Amount of minutes accrued by Canadian players

[madmonte]

Not looking to start a debate here, more of a contest. I am aware players can only get the minutes they earn or deserve. So whether it's the fault of Canada for not having good enough soccer players or the teams for not giving the players enough chances can be debated here a little but don't totally derail the thread with it please.

The idea is that the Vancouver Whitecaps didn't play players from their own nation. So the goal will be to find another club, worldwide, that has played players of their own nationality LESS than Vancouver Whitecaps.

HUGE HINT: A team that is actually in Wales, but playing in an English league WOULD count, since Vancouver is technically playing in a league not based in it's own country. Similarly, say a Macedonian club playing in a Greek league, etc. (Other hint...Swansea has like, ALL the good players from Wales, look in lower division to find a team that doesn't play a lot of national players)

I remember when we last discussed this, that players pointed to Manchester United as a team that buys players from other countries to have more success in it's own league, so I will try to include their last season too.

The criteria is it has to be in REGULAR SEASON PLAY! Not FA cup, or Voyageurs Cup, or anything where a team would look at it's reserve players. First squad matches only, so we'll use only regular season. Sadly, that means any playoffs will be excluded, but that's how it'll have to be.

Here's how our Canadian teams did (stats courtesy of MLSsoccer.com EDIT! CHANGED TO SOCCERWAY.COM)

Toronto FC

Ashtone Morgan - 2525 minutes, 30 appearances

Terry Dunfield - 2499 minutes , 30 appearances.

Doneil Henry - 1139 minutes, 18 appearances

Julian de Guzman - 1024 minutes, 16 appearances

Adrian Cann - 735 minutes, 10 appearances

Matt Stinson - 88 minutes, 4 appearances

Keith Makubuya - 10 minutes, 1 appearance

TOTAL 8020 minutes, 109 appearances

Montreal Impact

Patrice Bernier - 2195 minutes, 27 appearances

Karl Ouimette - 66 minutes, 2 appearances

Greg Sutton - 24 minutes, 1 appearance

TOTAL 2285 minutes, 30 appearances

Vancouver Whitecaps

Russel Teibert - 116 minutes - 4 appearances

Caleb Clarke - 15 minutes - 2 appearance

TOTAL 131 minutes - 6 appearances

(Thanks Lord Bob, using regular season criteria I did not find Caleb Clarke as making any appearances,so I went to soccerway...and edited this using soccerway's stats, rather than MLS.com...double checking on TFC and Impact now as well)

By the way, since Manchester United was brought up by my than one person as a team that also brings in a lot of international players in favor of English ones, here's how they fared just for comparison.

Manchester United 2011-2012, using ONLY Premier League minutes, courtesy of soccerway

Wayne Rooney - 2838 minutes, 34 appearances

Rio Ferdinand - 2565 minutes, 30 appearances

Michael Carrick - 2514 minutes, 30 appearances

Jonathan Evans - 2428 minutes, 25 appearances

Phil Jones - 2126 minutes, 29 appearances

Danny Welbeck - 2017 minutes, 30 appearances

Ashley Young - 1573 minutes, 25 appearances

Chris Smalling - 1291 minutes, 19 appearances

Paul Scholes - 1167 minutes, 17 appearances

Tom Cleverly - 433 minutes, 10 appearances

Ben Amos - 90 minutes, 1 appearance

Michael Own - 79 minutes, 1 appearance

Ezekial Fryers - 67 minutes, 2 appearances

William Keane - 5 minutes, 1 appearance

I'd total it up, but I mean, you get the idea.

[Lord Bob]

The blog Out of Touch has always done a great job summing up Canadian content in MLS. Here's his spreadsheet for 2012. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Apwmnaq--Q4IdExRMjlhNkVRQTAzRVhYU2hkc1lDdkE&output=html

[madmonte]

The blog Out of Touch has always done a great job summing up Canadian content in MLS. Here's his spreadsheet for 2012. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Apwmnaq--Q4IdExRMjlhNkVRQTAzRVhYU2hkc1lDdkE&output=html

Sweet thanks...the numbers I have mostly match up, so I'll leave them, but yeah, THAT woulda saved me time lol!

[Lord Bob]

Anyway, to actually answer your question:

Not looking to start a debate here, more of a contest. I am aware players can only get the minutes they earn or deserve. So whether it's the fault of Canada for not having good enough soccer players or the teams for not giving the players enough chances can be debated here a little but don't totally derail the thread with it please.

The idea is that the Vancouver Whitecaps didn't play players from their own nation. So the goal will be to find another club, worldwide, that has played players of their own nationality LESS than Vancouver Whitecaps.

HUGE HINT: A team that is actually in Wales, but playing in an English league WOULD count, since Vancouver is technically playing in a league not based in it's own country. Similarly, say a Macedonian club playing in a Greek league, etc. (Other hint...Swansea has like, ALL the good players from Wales, look in lower division to find a team that doesn't play a lot of national players)

I remember when we last discussed this, that players pointed to Manchester United as a team that buys players from other countries to have more success in it's own league, so I will try to include their last season too.

The criteria is it has to be in REGULAR SEASON PLAY! Not FA cup, or Voyageurs Cup, or anything where a team would look at it's reserve players. First squad matches only, so we'll use only regular season. Sadly, that means any playoffs will be excluded, but that's how it'll have to be.

AS Monaco, Ligue 2, France. 0 Monagesque players, 0 minutes.

[madmonte]

Anyway, to actually answer your question:

AS Monaco, Ligue 2, France. 0 Monagesque players, 0 minutes.

Wow, nice find! Let's note here that the Monaco is ranked 217 by ELO, and is not considered a member of UEFA (and therefore FIFA). Therefore, any players born in Monaco wanting (and with the gift to) play internationally in FIFA football would end up playing for France, anyways, but still technically correct Bob!

Given that the population of Monaco is like, less than 50,000 people, can anyone find a club more significant, with locally national players receiving very few minutes that may be comparable? (just to keep the game going a bit)

[ag futbol]

lol, Monaco... it's like the odd-ball statistical outlier in every sample regardless of what you're talking about.

[tmcmurph]

Inter Milan?

By the way you left Rochat off the list. He qualifies as Canadian by citizenship and CSA/MLS rules so unless you are arbitrarily deciding to only count MNT eligible players he should be listed. I didn't see MNT eligible only in your criteria. Rochat = 2323 minutes in 2012.

Interesting that the 2 clubs with the best results in MLS for 2012 have about the same minutes for Canadians if you add Rochat to the Caps list. So they each only found 1 available Canadian player who could make it at MLS level in their coachs' opinion. To be honest I look at the TFC players and have a hard time thinking of any of those cracking the Impact or Caps lineup.

I'm not saying that there are not Canadians out there I wouldn't love to have on the Caps but I don't see the point of playing players who are not ready or who are too good for MLS. As much as I'd love to see Hutch in a Caps uniform I'd rather he make a ton of money in Europe first. It's better for him.

[Lord Bob]

Inter would have had more Italian minutes than the Whitecaps had Canadian minutes through Ranocchia and Cassano alone, although they are a good example of a major team that certainly doesn't prioritize domestic talent.

[madmonte]

Inter Milan?

By the way you left Rochat off the list. He qualifies as Canadian by citizenship and CSA/MLS rules so unless you are arbitrarily deciding to only count MNT eligible players he should be listed. I didn't see MNT eligible only in your criteria. Rochat = 2323 minutes in 2012.

Interesting that the 2 clubs with the best results in MLS for 2012 have about the same minutes for Canadians if you add Rochat to the Caps list. So they each only found 1 available Canadian player who could make it at MLS level in their coachs' opinion. To be honest I look at the TFC players and have a hard time thinking of any of those cracking the Impact or Caps lineup.

I'm not saying that there are not Canadians out there I wouldn't love to have on the Caps but I don't see the point of playing players who are not ready or who are too good for MLS. As much as I'd love to see Hutch in a Caps uniform I'd rather he make a ton of money in Europe first. It's better for him.

Those are all fair points. And yeah, honestly, I was sort of arbitrarily deciding that Rochat was not Canadian, and was Swiss, despite the CSA/MLS rules, I do honestly view him as Swiss, not Canadian. As for the rest, as I said, I'm just taking note of this from an "interest" perspective, and I will probably continue to do this in future years to see if our youth programs are working and these numbers grow. Could make a chart in the future too, but for now, even though I do have opinions on this, they are irrelevant, just pointing out facts, and you guys can make of it what you will.

But I should point out that the Lord Bob blogger also did not view Rochat as Canadian. Despite the CSA/MLS rules, it is MNT eligibility I'm sort of looking for here.

Inter would have had more Italian minutes than the Whitecaps had Canadian minutes through Ranocchia and Cassano alone, although they are a good example of a major team that certainly doesn't prioritize domestic talent.

Yeah definitely. Their focus is certainly, like Vancouver, more on winning than national player development. Not saying there's anything wrong with it. Another I was looking at closely that I was referring to in my hints was Cardiff City FC, based in Wales although they play in the Championship. I believe last year only played one Welsh guy for 700 some minutes.

[tmcmurph]

MNT is your criteria then but it is a poor one. I guess if the Caps sign Lensky he isn't Canadian either then. And neither would Tam be if he came back. But playing players who will never be good enough for the MNT does count. I fail to see the logic in it.

I still find it interesting that these threads lament the lack of playing time at a time when clubs are struggling to find quality, affordable players period much less an even more refined search for quality, affordable, Canadian players. Our MLS teams are stuck in a hard position in that the very good go to Europe, those that can even have a shot at going to Europe do so and that leaves them developing their own which is a very slow process or playing players way before they are ready all within a low salary cap.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

MNT is your criteria then but it is a poor one. I guess if the Caps sign Lensky he isn't Canadian either then. And neither would Tam be if he came back. But playing players who will never be good enough for the MNT does count. I fail to see the logic in it.

The CSA sanctions these teams to play in an American league so that there is an opportunity for players who are part of the national team player pool to play at a professional level. Why should it matter if players count as domestic players if they are not eligible to play for Canada. How does the help the CMNT?

And yes, Lensky and Rochat are not Canadian footballers. They made that decision themselves.

[Macksam]

Inter would have had more Italian minutes than the Whitecaps had Canadian minutes through Ranocchia and Cassano alone, although they are a good example of a major team that certainly doesn't prioritize domestic talent.

Which is probably why they can't achieve any sort of long term success, like Juventus.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

San Marino Calcio 1 player, not sure how many minutes. is on loan.

Many Cyprus teams as well are fairly low on national talent, especially starting matches for the bigger clubs.

[Lord Bob]

Which is probably why they can't achieve any sort of long term success, like Juventus.

What? Since 2006 Inter has fourteen trophies, ten of which were major (5x Serie A, 3x Coppa Italia, 3x Supercoppa Italiana, 1x Champions League, 1x Euro Super Cup, 1x Club World Cup) in one of the most talented leagues in the world. If that's not long-term success I would be very much interested to know what is.

Any comparison to Juventus is made problematic by the fact that Juventus is a team of flagrant scumbag match-fixing cheats.

[madmonte]

MNT is your criteria then but it is a poor one. I guess if the Caps sign Lensky he isn't Canadian either then. And neither would Tam be if he came back. But playing players who will never be good enough for the MNT does count. I fail to see the logic in it.

I still find it interesting that these threads lament the lack of playing time at a time when clubs are struggling to find quality, affordable players period much less an even more refined search for quality, affordable, Canadian players. Our MLS teams are stuck in a hard position in that the very good go to Europe, those that can even have a shot at going to Europe do so and that leaves them developing their own which is a very slow process or playing players way before they are ready all within a low salary cap.

That it's poor is a matter of opinion. If a fan's interest is to gauge how well the MLS teams may, in the future, be able to contribute to developing Canadian content for the CMNT (which is an interest of mine), I don't think it's fair of you to say it's poor of me to look towards that as something to be interested in. I am, and there's nothing you can do about it! (laughs) But seriously, if our MLS teams aren't there yet, so be it, but keeping tabs on it to gauge where we are at is perfectly fine if that's what the goal of it is.

But you are correct, the MLS teams have to make money and provide a product the fans will be interested in. Look at TFC and the numbers, and how many fans are frustrated, and look at the building fan interest in the Whitecaps. So on that, I certainly can't say it's WRONG of Vancouver to do what they are doing, but on that same token: if they are investing in their academies, and spending money there, then they SHOULD see results. So take the number from this year, and we'll compare it to a number 5 years down the road. I'm hopeful that the canadian content improves based on increased interest in soccer in Canada in general.

And perhaps the Whitecaps build better interest in football in Canada by fielding a winning side, rather than a crappy side full of national players. I'm not judging.

[tmcmurph]

1) It overlooks the players developed by the Caps system getting minutes in Europe like REB, Straith etc. They are arguably playing at as high or higher level.

2) Some players, like TFC found out, don't want to be locked into a 5 year deal for peanuts in MLS. They go and try the Euro route. You can hardly blame them, I certainly don't. But shouldn't the clubs get credit for that from a MNT perspective? I think they should.

3) If Milan Borjan got signed for one of our MLS teams he would count but Tam Nsaliwa wouldn't because he isn't MNT eligible even though he is capped for us.

I think a better barometer of development is how many players do each team develop who do go on to play for our MNT regardless of where they play their pro games at. I feel it is rather myopic to be focused on "MLS first team minutes" as the criteria.

REB, Straith, Attakora, Morgan are the ones I can think of so far. I may be wrong as to "fully capped" due to FIFA's dumb rules on the subject. If it is MNT eligible then why not look at the U23, U20 and U17 MNTs. They are full of academy players. That would give a much better idea of who is developing players eligible for our MNT.

Just my 2 cents while I can still spend it

[madmonte]

1) It overlooks the players developed by the Caps system getting minutes in Europe like REB, Straith etc. They are arguably playing at as high or higher level.

2) Some players, like TFC found out, don't want to be locked into a 5 year deal for peanuts in MLS. They go and try the Euro route. You can hardly blame them, I certainly don't. But shouldn't the clubs get credit for that from a MNT perspective? I think they should.

3) If Milan Borjan got signed for one of our MLS teams he would count but Tam Nsaliwa wouldn't because he isn't MNT eligible even though he is capped for us.

I think a better barometer of development is how many players do each team develop who do go on to play for our MNT regardless of where they play their pro games at. I feel it is rather myopic to be focused on "MLS first team minutes" as the criteria.

REB, Straith, Attakora, Morgan are the ones I can think of so far. I may be wrong as to "fully capped" due to FIFA's dumb rules on the subject. If it is MNT eligible then why not look at the U23, U20 and U17 MNTs. They are full of academy players. That would give a much better idea of who is developing players eligible for our MNT.

Just my 2 cents while I can still spend it

1) Good point, you have to look towards them as well. I would say playing in 2 bundesliga could be argued to be on a higher level. Not so sure about 3 bundesliga being necessarily better. Either way, it's nice to see them producing possible future canadians no matter where they play. No arguement here.

2) Oscar Cordon sure didn't seem like he wanted that 5 year contract. The worst fate, though, would be to be "that guy" that is hire just to BE Canadian content, that doesn't even get to the bench. There just to fill the 3 man quota. Any player would have to hate that.

3) I like Milan Borjan, but forgive my ignorance, and I'll look him up, but I don't know enough about Tam to judge. In fact, haven't heard about him before this, but I'll look into him and see what you are talking about. That's the point of these forums, if I was here to talk to thin air and learn nothing, I'd be a complete idiot, so let me look into that!

But yeah on the whole I agree with that point.

[Macksam]

What? Since 2006 Inter has fourteen trophies, ten of which were major (5x Serie A, 3x Coppa Italia, 3x Supercoppa Italiana, 1x Champions League, 1x Euro Super Cup, 1x Club World Cup) in one of the most talented leagues in the world. If that's not long-term success I would be very much interested to know what is.

Any comparison to Juventus is made problematic by the fact that Juventus is a team of flagrant scumbag match-fixing cheats.

I can cut this post apart so badly, but I don't even want to start. lol, I'll spare you Lord Bob. My belated Christmas present to you .

[Yohan]

1) Good point, you have to look towards them as well. I would say playing in 2 bundesliga could be argued to be on a higher level. Not so sure about 3 bundesliga being necessarily better. Either way, it's nice to see them producing possible future canadians no matter where they play. No arguement here.

for what it's worth, Torsten Frings think TFC is about low to mid level 2 Bundesliga while LA is low 1 Bundesliga

[madmonte]

for what it's worth, Torsten Frings think TFC is about low to mid level 2 Bundesliga while LA is low 1 Bundesliga

Sounds about right.

[tmcmurph]

Tam played 13 games for our MNT but he renounced his Canadian citizenship to become a citizen of Germany in 2007 (they don't allow dual citizenship). This was done to get a job and pay the bills. They had rules limiting the number of non-EU internationals permitted in a team. Hard choice but I can't blame him, you need to make a living for yourself and your family first.

Silly thing is he can't play for us and he can't play for anyone else either. Sort of a FIFA no man's land. So despite being cap tied to Canada he hasn't been eligible for our MNT for the last 6 years.

[madmonte]

Tam played 13 games for our MNT but he renounced his Canadian citizenship to become a citizen of Germany in 2007 (they don't allow dual citizenship). This was done to get a job and pay the bills. They had rules limiting the number of non-EU internationals permitted in a team. Hard choice but I can't blame him, you need to make a living for yourself and your family first.

Silly thing is he can't play for us and he can't play for anyone else either. Sort of a FIFA no man's land. So despite being cap tied to Canada he hasn't been eligible for our MNT for the last 6 years.

Ah, I understand. I don't know much about dual citizenship laws, and such, I wonder why he didn't try for that? Would that not be an option?

[VWFC]

for what it's worth, Torsten Frings think TFC is about low to mid level 2 Bundesliga while LA is low 1 Bundesliga

I think its pretty well accepted that MLS is on par with League 1 & Bunda 3 skill wise, but that the athleticism and physicality of the league make a low Champioship / Bunda 2 side.

[jpg75]

Tam played 13 games for our MNT but he renounced his Canadian citizenship to become a citizen of Germany in 2007 (they don't allow dual citizenship). This was done to get a job and pay the bills. They had rules limiting the number of non-EU internationals permitted in a team. Hard choice but I can't blame him, you need to make a living for yourself and your family first.

Silly thing is he can't play for us and he can't play for anyone else either. Sort of a FIFA no man's land. So despite being cap tied to Canada he hasn't been eligible for our MNT for the last 6 years.

Actually, Tam can play for us as long as it's not in an official competition (since he doesn't have a passport). That's why he was able to play for us in the friendly against Brasil in June 2008 in Seattle...

[Gordon]

I think its pretty well accepted that MLS is on par with League 1 & Bunda 3 skill wise, but that the athleticism and physicality of the league make a low Champioship / Bunda 2 side.

The difference is that in MLS, the gap between the very top players and those at the bottom talent wise is much greater than in most countries with more temas, players and levels. So you have some guys that could (and do) play at the low to mif level in any top flight in the world, and then the low end guys who would be crap in a third or fourth division. It is really hard to "peg" MLS at any given "level" because of this range of talent.