Canada's rightful place

[Robert]

A couple of you are bang on in your assessments that it's going to take a significant investment to get a suitable structure up and running. This investment will initially have to come from the CSA's coffers. As time goes on, the CSA will be able to recoup that investment from sponsors, investors and a system that will eventually become self-supporting. The CSA is showing that it can, albeit on a smaller scale, do something along these lines, as the training camps for the Women's program are proving. Whether the CSA has the balls and desire to do so for the Men's program remains to be seen.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Robert

[Redcoatsforever]

A couple of you are bang on in your assessments that it's going to take a significant investment to get a suitable structure up and running. This investment will initially have to come from the CSA's coffers.

Right you are, Robert. The CSA will just pull it out of those hundreds of millions of dollars they've been embezzling from...what, youth tournaments all these years?

The CSA doesn't have the money for this sort of thing, and would best contribute by providing a roadmap to the Provincial associations to make this happen, and putting them in touch with potential investors if they know of any.

As time goes on, the CSA will be able to recoup that investment from sponsors, investors and a system that will eventually become self-supporting.

I know the first thing I think of when I think "regionalized national third division" is "profit". When you say 'As time goes on' in this sentence, are you thinking fifty or a hundred years for such a system to be built entirely on the CSA dime?

The CSA is showing that it can, albeit on a smaller scale, do something along these lines, as the training camps for the Women's program are proving. Whether the CSA has the balls and desire to do so for the Men's program remains to be seen.

Yeah, we're totally not throwing in with the USSF on the women's game as well where leagues are concerned, and of course, the amount of balls and desire one has to achieve something equates to their level of funding and expertise. Training camps are much cheaper than a league structure, and the CSA-boogeyman shtick is really starting to get old.

Also, didn't you say you weren't going to be active on here anymore like, five dozen times in the past six months?

[Guest GoGreen]

I made a thread about this specifically that Canada compared to the 6 countries in the hexagonal phase of World Cup qualifying all had national leagues and the response was generally, do we need to bring these threads up again? what else is new? Stadiums? Investors?

Well, what is new is Canada still does not have a national professional league and we do not need all seat stadiums to kick start a league.

There is no structure where players can come back home in between clubs overseas to play at a high level of football. They resort to training with semi-professional clubs at best or individually. Bottom line is we need more professional teams, does not matter which league. In my opinion we cannot go another World Cup qualifying cycle without one.

Compare ourselves to the States, yes they have a larger population but, fact still remains is we need more maybe clubs. Maybe not as many but more nonetheless.

Here are the cold hard numbers. Not saying I have a solution but the CSA surely needs to address it and in my opinion allocate a poriton of the 30m annual budget to kick-starting something, and the CSL is not the answer.

The stats:

MLS (Division 1): Canada 3, USA 16

NASL/USL (Division 2): Canada 1, USA 8

USL Pro (Division 3): Canada 0, USA 12

CSL/NPSL (Division 4): Canada 16, USA 48

PDL (Development/Division 4): Canada 9, USA 51

Edited December 12, 2012 by GoGreen
formatting

[Guest GoGreen]

Right you are, Robert. The CSA will just pull it out of those hundreds of millions of dollars they've been embezzling from...what, youth tournaments all these years?

The CSA doesn't have the money for this sort of thing, and would best contribute by providing a roadmap to the Provincial associations to make this happen, and putting them in touch with potential investors if they know of any.

I know the first thing I think of when I think "regionalized national third division" is "profit". When you say 'As time goes on' in this sentence, are you thinking fifty or a hundred years for such a system to be built entirely on the CSA dime?

What I would like to do if I could was compare the budget of the CSA to those of the nations qualifying for the hex and thus the World Cups. Because it seems to me there are a lot of apologists here. No one is asking for the Premier League, or Bundesliga or even the MLS, but some type of structure is necessary. At the bare minimum a professional set-up sanctioned by the CSA to lend some credibility towards the project. If we're waiting for the investors and big money to get it sorted we could very well be waiting forever.

[Robert]

Rinus Michels once said; “Voetbal is orlog,” which translates to; “Soccer is War.” Having taken Ajax, the Dutch national team and Barcelona to unprecedented glory, one would have to concede that the “Dutch General” knew what he was talking about. In each instance, it certainly didn’t hurt to have a warrior like Johan Cruijff at his disposal.

Canada’s repeated record of being “general-less” for prolonged periods of time after being vanquished from one semi-final qualifying battlefield after another reflects the CSA’s ineptitude in the art of warfare. How can we expect our troops to be ready for their next World Cup battles, which will commence in 2014, without a general at the helm? Canada’s next general will now have less than two years time to mobilize a fighting force and formulate a strategy that will bring honor and prestige to this country on the international battlefields. Clearly, Victor Montagliani, our Commander in Chief, recognizes how critically important it is to replace an aging squad of veterans with fresh troops at the earliest possible opportunity. He is currently demonstrating this wisdom by staging a Vancouver camp for the Women’s national team, in order to ensure the best possible showing when they host the world in 2015?

With the Men’s National Team having one year less time to prepare for their next World Cup matches than the Women’s National Team, and given the fact that the CSA holds the principles of fair play and equal opportunities in high esteem, is it not high time that a general is appointed for the Men’s national team if our lads are to be given the same fighting chance to qualify for the next Hex?

For the sake of Canadian soccer it is equally crucial at this time for Victor Montagliani to dispel, as quickly as possible, the rapidly growing media and public perception that: “No sport in this country has squandered as much financial and human capital as soccer, due to a toxic combination of administrative incompetence, provincial infighting and wrong-headed player development. But in Sinclair, there is hope, especially with Canada slated to play host to the women’s World Cup in 2015” as was so honestly expressed by Jeff Blair in yesterday’s edition of the Globe & Mail.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Robert

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...Well, what is new is Canada still does not have a national professional league ...

The stats:

MLS (Division 1): Canada 3, USA 16

NASL/USL (Division 2): Canada 1, USA 8...

In per capita population terms, Canada actually has more pro teams than the United States at the moment. The problem is that those teams play in leagues which have historically been geared towards the NCAA as the main post-high school player development route and that clearly hasn't worked for Canadian soccer, because the CIS does not take soccer anything like as seriously as top US colleges do. Before giving up on MLS/NASL, however, I think we really need to see how the move towards academy systems and loaning out graduating academy players to D2 sides unfolds in the years ahead. If that displaces the Superdraft as the main source of domestic North American players as MLS appears to intend, I think we can reasonably expect to see many more Canadians on the rosters of MLS teams a decade from now than we do at the moment, who would have the ability to compete for CMNT roster spots.

[Redcoatsforever]

What I would like to do if I could was compare the budget of the CSA to those of the nations qualifying for the hex and thus the World Cups. Because it seems to me there are a lot of apologists here. No one is asking for the Premier League, or Bundesliga or even the MLS, but some type of structure is necessary. At the bare minimum a professional set-up sanctioned by the CSA to lend some credibility towards the project. If we're waiting for the investors and big money to get it sorted we could very well be waiting forever.

I didn't suggest we wait for people, I was responding to a suggestion that CSA can or should fund a national league structure on their own. They can't. The best we can expect from the CSA is a framework and to get some interested parties in contact with one another.

[madmonte]

I never understand the comments Canada doesn't have a pro league.

http://www.canadiansoccerleague.com/

The success or failure of such leagues and teams is fully dependant on the fans. How professional a league like the CSL becomes will depend on their revenue. Go support your local club, and if they are successful, maybe we'll even see something similar in alberta.

Also, maybe the guys will be paid more and it actually will become fully professional, instead of the actuality of pro-am (which it pretty much really is). But the fan interest HAS to be there.

Randomly checking out London City, for example, it only costs 10 dollars to go to a game and check it out.

http://canadiansoccerleague.com/teams/london.asp

London for example, has a stadium of 1000 people. Even so, often only 200 people show up to it's games. They rarely sell out.

So the structure is there if fans take advantage of it.

How can you convince people to spend millions on marketing and stadiums with those kind of numbers?

[Lord Bob]

The "Canadian" Soccer League, setting aside its obvious regionalism, is only semi-professional.

[madmonte]

The "Canadian" Soccer League, setting aside its obvious regionalism, is only semi-professional.

Which is fine, but the point I'm trying to make here is that to create a professional league, you would need more fan interest. Take the Medicine Hat Tigers, a JUNIOR hockey team. Those guys get 4000 per game, and now here in Medicine Hat we need a new arena because there is a waiting list for seats. Has been for YEARS, whether winning or losing. In Calgary, the Hitmen have a bigger stadium and average 9000 a game. Which destroys that 200 per game it's estimated that the CSL draws.

You can't solely blame marketing. The average fan here cares more about hockey than soccer no matter what you do. As soccer breaks through as a sport people enjoy watching (which is happening more and more in North America), you will only THEN see the leagues develop...without the fans to pay for it, a professional league can only remain semi-pro.

[Guest GoGreen]

Which is fine, but the point I'm trying to make here is that to create a professional league, you would need more fan interest. Take the Medicine Hat Tigers, a JUNIOR hockey team. Those guys get 4000 per game, and now here in Medicine Hat we need a new arena because there is a waiting list for seats. Has been for YEARS, whether winning or losing. In Calgary, the Hitmen have a bigger stadium and average 9000 a game. Which destroys that 200 per game it's estimated that the CSL draws.

You can't solely blame marketing. The average fan here cares more about hockey than soccer no matter what you do. As soccer breaks through as a sport people enjoy watching (which is happening more and more in North America), you will only THEN see the leagues develop...without the fans to pay for it, a professional league can only remain semi-pro.

Yes you need fan interest but you need the governing body to take a role in structure and implementation. It seems to me the only stumbling block is money.

[Guest GoGreen]

In per capita population terms, Canada actually has more pro teams than the United States at the moment. The problem is that those teams play in leagues which have historically been geared towards the NCAA as the main post-high school player development route and that clearly hasn't worked for Canadian soccer, because the CIS does not take soccer anything like as seriously as top US colleges do. Before giving up on MLS/NASL, however, I think we really need to see how the move towards academy systems and loaning out graduating academy players to D2 sides unfolds in the years ahead. If that displaces the Superdraft as the main source of domestic North American players as MLS appears to intend, I think we can reasonably expect to see many more Canadians on the rosters of MLS teams a decade from now than we do at the moment, who would have the ability to compete for CMNT roster spots.

I understand that. We may have more pro teams per capita in population terms but our Canadian teams are barely fielding any Canadian players precisely why we need a national league of our own. Perhaps one that drafts the top CIS players and gives them a chance to play at a higher level.

I read a thread about a UBC player invited to the USL Combine opting for a career in accounting. These are the players that need a pro league.

Why can't the CSA fund a national league structure on their own? Every other association seems to have one? Maybe its been talked to death on this forums, but if the CSA's annual budget is 30m I find it hard to believe they cannot allocate at least a portion of that to the start-up of one.

[Guest GoGreen]

I never understand the comments Canada doesn't have a pro league.

http://www.canadiansoccerleague.com/

The success or failure of such leagues and teams is fully dependant on the fans. How professional a league like the CSL becomes will depend on their revenue. Go support your local club, and if they are successful, maybe we'll even see something similar in alberta.

Also, maybe the guys will be paid more and it actually will become fully professional, instead of the actuality of pro-am (which it pretty much really is). But the fan interest HAS to be there.

Randomly checking out London City, for example, it only costs 10 dollars to go to a game and check it out.

http://canadiansoccerleague.com/teams/london.asp

London for example, has a stadium of 1000 people. Even so, often only 200 people show up to it's games. They rarely sell out.

So the structure is there if fans take advantage of it.

How can you convince people to spend millions on marketing and stadiums with those kind of numbers?

I have seen my local CSL clubs play. You won't convince people to spend millions on marketing and stadiums with hundreds of fans, but you won't get more fans if the quality on display or the packaging of the league isn't professional. CSL is a semi-pro league at best just a step above amateur ball. So expecting thousands for amateur soccer is unrealistic.

I'd say a handful of teams could make the step up, 5-6 at the most.

[Robert]

The question of how much money would be required to finance an annual professional structure (the key word here is "structure," which some continue to erroneously interpret as a "league") would be in my estimate somewhere in the neighbourhood of $4 to $5 million (all amounts in CDN$) per year. This investment would cover the costs of paying players and coaches salaries, travel and accommodation expenses, insurance and security expenses for approximately 48 matches. The returns generated from gate receipts, advertising, merchandise and broadcast rights are unknown at this time, but would not be expected to match the outlay of cash required for the first year, however, with proper management in place by years 2 and 3 the break-even point should be realistically within reach and in subsequent years profits should be realized.

Sounds a little more sane than the hundreds of millions of dollars and 50 to 100 years to recoup as someone sugested earlier doesn't it?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Robert

[madmonte]

I have seen my local CSL clubs play. You won't convince people to spend millions on marketing and stadiums with hundreds of fans, but you won't get more fans if the quality on display or the packaging of the league isn't professional. CSL is a semi-pro league at best just a step above amateur ball. So expecting thousands for amateur soccer is unrealistic.

I'd say a handful of teams could make the step up, 5-6 at the most.

Definitely a handful could do it. I agree, it's not black and white, you have to market to get fans, you have to get fans for marketing money. In this case, I'd agree...spend money to make money. It's an unfortunate truth, though, that you can't force people to get into something, I'm sure many of us wish most canadians were as passionate about soccer as the Voyageurs.

That said, it's shifting so more and more people are caring. I don't hate hockey or anything, but this lockout should be looked at as a serious opportunity to pick up fans that hockey is losing.

[Macksam]

A Canadian league doesn't need to be professional. It just has to serve a purpose and mean something. If a regional U-23 league is amateur, but develops players that move onto MLS, I think people will watch that league. The small soccer specific stadiums to accompany those teams would also be built as demand dictates.

[killgod]

This thread got a bit silly when Jamaica failed to qualify for the 2013 Gold Cup, despite using a top end lineup vs the likes of Cuba, Martinique and Guyana.

Their rightful place surely isn't the Hex if they falter there, no?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I understand that. We may have more pro teams per capita in population terms but our Canadian teams are barely fielding any Canadian players precisely why we need a national league of our own.....

In my post I explained why there are reasons for optimism where MLS is concerned and why we could see more CMNT quality Canadian players playing in it in future now that there is a shift away from youth soccer and NCAA scholarships as the main development pathway towards having academy systems and signing players in the 18 - 21 age range to pro level contracts with reserve/D2 level teams.

With five of the six Canadian cities with populations over 1 million now having or soon to have pro teams it's also difficult to see what the niche is for a separate standalone Canadian pro league running in parallel with that, even if the CSA had the finances to fund a new league, which they don't.

If, as seems likely, MLS teams scoop up most of the best prospects that don't go overseas and have them playing in their academy systems, it's even debatable what impact a U-23 development league would have given the niche for PDL at the moment tends to be to act as a summer league for NCAA scholarship players. Personally think it would be great to have a more Canadian-oriented semi-pro U-23 development league up and running for late bloomers and others who fall through the cracks when MLS/NASL is concerned but it probably wouldn't be in any way pivotal where developing the core of the national team roster is concerned.

Edited December 13, 2012 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Guest GoGreen]

In my post I explained why there are reasons for optimism where MLS is concerned and why we could see more CMNT quality Canadian players playing in it in future now that there is a shift away from youth soccer and NCAA scholarships as the main development pathway towards having academy systems and signing players in the 18 - 21 age range to pro level contracts with reserve/D2 level teams.

With five of the six Canadian cities with populations over 1 million now having or soon to have pro teams it's also difficult to see what the niche is for a separate standalone Canadian pro league running in parallel with that, even if the CSA had the finances to fund a new league, which they don't.

If, as seems likely, MLS teams scoop up most of the best prospects that don't go overseas and have them playing in their academy systems, it's even debatable what impact a U-23 development league would have given the niche for PDL at the moment tends to be to act as a summer league for NCAA scholarship players. Personally think it would be great to have a more Canadian-oriented semi-pro U-23 development league up and running for late bloomers and others who fall through the cracks when MLS/NASL is concerned but it probably wouldn't be in any way pivotal where developing the core of the national team roster is concerned.

Canadian MLS teams with few Canadians being developed in them also serves no purpose. I see threads every so often about Toronto FC, Vancouver and Montreal fielding few Canadians in their lineups. Not that they should have to, but a Canadian league would serve that purpose. Also the fact that we are still not qualifying for the hexagonal either means we are just not good enough and the ways to fix that are through grassroots and development or not to and to just concede that we are not.

Does there have to be a niche other than the fact that more Canadians will be able to play higher level soccer?

It would also be nice to have a system in place similar to the NCAA to MLS route, CIS to insert Canadian league name in addition to the MLS. Yes a few Canadians will get drafted and some may make it into training camp rosters of MLS squads, but many won't.

I see all of the American players that started off in the NCAA, made careers in the MLS and sometimes make their way into the USMNT, the Canadian equivalents either get drafted into the MLS and if they don't end up playing in amateur leagues or the CSL.

If we want to go the CSL route as someone stated, maybe the mere formality of a CIS draft is something to look at.

Edited December 13, 2012 by GoGreen

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Canadian MLS teams with few Canadians being developed in them also serves no purpose.....

....which is why it is good that MLS is actively moving away from the current NCAA/Superdraft model of player recruitment to one in which the most promising players are signed to fully pro contracts at around 18 years of age after "graduating" from MLS youth academies. The youth academies of the three MLS teams are almost completely dominated by Canadian players, so if they succeed on that there will be many more Canadians on MLS rosters in future. What is lacking at the moment is a way for these players to develop at a competitive D2 level rather than in a low key reserve division with a very limited schedule, because the jump from U-18 level to an MLS senior roster is a very difficult one. MLS are taking steps to sort that out:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/10/18/throw-mls-nasl-closer-working-partnership

If MLS were doing nothing to fix its broken system there might be a reason to look for alternatives, but given they are and given most of the top youth level prospects who don't go overseas are signing with MLS teams at the academy level if youth level national team rosters are any indication, I think the question about where the niche for a new national league would be is a valid one. In future, if there are three Canadian NASL teams affiliated to a degree with the three MLS teams you could easily be looking at 40 or 50 pro contracts for Canadians a decade or so from now.

Edited December 13, 2012 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Obinna]

Here are my thoughts on the last few posts:

Firstly, it is not realistic to expect a national league of 'NASL' quality. That would be the ideal situation but until there is an indication that may happen, let us not waste time talking about it.

Secondly, many players being developed in MLS academies are not going to make it to the first team, and that is a waste. A national D3 league operating regionally is required to keep good players playing. Right now, such players will likely drop to CSL, PSCL, Quebec Premier League, or any of the amateur leagues. An effective strategy would be to select the best regional semi pro/amateur leagues and place them under a national D3 umbrella, where clubs must be further "professionalized" by mandating subsidies to players ($300-$500 per game for example). This would be easier and more cost effective than creating a national D3 from scratch. MLS and NASL acadamies could be placed in such a league as well.

Thirdly, perhaps we can push Canadian requirements for the voyageurs cup. Something like "each team must start 5 Canadian players" or something to that effect. This would at least give a handful of academy kids at the MLS clubs an opportunity to get 4 professional games per season which would effectively fast track their development. We will still get situations like Cordon but I would rather such players get 4 or 8 games over a few seasons to their credit as opposed to nothing. This would also indirectly reward clubs like FC Edmonton by giving them a competitive advantage for playing Canadians. This is because the team is already largely Canadian and will not loose it's strength by having to play academy players.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Obinna

[Robert]

Thirdly, perhaps we can push Canadian requirements for the voyageurs cup. Something like "each team must start 5 Canadian players" or something to that effect. This would at least give a handful of academy kids at the MLS clubs an opportunity to get 4 professional games per season which would effectively fast track their development. We will still get situations like Cordon but I would rather such players get 4 or 8 games over a few seasons to their credit as opposed to nothing. This would also indirectly reward clubs like FC Edmonton by giving them a competitive advantage for playing Canadians. This is because the team is already largely Canadian and will not loose it's strength by having to play academy players.

I like this suggestion. Why should MLS clubs that do not field at least six Canadian players at all times be allowed to participate in a Canadian championship, especially when the champions go on to represent Canada in the CONCACAF Champions League? Where is the Canadian content in all of this? Never mind what they do in Europe, where the game is already well entrenched within each culture. Under the auspices of the CSA, what does this championship do to promote the interest of Canadians to take the Canadian game more seriously?

[Lord Bob]

How does forcing Canadian teams to be worse "promote the interest of Canadians to take the Canadian game more seriously?"

[maccaliam]

How does forcing Canadian teams to be worse "promote the interest of Canadians to take the Canadian game more seriously?"

The same way the MLS has been forced to be worse by mandating a minimum number of Americans to be on their rosters has benefitted both the league and their national team.

[Lord Bob]

The same way the MLS has been forced to be worse by mandating a minimum number of Americans to be on their rosters has benefitted both the league and their national team.

Ah, right, people came to MLS to watch Marvel Wynne and not David Beckham and Thierry Henry, how silly of me.