Olivier Occean's Comments on Hart's Reign

[Grizzly]

Thanks to Blackdude for finding this. A very blunt and honest assessment from Occean of Hart's coaching ability. It is what at least some of us here thought but here it is from a player. (my translation, if any of the Francophones have any corrections please give them)

Announcer: If 2012 was memorable from a club standpoint, it was a catastrophe with the national team. The embarrassing 8-1 setback against Honduras logically pushed the coach to make an exit. Occean hopes his successor will be better.......(Occean continues) "because the last coach was really an amateur. The training was not a very high level and lacked some professionalism. The coach did not really know how to manage the team. It is unfortunate because we had a really good group."

Announcer: Occean also believes that the Canadian federation needs to be more transparent..... (Occean) "We really don't know what is happening behind the scenes in the (CSA) offices."

Earlier he states that he enjoys both playing for Canada and in Germany.

The rest of the interview talks about him training over the holidays in Brossard (at the Habs training complex no less though I think that is the public work out room in the centre not the one the Habs actually use) to remain fit for the 2nd half of the season, his career in Germany and how much he likes it there and that he would like some day to play for the Impact with his friend Bernier.

My comment on the last bit: If he wants to play with Bernier he better hurry because Bernier is a few years older than he is).

The interview can be seen here for those who understand French. The article below is not wholly accurate because it removes parts of what he said: http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/soccer/2012/12/27/002-olivier-occean-hauts-bas.shtml?isAutoPlay=1

[ray]

Occean is entitled to criticize but where was he during the 8-1 loss? Oh yeah, got himself red-carded against Cuba. Olivier's absence certainly contributed to the collapse in Honduras. OO should realize there was a lot more lacking on this team than the coach and the CSA. The players have to take a hard look at themselves, too.

[Joe MacCarthy]

The players have to take a hard look at themselves, too.

Amen, a real hard look because that generation of players didn't have it, in the guts department.

And why does he need to know what happens behind the scene, shut yer yob and play, or not play in his case. Orval Tessier for coach!

[Tuscan]

The article makes me wonder, how do we actually get a proper assessment of if Stephen Hart was unqualified for the job? And I mean real hard evidence where someone can step in and prove that if the training or tactical or any other part of the teams prep had been better, we'd be in the Hex right now. I want to believe that perhaps the guys that do pull on the Red and White for us have what it takes to at least get us to the Hex, if not have a fighting chance against Honduras, Costa Rica, and Jamaica. I'd like to think that it is worth the CSA's $$ to bring in a bigger name coach in order to get us over that hill and get us a real chance at making the World Cup. I just don't see where or how we can make that assessment.

[ditty]

I don't think there'd be much argument from the players on the fact that Stephen Hart was perhaps the least experienced (qualified) coach of the top 10 CONCACAF nations. I find it kind of telling that Kevin McKenna, who seems very positive on Hart, described him as a "great man" and didn't really comment on him as a coach.

At the same time, Occean obviously didn't see eye-to-eye with Hart on the fact he wasn't always selected under his reign and wasn't an automatic starter until the last round of qualifying. On the pitch, I felt Occean generally gave his all, especially in the last round.

[Gordon]

The article makes me wonder, how do we actually get a proper assessment of if Stephen Hart was unqualified for the job? And I mean real hard evidence where someone can step in and prove that if the training or tactical or any other part of the teams prep had been better, we'd be in the Hex right now. I want to believe that perhaps the guys that do pull on the Red and White for us have what it takes to at least get us to the Hex, if not have a fighting chance against Honduras, Costa Rica, and Jamaica. I'd like to think that it is worth the CSA's $$ to bring in a bigger name coach in order to get us over that hill and get us a real chance at making the World Cup. I just don't see where or how we can make that assessment.

I am sure Osciek fit the bill in terms of experience and knowledge, yet suffered the same fate. Personally, I think there is a dysfunctional culture in the MNT, that set in initially under Lenarduzzi in the 90s and perpetuates itself cycle to cycle. Doesn't mean the players are bad people, or cancers, it just means they are not, as a group, capable of achieving their potential as a team. I agree with you in that I don't think there is a "talent gap" when it comes to the 3-6th spot, rather it is a cultural/character gap. Occean is part of that problem as Ray suggests. His self indulgent slap at the cuban goaltender evidence of a lack of discipline and commitment.

[Lord Bob]

Huh. One of the guys responsible for Canada's failure shanks his ex-coach in the back and blames everybody but himself and his buddies ("we had a really good group of people" indeed; you demonstrably did not). What a shock.

[A_Gagne]

Occean is entitled to criticize but where was he during the 8-1 loss? Oh yeah, got himself red-carded against Cuba. Olivier's absence certainly contributed to the collapse in Honduras. OO should realize there was a lot more lacking on this team than the coach and the CSA. The players have to take a hard look at themselves, too.

Most bull**** make-up call in the history of bull**** make up calls... I don't blame OO for that.

This isn't the first time he's publicly criticized Hart, so I take his perspectives with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, 8-1... enough said. Given that kind of result, pretty hard to argue that the players were prepared in that game. The utter capitulation that we saw i Honduras definitely points towards a serious failure of leadership. Although, as for OO's comments though, unfortunately, leadership responsibilities don't just lye with the coach. I think if anything was evident from examining the last 10yrs of Canadian footie, it's that no matter who the coach, the players - Occean's "really good group" - could simply never produce the goods when it mattered.

[Sam]

I got no time for this kind of thing. Hart is gone, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from comments like this and they only serve to piss people off. As has been said here as well, Occean himself is far from blameless, sure he scored a massive goal, but you'd hope that our only natural striker could pop up with more than one during the six game group.

[jonovision]

Ultimately this is a bit disappointing. Of course Stephen Hart was an amateur. Even in the strictest sense this is true: his only experience prior to the NT job was at amateur and youth levels. The fact that he was in over his head was obvious to most somewhere around the 0-0 Puerto Rico draw in 2011.

But Hart failed at one WCQ. Occean and his "good group" have failed at 3, and scoring from the striker position has been a problem the whole time. Passing the buck serves nobody at this point.

[Keegan]

Most bull**** make-up call in the history of bull**** make up calls... I don't blame OO for that.

This isn't the first time he's publicly criticized Hart, so I take his perspectives with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, 8-1... enough said. Given that kind of result, pretty hard to argue that the players were prepared in that game. The utter capitulation that we saw i Honduras definitely points towards a serious failure of leadership. Although, as for OO's comments though, unfortunately, leadership responsibilities don't just lye with the coach. I think if anything was evident from examining the last 10yrs of Canadian footie, it's that no matter who the coach, the players - Occean's "really good group" - could simply never produce the goods when it mattered.

Remember though, Occean would have been suspended even if he just got a yellow (which would have been justified in that situation imo). Occean is far from blameless and has had a crap attitude for the past couple years (remember him walking the ball in and taunting the St. Lucia players?).

That said, I do agree with and appreciate his opinion on Hart. Glad he's honest at least.

[ag futbol]

I'm generally not a rah-rah effort guy but my lasting impression will still be how badly Honduras wanted that game and how we seemingly didn't. Their players looked scared ****less that they'd never be able to show their faces again if they lost. We looked like we were scared to even attempt to win. The lowlight of the whole thing had to be Kevin McKenna - our "leader" - coming out after half time and talking about what a shame it was. The game was half over FFS, it was a big mountain but at least throw yourself at the cause.

[ag futbol]

I am sure Osciek fit the bill in terms of experience and knowledge, yet suffered the same fate. Personally, I think there is a dysfunctional culture in the MNT, that set in initially under Lenarduzzi in the 90s and perpetuates itself cycle to cycle. Doesn't mean the players are bad people, or cancers, it just means they are not, as a group, capable of achieving their potential as a team. I agree with you in that I don't think there is a "talent gap" when it comes to the 3-6th spot, rather it is a cultural/character gap. Occean is part of that problem as Ray suggests. His self indulgent slap at the cuban goaltender evidence of a lack of discipline and commitment.

Perhaps this can be split into a different thread, because this conversation is going in a bunch of different directions, but I think in addition to the cultural / character gap there is a talent gap as well. I would honestly put Honduras and Costa Rica well ahead of us when it comes to the quality of their squads. They have deeper pools of players, a higher quality top-end player and a similar quality low-end player with the added advantage of being able to ride a hot-hand.

There's also the matter of the type of player we are developing compared to them. Let's face it, we struggle to fill the more creative / dynamic roles on the field and also stuggle to produce players with creative or dynamic qualities in general. I'd like to say that if we were an american football team, we'd be fielding 11 offensive linemen, no quarterback, no running back, and no receivers. The role 90% of our guys are playing at the club level is functional. We produce the hard-working box-to-box midfielder, the tough-as-nails defender, the striker who "works hard" but isn't potent. At the club level they are compensated for by their teammates, for the nats they left bare and exposed.

[Wingback6]

While I am inclined to want to see the original French article first, before forming an opinion on these comments, my first thoughts are, what a spineless twat.

Occean did little more than poach, and mope through the last two years, I hardly remember him 'stepping up' at any point, as we needed our starting striker to do, when we were struggling for goals. And to throw under the bus the man who have faith in you despite these meagre showings at the international level. Shame.

as the Chinese proverb says:Weak man looks to others, strong man looks to himself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which OO would fall into in this context.

[BearcatSA]

The blame game continues....

[ag futbol]

While I am inclined to want to see the original French article first, before forming an opinion on these comments, my first thoughts are, what a spineless twat.

Occean did little more than poach, and mope through the last two years, I hardly remember him 'stepping up' at any point, as we needed our starting striker to do, when we were struggling for goals. And to throw under the bus the man who have faith in you despite these meagre showings at the international level. Shame.

as the Chinese proverb says:Weak man looks to others, strong man looks to himself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which OO would fall into in this context.

Thus is professional sports though, guys smell a weak link and they get preditory. Not very classy or mindful of his own shortcomings, but not entirely unexpected.

You almost have to look at the entire situation and laugh though. Hart's entire resume is working for an organization that hasn't had much success and that somehow qualified him to be our leader. And yet, despite all that he did comparatively better than some of those who came before him.

There is a huge amount of room for improvement if we just took off the blinders for a second and quit gifting jobs to our hapless internal candidates.

[madmonte]

Well, in terms of formations and football intelligence, I think we`ve all listened to Hart speak, and he certaintly doesn`t sound like an amateur there. However that said, training is extremely important, and as much as I`ve defended Hart, I`m going to side with Occean on this. In retrospect, he is probably correct and it should be our highest priority to find a coach that is more of a taskmaster during training, that puts together strong plans and strong formations, and runs strong practices.

It`s one thing to run a lax practice here and there to build solidarity. I can even understand Hart doing so in terms of trying to convince people to come play for Canada because it`s a fun environment. But then, really, why people stay away from playing for Canada is because they simply don`t take us seriously. Jono certainly doesn`t seem to.

We need a coach that everyone will take seriously, who cares about the big name players, win with the players you have by having strong practices, solidarity, and good plans. Not to be critical, as I`ve been avoiding being critical on here lately, but that Honduras game looked like Hart had said "Okay boys, now just go out there and have fun!"

This is the CMNT, not Lester Pierson Junior ****ing High.

[DigzTFC]

Question: Which players do you think would make the starting lineup for Honduras? Atiba is the only one that comes to mind. Our player pool razor thin. Making guys like Ledgerwood and Dunfield internationals. A coach cannot make a player pool bigger unless he recruits or has larger camps with b teams. These exercises happened. It failed. But it failed because players who were depended on didn't show up. McKenna got burnt multiple times, Ricketts didn't score on his chances, our midfield got dissected etc. Hart cannot be blamed for the teams shortcomings without sharing the blame.

[madmonte]

Question: Which players do you think would make the starting lineup for Honduras? Atiba is the only one that comes to mind. Our player pool razor thin. Making guys like Ledgerwood and Dunfield internationals. A coach cannot make a player pool bigger unless he recruits or has larger camps with b teams. These exercises happened. It failed. But it failed because players who were depended on didn't show up. McKenna got burnt multiple times, Ricketts didn't score on his chances, our midfield got dissected etc. Hart cannot be blamed for the teams shortcomings without sharing the blame.

I don't know about that Digz. Not sure Central American associations would be turning down guys from the Premier League and Bundesliga if they came knocking, ie Jackson, Occean, and De Jong. And then De Rosario was the MLS player of the year. Yes Hart has to share the blame, but to say Canada didn't have it's share of talented players and point to Ledgerwood and Dunfield as your examples is wrong. What was also wrong was to PLAY guys like Dunfield and Ricketts (and probably Ledgerwood, although there were times he performed well) over guys like Bernier, Hume...

And that, at least, you CAN blame the coach for.

Seriously I can go back into the threads of individual games in the last round of qualifying and find TONNES of Voyageurs saying "wtf Hart, why are you starting these guys" and I agreed with them then, and now, that Hart was screwing our lineup royally at times.

[A_Gagne]

Well, in terms of formations and football intelligence, I think we`ve all listened to Hart speak, and he certaintly doesn`t sound like an amateur there. However that said, training is extremely important, and as much as I`ve defended Hart, I`m going to side with Occean on this. In retrospect, he is probably correct and it should be our highest priority to find a coach that is more of a taskmaster during training, that puts together strong plans and strong formations, and runs strong practices.

We tried that... his name was Holger Osieck... the team won, but the players couldn't deal with his "taskmaster-ness" and conspired to get him removed... he now coaches Australia, who does make the World Cup.

[ag futbol]

I don't know about that Digz. Not sure Central American associations would be turning down guys from the Premier League and Bundesliga if they came knocking, ie Jackson, Occean, and De Jong.

Not so sure about that, they have quality in their own right. However it depends who we are talking about. A country like Panama, maybe we plug a few holes. Costa Rica or Honduras? I think you'd be in a pretty tough place to suggest our guys would just walk into their lineups.

I'd also caution the logic of saying "this guy plays in league x, therefore he's better". All kinds of stuff lost in translation there. Oliver Occean might play in B1 but he's not putting the ball in the net often. Do you were Costa Rica do you start him over an MLS player - Saborio - who is scoring way more often at the club level and for the national team?

Outside of the league seal of approval, which is incredibly vague, I see very few indicators that our players are actually better. Remember, work visas and other such things come into play here as well. We probably in certain cases have an easier time getting our players into europe than they do.

[madmonte]

I'm entirely not convinced that the skill and level of our players, individually, are that far behind Panama and Honduras. Do I think Honduras may be slightly better? Yeah, probably, but that doesn't mean we don't have more than a couple players that yes, indeed, they could instantly insert into their starters. I DO believe that.

I also believe that their organization and system are better, and that we can improve there and need to. I also believe that in 10-15 years the level of our players will improve.

And I also believe the 11 we were fielding weren't the best 11 we could have fielded on multiple occassions. As I said, Ledgerwood, Ricketts and Dunfield (less so Ledgerwood) were favorites of Hart that to me, could have sat for better options. And despite anyone's efforts to be contrarian to that, because yes, I like those players too, the evidence from every game day says that most Voyageurs agree with me.

That and that alone, is what gives Hart part of the blame, to me. And I was/am a guy that would tend to defend Hart, I enjoyed listening to him on shows like "Formation Geek". I liked how he brought a little solidarity to the team and was good at man management in terms of building a team relationship. But that doesn't change game day player decisions that made sense to very few Voyageurs.

I'm not saying that a few changes would have made that big a difference to the 8-1 scoreline. Well maybe as you yourself even said he should have not played McKenna if he was that sick. BUT I AM DEFINITELY SAYING that had the right players been chosen when Honduras came and played in Canada, a couple of those huge chances would have found the back of the net (Ricketts?) and that 8-1 result would never have even MATTERED.

To me, the 8-1 result was bad. Really bad. But the tournament was actually lost when we didn't get those points from Honduras in Canada, when we were so close to doing so. And Hart played many of the wrong guys, in my opinion and many others, in both of those games.

[ditty]

To get back to Occean's comments a bit, going into this last round of qualifying it seemed to me that he was clearly irked by his Gold Cup exclusion, after he'd had that great season in Offenbach. I thought it was a stupid thing for him to spout off in that interview on Montreal radio and was surprised that more wasn't made of that. As well, in our first round of qualifying, he just didn't seem very committed to me and his act on that goal down St. Kitts or wherever put me off him even further. Plus, I don't think my image of him was helped by his brother's tweets dissing Hart all the time (granted, this has nothing to do with OO really).

But I thought he worked his ass off in the last round. I thought he was very, very good against Honduras and Panama here and his hold up play was vital to the system we played. His absence was felt as much or more than any other player who missed time during qualifying. However, his finishing, like every other one of our attackers, let us down huge.

My bottom line with this is similar to what Sam had to say. What is the point of complaining about Hart now, especially after the players **** the bed so horrifically in Honduras, when you were back in Frankfurt suspended.

[ag futbol]

I'm entirely not convinced that the skill and level of our players, individually, are that far behind Panama and Honduras. Do I think Honduras may be slightly better? Yeah, probably, but that doesn't mean we don't have more than a couple players that yes, indeed, they could instantly insert into their starters. I DO believe that.

I also believe that their organization and system are better, and that we can improve there and need to. I also believe that in 10-15 years the level of our players will improve.

Glancing through each roster, I might in some ways be inclined to agree. But here’s where I start to question if that's true is the results. If we stack it all up Costa Rica and Honduras have more frequently qualified for the HEX, more recently qualified for the WC, and as a one-off the Honduran team did incredibly well in the most recent Olympics.

Regarding the improvement of our team, I think we're getting better but I'm concerned they are as well. Look what's happening in MLS right now, the Hondurans are arguably benefiting more than we are. The best players from their home league are coming to MLS and playing significant roles. We have no comparable feeder system that performs the same function.

I agree with you that coaching is an issue, and it's probably the fastest way we can see improvement in our team. Seems like we've stated this before but, at the end of the day is Occean right? I tend to think he is, maybe he didn't say it very nicely or wasn't very mindful of the teams own shortcomings, but I think the point stands.

[madmonte]

Glancing through each roster, I might in some ways be inclined to agree. But here’s where I start to question if that's true is the results. If we stack it all up Costa Rica and Honduras have more frequently qualified for the HEX, more recently qualified for the WC, and as a one-off the Honduran team did incredibly well in the most recent Olympics.

Regarding the improvement of our team, I think we're getting better but I'm concerned they are as well. Look what's happening in MLS right now, the Hondurans are arguably benefiting more than we are. The best players from their home league are coming to MLS and playing significant roles. We have no comparable feeder system that performs the same function.

I agree with you that coaching is an issue, and it's probably the fastest way we can see improvement in our team. Seems like we've stated this before but, at the end of the day is Occean right? I tend to think he is, maybe he didn't say it very nicely or wasn't very mindful of the teams own shortcomings, but I think the point stands.

What I was saying in my post was that there was more to the results than just taking individual player and comparing them to individual player. But as you say, is Occean right? Hard to say...I also tend to think he is, but could have been more diplomatic. However, with guys like Jackson, Occean, and others being coached on a much more professional level, if Hart is more amateur, it will show most TO guys like Occean, where guys like Ledgerwood, (and I hate to say it our MLS team players) come from backgrounds where the coaching isn't as professional as say, Bundesliga or the English Premier League.

So to switch from a very professional scenario like Bundesliga to coming and training at some random park in Florida...yeah, Hart didn't have a chance.

But then...is that all on Hart? Wine tasting, for example, can be very subjective. A person can drink the same wine at two locations. When it's in a back alley, they'll rate that wine 1 star. When it's in a classy restaurant off of a tropical vineyard, same wine might get 4, 5 stars.

So maybe Occean's perspective of Hart is a little skewed, but let's face it, the CSA won't have even Eintracht Frankfurt money for quite some time. Sad but true.

Unfortunately, where Occean is right is Hart is a coach they didn't have to pay as much. You get what you pay for, and Hart is amateur compared to what Occean is used to as well, I'm sure.