Canada's rightful place

[Gordon]

The same way the MLS has been forced to be worse by mandating a minimum number of Americans to be on their rosters has benefitted both the league and their national team.

You actually can't hold a conversation with someone who is either 1) Genuinely believing something as fact that is contrary to your own belief in the facts. 2) Threatened by the conversation or, 3) Trolling.

[maccaliam]

Ah, right, because Beckham and Henry saved a league that was on the verge of folding, and now that Beckham is gone, the stadiums are going to be empty for the approx. 32 games where Henry won't be playing vs their teams, how silly of me.

[Lord Bob]

You actually can't hold a conversation with someone who is either 1) Genuinely believing something as fact that is contrary to your own belief in the facts. 2) Threatened by the conversation or, 3) Trolling.

Scenarios 1 and 2 are actually just the time to hold a conversation, to try and convince someone of the correctness of your point of view. I just genuinely don't see how what Canadian soccer needs is for our existing professional teams to be worse with more Andrea Lombardos and Gabe Galas.

[maccaliam]

I just genuinely don't see how what Canadian soccer needs is for our existing professional teams to be worse with more Andrea Lombardos and Gabe Galas.

I was obviously exaggerating earlier bc you were too, but why would making teams in the V's cup have to actually play even just one Canadian a bad thing? Sure, you can use Lombardo and Gala to say why we shouldn't, but others will use Teibert's lack of opportunity to play last season for Vancouver as a reason we should look to emulate even a few of the requirements the yanks and Aussies have mandated for their leagues/cups. And their national programs have definitely benefitted from having done so.

[Lord Bob]

I was obviously exaggerating earlier bc you were too, but why would making teams in the V's cup have to actually play even just one Canadian a bad thing? Sure, you can use Lombardo and Gala to say why we shouldn't, but others will use Teibert's lack of opportunity to play last season for Vancouver as a reason we should look to emulate even a few of the requirements the yanks and Aussies have mandated for their leagues/cups. And their national programs have definitely benefitted from having done so.

I can't speak for the Australians, but has the American national team got even a single player who owes his career to an MLS quota? Pretty much all of them were either top prospects from day one or trained in Europe. The only conceivable exception I can think of is Geoff Cameron, and even he was semi-regular in the Houston Dynamo lineup by the end of his rookie season.

I think Teibert should have gotten more minutes because he's good enough, not because he's Canadian. I don't think rules are the solution to that problem, and a problem it is. The ideal world would be the same thing we all want: more teams for players like Teibert to find their level, and for players like Paul Hamilton who risked slipping through the cracks to land on their feet.

The Voyageurs Cup already struggles for fan support compared to the MLS regular season. We don't want to make it seem less serious or like an affirmative action program, do we?

[Robert]

This thread got a bit silly when Jamaica failed to qualify for the 2013 Gold Cup, despite using a top end lineup vs the likes of Cuba, Martinique and Guyana.

Their rightful place surely isn't the Hex if they falter there, no?

Is it possible that Jamaima has chosen to focus soley on the Hex at the expense of participating in the Gold Cup? If that is the case I like how they set their priorities.

[maccaliam]

I agree that RT should have got more playing time bc he is good enough, but he didn't, and a quota (most likely) would have ensured he did. It isn't an ideal situation but I think it is actually helpful to have a quota, bc players who may not have been given an opportunity get playing time, prove they are/can be good enough, and develop into better players.

I think it probably is true that most American NT players who have benefitted from MLS were probably identified as top talents early on, but the quota would have ensured MLS sides wanted to keep hold of them and invest in their development.

I do hope the academies will soon provide more than enough players that the quota argument is unnecessary, but I feel many Canadians, like Saiko and Hamilton, would have already been given a chance on an MLS side if there was already a quota in place (or MLS recognized Canadians as domestics across the league, which to be honest, would be my preference, but as it stands now, that is an impossibility).

[Robert]

How does forcing Canadian teams to be worse "promote the interest of Canadians to take the Canadian game more seriously?"

If Canadian teams don't give Canadian players a chance play, then who will? Maybe I should have titled this thread as "Canadian soccer players' rightful place" instead. I don't know whether or not you have kids that love soccer, but if you do, wouldn't you want them to be given an opportunity to play? Listening to the radio broadcast of the final Whitecaps' regular season match a couple of months ago, you could hear the announcers and crowd alike, willing the coach to substitute one of the Canadian players on for the final minutes of the match. The Vancouver paying customers wanted to see one of their own. Sadly, the Whitecaps are the worst of all the Canadian professional clubs when it comes to fielding Canadian players. As much as it bothers me to say this, TFC does a far better job in the department of giving Canadian players a chance!

[killgod]

Is it possible that Jamaima has chosen to focus soley on the Hex at the expense of participating in the Gold Cup? If that is the case I like how they set their priorities.

They brought a strong lineup to that tournament. So no, they didn't focus elsewhere, they simply failed against inferior competition. But sure, change the words around to suit your aggravating agenda however you wish.

[Obinna]

I agree with most of what Robert says, and I disagree with LB.

I would happily sacrifice the quality of play in order to get more Canadians some game time. No question about it.

LB's argument is that we would just be producing more Galas or Lombardos. That may be true but it would also produce more Henrys and Morgans. We can debate how much of an impact such a quota would make, but I don't think you can make a solid argument that it would be worse than NO QUOTA.

As Canadian supporters, I think we should be less worried about attendance numbers or quality of play for the voyageurs cup and more worried about player development. Personally, I enjoy tuning into the voyageurs cup because I get to see a glimpse of up and coming Canadian talent. To be honest I don't even notice a real difference in quality with the MLS now, and already we see reserve players suiting up in this competition.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...Secondly, many players being developed in MLS academies are not going to make it to the first team, and that is a waste. A national D3 league operating regionally is required to keep good players playing.....

This issue will be addressed to a significant extent if we ever get to the point where there is a Canadian NASL team affiliated to each MLS team (i.e. something like Vancouver/Edmonton, Toronto/Hamilton and Montreal/Ottawa). Beyond that modifying the existing PDL setup into something that is a better fit for Canadian soccer, would help fill the void in cities like Victoria, Winnipeg and London, so there is probably no need to completely reinvent the wheel. It's good for people to have teams to cheer for in those cities, but not so good from a player development standpoint if they are filled with American NCAA players rather than Canadians as I think is often the case with the Thunder Bay Chill.

[Macksam]

This issue will be addressed to a significant extent if we ever get to the point where there is a Canadian NASL team affiliated to each MLS team (i.e. something like Vancouver/Edmonton, Toronto/Hamilton and Montreal/Ottawa). Beyond that modifying the existing PDL setup into something that is a better fit for Canadian soccer, would help fill the void in cities like Victoria, Winnipeg and London, so there is probably no need to completely reinvent the wheel. It's good for people to have teams to cheer for in those cities, but not so good from a player development standpoint if they are filled with American NCAA players rather than Canadians as I think is often the case with the Thunder Bay Chill.

Yeah, it would be better if all Canadian PDL teams were youth centric like Winnipeg.

[ag futbol]

I agree with most of what Robert says, and I disagree with LB.

I would happily sacrifice the quality of play in order to get more Canadians some game time. No question about it.

LB's argument is that we would just be producing more Galas or Lombardos. That may be true but it would also produce more Henrys and Morgans. We can debate how much of an impact such a quota would make, but I don't think you can make a solid argument that it would be worse than NO QUOTA.

As Canadian supporters, I think we should be less worried about attendance numbers or quality of play for the voyageurs cup and more worried about player development. Personally, I enjoy tuning into the voyageurs cup because I get to see a glimpse of up and coming Canadian talent. To be honest I don't even notice a real difference in quality with the MLS now, and already we see reserve players suiting up in this competition.

Absolutely.

Part of producing good vs. bad players is going to be about incentive the teams have to develop homegrown talent. The quotas today may be slightly on the low side, but overall I can't disagree with them. However, in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, they better well go up. As you said, if not our own clubs, then who will provide the opportunity?

And let's face it, we're not talking about producing world-beaters here. The last 5-10 guys on any MLS roster are usually pretty borderline professionals with tenuous attachments to the pro game. Is it THAT hard to fill the back end of your roster with our own guys? Shouldn't be, and to be frank as a customer it's part of what I want to pay to see.

[Obinna]

Absolutely.

Part of producing good vs. bad players is going to be about incentive the teams have to develop homegrown talent. The quotas today may be slightly on the low side, but overall I can't disagree with them. However, in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, they better well go up. As you said, if not our own clubs, then who will provide the opportunity?

And let's face it, we're not talking about producing world-beaters here. The last 5-10 guys on any MLS roster are usually pretty borderline professionals with tenuous attachments to the pro game. Is it THAT hard to fill the back end of your roster with our own guys? Shouldn't be, and to be frank as a customer it's part of what I want to pay to see.

+1

[Robert]

A new BC league with the top teams from PCSL and VMSL would be ideal, wouldn't it? But that's a pipe dream...

I don't think that taking a few of the best teams out of any existing league (that many people have worked very hard at to establish) and forming a new league with these teams is the way to go. I also don't think that this would receive very much support from those involved. I believe it would be far more constructive for any new structure formed to compliment and work together with existing leagues.

[Kent]

9 hours ago, neuker said:

I guess what happened to the Toronto Lynx and Ottawa Fury proved that point.

Hey Preacher, leave those clubs alone

 

I'm probably going to regret asking you a question, but how do the Toronto Lynx or Ottawa Fury prove your point about it being a bad idea to take teams from one league and put them in another? I guess the part about not getting support from those involved (assuming you are talking about team officials, rather than fans) came to fruition with how the Fury resisted going to CPL. But FC Edmonton didn't resist so there is a counter point I suppose.

I didn't follow the Lynx, so I'm not sure what you could be referring to there.

[Bison44]

Maybe its just the isolation, but quoting yourself from a 8 year old thread is really a stretch...even for Robert.   The fabric of society is starting to unravel.  

[Ivan]

And really, how many threads do we need revived or started new that say the same damn thing?  Yes, we get it, we have sucked for a long time.  The CSA could have done better.  I don't think anybody on here needs to see the stats to be reminded of what's gone on the last 35 years.

[JuicyHam]

22 hours ago, neuker said:

You answered your own question. If a team is forced to resist, there are obviously outside forces trying to make that club do something it really doesn't want to do. Why should the Fury be placed in such a position? Because the CPL wanted them to join? Because a handful of Voyageurs wanted them to join the CPL? Hey, I all for a new club or new league starting up, but not at the expense of existing clubs or existing leagues. And that is precisely what the CSA has done. Twice now!! The CSA never protected the Lynx! No, instead they threw their support behind a bigger, deeper-pocketed pop-up club, TFC. Same thing with the Fury, never mind what a local family did for years to operate a soccer club. No way, the CSA was over-joyed to see domestic club fold in favour of a new, bigger, deeper-pocketed, foreign pop-up club. As soon as something foreign with deep pockets comes along, the CSA is open for business. CANADIAN-OWNED SOCCER CLUBS BEWARE!

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