Canadian players and MLS domestic player rules

[rob.notenboom]

In recent interviews Don Garber has stated that Canadians cannot be considered as domestic in the US due to various laws. He has gone on to say that for Canadians to be counted as domestic, the league would have to treat all other nations as domestic as there would be no way to treat Canadians in one way, and those from a different foreign nation in a another way. I'm curious:

1) Does anyone have a definitive statement that either confirms or refutes this? There have been various rumblings on the board in both directions but I haven't seen or read anything I would call conclusive.

2) Does anyone know of any other situation in the US that compares either to support or refute this assertion?

It's been discussed ad naseum how negatively these rules affect Canadian players and this (IMHO) makes the whole MLS situation suspect. I'm not saying that there aren't benefits to be had, but having Americans and Canadians count equally in the league would be of great benefit.

Apologies if this has been answered in another thread. I think I have read other threads but do not remember a definite answer to the question. With Garber's recent statements, it has spurred me to do a bit of digging.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I heard that interview. He didn't go into detail, as I've heard him do in the past. The detail he omitted is that you can go to congress and seek a special exemption. When last heard him discuss this, Garber diplomatically stated that there weren't enough qualified Canadians to justify the fees to pursue this.

I'm not sure it matters much. The salary cap is here to stay and domestic restriction are on their way out. The latter is a farce with clubs like Seattle getting green cards in less than a year for any foreign player they want. The former will force clubs to keep seeking domestic players. Personally, I'd eliminate foreign restrictions, but exempt homegrown players from the cap on a permanent basis -as long as they are with their club.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I don't know about footballers, but as part of NAFTA, Urban Planers from Canada can work in the US without visas. Not sure if there is a way to incorporate MLS or football into NAFTA.

Also, how is it Canada can have Americans and Canadians listed as domestics? Would our laws be that different?

[TFCfan4life]

This is a complete crock of s-h-I-t. The domestic quota is not a US government imposed restriction. Its an MLS and/or USSF imposed restriction only. Even if they allowed Canadians and americans to count as domestics on US teams, Canadians would still need work permits like Mexicans or English players from the us department of labour which is a completely separate entirety.

If you look at it that way, then you understand that what Garber is saying is a lie. They just don't want to do it because USSF is most likely in their way and in Canada the Canadian teams have forced the CSA to accept just the opposite.

There is your answer. Just look at all the other leagues that don't have a domestic quota restriction. The NHL has something around 2/3 of their players Canadian last time I checked. How can that be possible if the US government would not allow it. I'll tell you how. It's because Don Garber is lying.

[maccaliam]

There is your answer. Just look at all the other leagues that don't have a domestic quota restriction. The NHL has something around 2/3 of their players Canadian last time I checked. How can that be possible if the US government would not allow it. I'll tell you how. It's because Don Garber is lying.

My understanding of the situation is that while I don't know whether it is a lie or not, this isn't a good comparison. NHL has no exemptions for Canadians, they allow all foreigners to count as domestics. Whereas, MLS is being asked to only allow Canadians (but other nationalities would still be counted as foreign) to be exempt in the states, and that is where Garber says it is impossible.

[youllneverwalkalone]

My understanding of the situation is that while I don't know whether it is a lie or not, this isn't a good comparison. NHL has no exemptions for Canadians, they allow all foreigners to count as domestics. Whereas, MLS is being asked to only allow Canadians (but other nationalities would still be counted as foreign) to be exempt in the states, and that is where Garber says it is impossible.

Don't get fussy with the details. It's lies, all lies I tell you!

[rob.notenboom]

My understanding of the situation is that while I don't know whether it is a lie or not, this isn't a good comparison. NHL has no exemptions for Canadians, they allow all foreigners to count as domestics. Whereas, MLS is being asked to only allow Canadians (but other nationalities would still be counted as foreign) to be exempt in the states, and that is where Garber says it is impossible.

I had thought of that same objection and the same reason that the objection (might) not apply. If the NHL allows anyone, then it is not making an exemption for Canadians only. In the MLS case, they would be making an exemption for Canadians only.

However, YNWA above might have the right of it in the end. If the salary cap stays and they drop the domestic regulation entirely, they might be left with only being able to afford Canadian or American players ... or they could just stock up on cheap players from Central/South America and that would be be worse than the current situation.

It seems that this is not the only issue that the CSA and MLS are at odds over ... time for the CSA to start making a bit more noise about it IMHO. That might not lead anywhere but it would be better than nothing.

Interested in the US labour law vs. MLS rules situation. Wonder how much truth there is to that.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

I think Garber is technically correct.

Only case I can see is the A-League, and New Zealanders who do not count as domestic for Aussie teams.

[ag futbol]

Also, how is it Canada can have Americans and Canadians listed as domestics? Would our laws be that different?

Yeah that's the part where it falls down. Making things even more complicated, it would appear we extend that courtesy to anyone with a green card. It doesn't add up at all.

Luckily, it looks like every team in MLS is starting to get pretty aggressive about naturalizing players and getting green cards, which punches a huge loophole in the rules.

[gator]

Garber seemed pretty assured in that interview that these are the laws and not much can be done, if that is the case so be it but let's give the Canadian teams more incetives to employ Canadian players because they aren't going to change things in the US by the sounds of it!

[betterredthandead]

Garber seemed pretty assured in that interview that these are the laws and not much can be done, if that is the case so be it but let's give the Canadian teams more incetives to employ Canadian players because they aren't going to change things in the US by the sounds of it!

I agree. Some sort of domestic player wage deduction against the cap.

I guess we should change the rules for CHL and CFL teams too for American player quotas.

[maccaliam]

Only case I can see is the A-League, and New Zealanders who do not count as domestic for Aussie teams.

There is some reciprocal agreement whereby all Aussies and Kiwis are allowed to work and live in either country without visas (bit like the EU)- not just in soccer terms but any and all employment. So again, the league hasn't made special exemptions, the two national government's have.

I believe there is something similar between Australia and Papa New Guinea too.

[ted]

I think Garber is technically correct.

No. He is technically lying through his teeth.

As was pointed out above, US Immigration and Labour Laws are a totally separate matter from MLS rules on "domestic quotas". If a Canadian can get a green card to work that makes him eligible for employment. Whether or not he counts as a "domestic" player is based on the rules set by the league.

[TFCfan4life]

My understanding of the situation is that while I don't know whether it is a lie or not, this isn't a good comparison. NHL has no exemptions for Canadians, they allow all foreigners to count as domestics. Whereas, MLS is being asked to only allow Canadians (but other nationalities would still be counted as foreign) to be exempt in the states, and that is where Garber says it is impossible.

I agree with you that my comparison to the NHL is not a good one since the situations are slightly different, but I still stand by what I said about the USCIS rules and MLS domestic player minimum requirements being independent of eachother. Also, preferential treatment of people from certain countries when it comes to employment happens all the time in the US through NAFTA.

As for someone mentioning that Garber talked about there being a special exemption to add Canadian players to the MLS domestic quotas, but the Canadian player pool being soo shallow that it makes it not worth spending the money to apply, that is also a slap in the face to Canada considering how much money Canadian teams contributed with an entrance fee + plus supporting money-losing American teams (crew, revs, chivas, etc) on a yearly basis.

[rob.notenboom]

that is also a slap in the face to Canada

Agreed there. I find much of the MLS situation a slap in the face (glad we have 3 teams though) and it seems that in many situations, not just the domestic player situation, the fact that Canada might have needs/wants/desires is an afterthought at best.

Perhaps the CSA should help our younger players get green cards so they would be eligible as domestics on US rosters (or would this start a potential parade of players to the USMNT ... assuming they have the quality ... and give ulcers to even more V's?)

[DontPanic]

until our Canadian teams start playing Canadians, what does it matter if the US teams dont?

[Obinna]

until our Canadian teams start playing Canadians, what does it matter if the US teams dont?

Another way to look at it is that Canadian teams are better off signing American players because they have trade value within the league. If we were considered equal Canadian teams would likely have more Canadians for this reason alone.

Someone has to press the CSA on this during the next media conference. Either that or keep on pressuring the Canadian clubs directly. Isn't Kevin Payne already bringing this up to MLS? I thought I read that somewhere? What are Saputo or Lenarduzzi doing? All three need to step their game up in this regard!

Also, I love how Don Garber lied through his teeth yet said the goal of the league was to ensure Canada qualify for the world cup. He had to throw that in there to cover up the lie. Otherwise why would he say it? If he was serious about getting Canada to the world cup he would of had no problem telling us how the league is exploring ideas about how to do this. Instead he said "oh, we quadrubled the number of Canadians in the league already by creating the 3 teams".

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Isn't Kevin Payne already bringing this up to MLS? I thought I read that somewhere?

He said he would, but that is a lot easier to say to the media than actually do something about.

[canadianfoot]

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/mls/story/?id=417461

During halftime of Saturday's MLS game between the Vancouver Whitecaps and Toronto FC, I asked MLS Commissioner Don Garber what the league's legal position was with respect to signing Canadian players to American MLS teams. At present, Americans are considered domestic players on both American and Canadian teams, while Canadians are not considered domestic players on American teams.

This is what the Commissioner had to say in response:

"...in the United States, if you are considered an international from a labour perspective, you can't discriminate between one nationality and another. So we would have a challenge if a Colombian player believed that they were treated differently than a Canadian player."

In 2013, a total of 152 international slots (used to sign non-domestic players) are divided among the 19 MLS clubs. Each club begins with eight international slots, which are tradable. There is no limit on the number of international slots on each club's roster. The remaining roster slots must belong to domestic players. For clubs based in the United States, a domestic player is a U.S. citizen, a permanent resident (green card holder) or the holder of other special status (i.e., refugee or asylum status).

The three Canadian MLS clubs may fill their domestic slots with either Canadian or American domestic players. Players with the legal right to work in Canada are considered Canadian domestic players (i.e., Canadian citizen, permanent resident, part of a protected class). Canadian MLS clubs must have a minimum of three Canadian domestic players on their roster.

Many passionate Canadian soccer supporters feel that league should be quid pro quo when it comes to Canadian players on American teams – that Canadians should be considered domestic players in both Canada and the United States, just like their American counterparts.

Those supporters argue that the other major sports in North America do not have the same restrictions with respect to Canadian players competing for American teams. It is an emotional argument, and one that will continue to rage on here in Canada. However, with regards to MLS, there are two important factors to consider.

1. MLS was created by Americans, for Americans

As Commissioner Garber stated, the league would open itself up to legal action if it treated one non-American nationality (Canadian) differently than the other non-American nationalities. If a lawsuit were brought forward, and the law sided with the foreign player, the floodgates to MLS could be opened to talented foreigners – who would very likely displace the American players that MLS was created to develop.

Where other major sports in North America have no worries about the threat of an influx of talented foreign players – and hence no restrictions on nationality - Major League Soccer does. If there were no nationality restrictions in place, there is a good chance that better players from abroad would replace many American players currently in the league.

In some respects, the nationality rules in MLS are in place to protect the owners from themselves. Professional sports being what they are, owners want to win. If the owners had free access to foreign players and weren't forced to employ American players, MLS would be flooded with talent from around the world, essentially driving out the American player. That goes against the very reason the league was established – the development of American players - and is one of the primary reasons why MLS does not want to go down this road.

It would, however, be very interesting to see what would happen if a foreign player – Canadian or otherwise – challenged the current nationality rules in Major League Soccer. Much like when Jean-Marc Bosman went to the European court of justice in 1995 to win freedom of movement for out-of-contract players in Europe, victory for the player in such a court case would have a dramatic impact on the composition of MLS.

2. Canadian players are not in demand in MLS

As of last Friday, MLS teams had occupied 111 of the 152 available international slots within the league. American MLS teams account for 87 of those 111 occupied international slots.

What this means is that there are plenty of international slots available for American MLS teams to sign Canadian players - if they wanted to do so. They just don't want to.

While it is uncomfortable for us to admit it, we in Canada must own up to the fact that there just aren't many Canadian players who are deemed good enough to play in Major League Soccer. Collectively, as a nation, we have done a very poor job of developing our young players, resulting in their inability to break into the professional game.

Yes, there are some players who are being overlooked, or whose situations – contractual or otherwise – prevent them from playing in MLS. For example, I'm sure there are a number of men's national team players that would be attractive to MLS teams if their salary demands were more reasonable.

And yes, MLS teams generally want to use their international slots on players who are difference makers. Those players generally tend to be big names that drive ticket sales, attacking stars that can win games single-handedly – something not generally associated with Canadian players - or value propositions that bring more for their money than their North American counterparts.

But the truth is there isn't a lengthy list of talented Canadian players who are being frozen out of MLS because they are Canadian. They are frozen out of the league because teams just don't think they are good enough.

Until such time as our country starts producing players who are in demand across Major League Soccer – by both Canadian and American teams – there will be little pressure on the league to change its existing rules. We might not like it, and it might not seem 'fair', but it isn't going to change unless MLS wants it to change.

Lets get back on track with this article by the man who asked the Question JDV.

[An Observer]

Ironically, your points under 1. contradict your points under 2. You first state that Americans aren't good enough to compete against foreigners and hence require a domestic quota; and then you state the exact the same thing for Canadians but with a different conclusion (ie. Canadians aren't good enough but instead of having the same protection as Americans, they just need to get better. In fact, the reason that Canadians need domestic protection is the same reason the American's do, they aren't good enough to compete on an equal footing with foreigners. Without that protection, Americans will continue to get better and Canadians will struggle. Its a self fulfilling prophecy, there are not enough good Canadians so until they get better, no discusion about having additional spots for Canadians. However, they cannot get better without having the additional allocations to begin with. So frankly, MLS is frustrating the development of Canadian players in favour of Americans. Sure, its a league designed for the benefit of Americans. But then lets just say it, the MLS discriminates against Canadians and has no plans to do the same for Canada's development as it does for Americans. Plain and simple.

The CSA and others in Canada need to decide what they want to do about it. One thing is to take legal advice on whether the MLS stand is actually correct and/or look at possible alternatives (with the Canadian clubs) to the current situation (whether that is more international spots; a free for all with no restrictions; more Canadian spots on Canadian teams (or course opposed by the clubs); a withdrawal of CSA support for MLS (I know, radical!); push for congressional approval; extension of NAFTA rights to Canadians (and possibly Mexicans); etc.). However, the current situation cannot stand medium term as its frustrating development of soccer in Canada as much as the lack of a D2 or D3 league. And the CSA has to be at the forefront about solving it.

[narduch]

Great post by An Observer. Pretty much outlines why all the defensive Whitecaps fans don't really have a leg to stand on.

This entire situation has really soured me on the MLS in Canada experiment.

The three Canadian MLS clubs in conjunction with the CSA need to be lobbying a lot harder to make the rules fairer to Canadian players.

Instead the clubs have taken the lazy way out. And enough fans have bought into the 'not enough good Canadians' story so they don't give a ****. Its easy to **** on Canadian soccer so nothing is done.

[rob.notenboom]

I thought JDV's article had some fair points. However, I do have a bit of a problem with point #1, that MLS was created by Americans for American players. Certainly it was, but then the rhetoric of 'we hope to see Can. and the US together in the world cup one day' when TFC entered the league falls flat. As soon as MLS starts expanding into Canada the situation changes and MLS (IMHO) hasn't responded well to that.

Even if the 'if Canada then the world' argument is true, there must be some legal way to allow even a couple extra Canadians per team to be on MLS rosters. Perhaps they are already looking into this and Garber can't say anything, but I suspect that they are dismissing it completely ... maybe this is too pessimistic.

On a slightly different note, and with the idea that MLS might not be the best place to develop Canadian talent anyway, perhaps the CSA could start actively partnering with overseas clubs and sponsoring developing players to go and trial there. Not sure if the clubs would see any benefit in that, but it might be more worthwhile to develop players in great club systems in Europe. I realize kids end up in Europe anyway, but a specific trackable and supportable pipeline through particular clubs might have a lot of upside.

[youllneverwalkalone]

MLS is more than happy to treat Canadians and Americans on equal footing. This was the case when TFC entered the league in 2007. Canadians were domestic on TFC, Americans were domestic on other MLS squads. It's the Canadian clubs, led by TFC, that complained and wanted US players treated as domestics. The Voyageurs witch hunt on Garber is simply not consistent with this history.

Currently, the issuance of green cards to soccer players is such a joke that I don't think we can turn back. There's no way Vancouver can compete with 22 Canadians versus Seattle and Portland who have 5-6 Americans and a bunch of foreign players with green cards. This farce is why I predict the international restriction will be lifted. At this point, what conspiracy will you point to to say that Garber and MLS are undermining Canadian soccer?

[Yohan]

If Garber says that they can't treat Canadians differently than someone should ask him why it's different than the Americans playing on Canadian teams.

I believe it's something has to do with Canadian labour laws that allows this?

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

If Garber says that they can't treat Canadians differently than someone should ask him why it's different than the Americans playing on Canadian teams.

That quote throws me too, because Canadians should not be lumped with other foreigners since we have clubs in the league unlike other countries, so there is a difference between Canadians and other INT.