a monthish ago), I don't think it has any bearing on the question of the overall 2013 season (CSL acknowledged it and continued along).

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Both TFC Academy and the Impact Academy have left the CSL with no plans to return. TFC Academy has (previously -- that being back in the fall I believe?) stated that they would be interested in participating in the L1O, as long as they can continue to have all of their players treated as amateurs, just as they were in the CSL.

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We can't snap our fingers and make a league. Not a well run one anyway.

The CSL blew it, on multiple levels.

It's happening we just have to wait.

Actually I have confirmed that at any moment, either the OSA or CSA could temporarily sanction the CSL without comprimising their current position. Add to that the CSL is going anyway and it is a very easy choice between playing at the d-3ish level this year or not.

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Guest GoGreen

Can anyone run down why the CSA or OSA has not given clear answer on whether the CSL will receive sanctioning yet?

Also no decision or timeline on L1O seems strange.

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Can anyone run down why the CSA or OSA has not given clear answer on whether the CSL will receive sanctioning yet?

Also no decision or timeline on L1O seems strange.

The latest word on L1O was that they would not be ready to go (insufficient teams/clubs ready to the specified standards for 2013) this year, but expected to make a go of it for the 2014 season.

There was talk about the CSL resigning from the CSA, moving back to the OSA (where they were up until 2009, when they moved to the CSA), the four L1O teams that were ready to go joining the CSL for this season under the CSL name, then the teams that met the standards for L1O would move from the CSL over to L1O for next season.

Based on the letters shared, we all have a good idea as to what happened there.

The CSA gave a fairly clear answer as to whether they'd sanction the CSL for 2013 (that answer was "no"). Juby has made statements that the CSA is reconsidering its position (pardon me if I've misstated that). The OSA, on the other hand, despite both the CSL and CSA heads stating that they'd been in discussions with the OSA, has stated that they know nothing of the situation.

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The latest word on L1O was that they would not be ready to go (insufficient teams/clubs ready to the specified standards for 2013) this year, but expected to make a go of it for the 2014 season.

There was talk about the CSL resigning from the CSA, moving back to the OSA (where they were up until 2009, when they moved to the CSA), the four L1O teams that were ready to go joining the CSL for this season under the CSL name, then the teams that met the standards for L1O would move from the CSL over to L1O for next season.

Based on the letters shared, we all have a good idea as to what happened there.

The CSA gave a fairly clear answer as to whether they'd sanction the CSL for 2013 (that answer was "no"). Juby has made statements that the CSA is reconsidering its position (pardon me if I've misstated that). The OSA, on the other hand, despite both the CSL and CSA heads stating that they'd been in discussions with the OSA, has stated that they know nothing of the situation.

I can't say their reconsidering (I can say they can reconsider, but it would be dishonest for me to infer what their thinking). But they did agree in principal that no football at all is generally a bad choice. I am hoping I have simplified this whole issue enough to gnaw at peoples consciences so that inaction no longer seems like a desirable, responsible or effective position.

That OSA bit is generally why I have been so critical of them, I know for sure they haven't been 100% consistent but when I say why, I am speculating of course (I feel it's obvious but I could for sure be wrong, I don't have damning recordings or anything).

Ohh and this poll will only go for 3 weeks. If this mess drags on to kick off, it won't matter if the CSL wins their case for 2013, the whole season will be tainted by credibility issues. This needs to be resolved very soon if there is going to be any legitimate 2013 season. We are nearing a terminal point in this and I really don't want to spend the next six months in an irrational mess (even if I 'won', the season would be tainted and many of us would be miserable from argueing this foolishness.

edit: to GoGreen, the best answer I got was failing standards from Victor Montagliani. I responded that considering there would be no season at all and our guys would be spread out in amateur leagues instead of against one another, then wouldn't a bit of temporary leniency be better then nothing? He had already agreed to pretty much all of that in general terms (no d-3 soccer was the worst case scenario, spreading out players in amateur leagues is a poor choice) so he was fairly agreeable on the rational I was presenting but at the same time completly noncommittal (he made no promises). When we would hit a point were he would either have to specifically say 'I would rather a CSL season over nothing' or 'It'd be best no one in Ontario played D-3 this year', he would indicate that the problem lied with other parties (and I have trouble believing it's completely the CSL, they don't want to be completely eradicated or go rogue in 2014) but he also did not like the suggestion that everyone was pointing fingers. Soon after I kinda just walked away a bit upset (I guess he wouldn't have committed to anything on the spot though) and others wanted to talk to him of course. I'm hoping I made a good passionate impression, I didn't say anything rude, and I got him to admit twice this could all be done without affecting anything in 2014 (no risk, and high reward for players and fans).

They know they can act, I'm establishing that inaction is no accident just in case nobody smartens up, or even just to make this whole thing look pathetic enough for someone to give a half dead piece of roadkill half a chance. So yeah, I personally lobbied the CSA a couple of days ago *fingers crossed* (you can read a more detailed, and annoyingly juby long recounting in the other thread, it's a part of a jubyirrifcally huge post).

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Well there has been a change in developements, at the moment the tally is sadly low (6 people) but decidely pro football (5 in the let the CSL play this year categories).

It now seems there will be arbitration, hopefully what seems to be the early choice on this poll will prevail there as well (let the CSL play this year, they were screwed around a bit and are the only option for 2013, and uphold the CSA's right to run it's ship longterm)

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The tally is currently 9 to 1 for a season amoung people willing to put their name to a vote. It is however 7 - 3 who wants a different option for 2014, I'm moving the angrier stuff over to the crazier thread, sorry for putting it here.

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This is simple. I want development. The CSL has developed very few professional players. Frankly, if your in the CSL you should go to the Universities and play CIS.

The CIS is the existing D3 league.

The CSL has developed quite a few professional players. Besides all the TFC and Impact academy players that have made it to the senior team, this year there is a american named Irwin in MLS who played for Capital City, Osorio of TFC was an SC Toronto player last year, Ademolu went from Windsor to the Cypriot league last year, a White Eagles keeper was sold to a second division austrian team last year and these are just the 2012 changes. Add to that quite a few of the guys we have in europe have early CSL experience (hell, didn't Atiba used to play for the shooters?).

Development is actually one of the few categories the CSL definately succeeds in, over the last few years they were greatly outpacing the local PDL clubs as well (which is where the 'definately better then nothing' point comes from, and I should mention players have played both, PDL, then CSL, Then whathaveyou as well). At the very least by having a united league we get our best guys available against each other.

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The CIS is the existing D3 league.

Saying that demonstrates how out of touch you, and clearly others who would agree with you are.

A D3 league is a league where some or all players are PAID professionals NOT amateur students.

A D3 league has a season that lasts longer than three months of competitive matches.

You are right on one point, we do not need any more amateur leagues.

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I would prefer a new league. Even at the cost of this season. To allow temporary sanction negates what little the statement the action made in the first place.

Huh, I have already confirmed temporarily sanctioning them will have ZERO impact on 2014. 'negates what little statement the action made in the first place'???? The action was to eliminate their league, The league would have to exist in 2014 for anything to be 'negated'. Therefore, it comprimises nothing (no negation) to actuall play a season in 2013.

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Saying that demonstrates how out of touch you, and clearly others who would agree with you are.

A D3 league is a league where some or all players are PAID professionals NOT amateur students.

A D3 league has a season that lasts longer than three months of competitive matches.

You are right on one point, we do not need any more amateur leagues.

Hmm. Maybe I should move on like most other commentators have, but frankly my point is this, for one season, CIS will perform a similarly developmental role. One that I would argue matches or improves upon the CSL. If you are better than that, hit up the NCAA like most Canadian Academies are suggesting.

My reference to D3 has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, to do with professional or not. For me a D3 league is completely based on how does it develop players. MLS Academies are leaving which basically was the last great hope for CSL producing national team players. I have seen the play. Your more likely to see a career ending broken leg than a positive career choice in the CSL.

USL PDL and Pro have their place as a means to get to the CSA sanctioned levels of NASL and MLS. So I like the Highlanders position. Canada needs a real D3 league, it's own D3 league, until that is developed I think the CIS will do just fine.

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My reference to D3 has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, to do with professional or not. For me a D3 league is completely based on how does it develop players.

I guess I should stop beating my head against a brick wall. Maybe one last try.

How a league develops players is directly related to whether it is professional or not. Why is this concept so difficult to understand??!?!?!

You cannot develop professional players of college age or older in an amateur system. They need to be trained by professionals and paid (or at least financially supported) in a professional training schedule to prepare for a bare minimum of 20 games in a season against other professional clubs.

This does not and cannot happen in the CIS or NCAA or CSL or any other amateur league. Creating a false D3 league - "false" because any definition of D3 includes the word "professional" - will get us nowhere.

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Ummm, the tally is still pretty low. This could be for a few of reasons:

A) Maybe it's not hugely popular but I don't think it can be completely this because many people who talk about it aren't voting.

B) People are hesitant to admit take a public stance (I have kinda made the third one difficult to justify but that was kinda the point of the poll).

C) I made the third option unfair. tbh though, I think the only bias I let in was 'participate/enjoy' which still leaves the basicness of the question I think).

Anyway, it's 10 - 2 for a CSL in 2013 as opposed to nothing but 8 - 4 against the CSL for 2014.

edit: I got a hot tip from a CSL 'source' heh, Brantfords out, Mississauga is taking a year out for financial reasons, they say that the academy teams and windsor elected to not participate (I think their gone (especially the academies) but they left themselves the option of returning I think was the point). Burlington SC is the new club but that's old news. 12 teams, that's alright, better then nothing especially if their sanctioned and are the obvious spot for the best players available.

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It's a strawman's poll with the questions intentionally skewing the results.

That's likely a big reason why people aren't responding to it.

It was my goal to seperate no football from temporary CSL sanctioning from approval of the CSL so that we could simplify this away from the poles. I tend to think people find the extremity of their own stance incorrect when they can't just sit in one of two camps, which is kinda the point of the poll (you have to make a firm decision based on the three possible outcomes, not your us vs them side).

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We have a winner.

*sigh* just so people know, Rudi also told me I have to get a hobby and that I'm being counter productive in a certain comments section.

I responded that I have a month to save any sort of season and asked how giving up on a 2013 is productive for getting a 2013 season. I'm just saying this because I don't think the snarkiness is unrelated. (I'm kind expecting a bunch of prominent Vee's to try and tease me out of trying, it's happened before).

I'm sooo sorry that being so against the CSL you don't want to play at all in 2013 isn't a all that great a stance ('I don't like that this poll will out me for my preferences' ahaha). That's the problem with taking an extreme stance, sometimes you can't condone the consequences but you can't possibly break ranks so you bravely...abstain.

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*sigh* just so people know, Rudi also told me I have to get a hobby and that I'm being counter productive in a certain comments section.

It wasn't a "certain" comments section. It was in the comments section of the most recent CSN story on the CSL, where Juby has posted dozens of times.

I responded that I have a month to save any sort of season and asked how giving up on a 2013 is productive for getting a 2013 season. I'm just saying this because I don't think the snarkiness is unrelated. (I'm kind expecting a bunch of prominent Vee's to try and tease me out of trying, it's happened before).

Whatever snarkiness you're sensing from me is most certainly related.

For someone who only has a month to save the CSL season, you spend a ridiculous amount of time engaged in Internet flame wars with anyone who posts a viewpoint that even slightly disagrees with your own. And now you seem to be embarking down that same path with me.

That to me is the very definition of counter-productive.

I'm sooo sorry that being so against the CSL you don't want to play at all in 2013 isn't a all that great a stance ('I don't like that this poll will out me for my preferences' ahaha)

I'm not for or against the CSL, although to me it's fairly obvious that a hiatus or regrouping is probably the minimum needed for that league to get its house in order. Match-fixing was only one of the many problems that plagued the CSL (although it was obviously the biggest and most worrisome), but you're too busy "trying to save the season" to have noticed that.

I won't bother engaging you on this forum past this post, at least not where the CSL is concerned. So take that as a "victory" or whatever, I don't really care. But if I were you, I'd take a break from posting.

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