Canada's rightful place

[Robert]

Ah, just in time for Christmas. The latest issue of World Soccer, the leading English-language soccer publication, gives a statistical summary of the humiliating 8-1 drubbing in our most important match of the past 15 years. This only empathizes how far the Canadian game has been allowed to slide down the road towards oblivion. Was this outcome a surprise? Hardly! Were expectations unrealistic going into the match? Most definitely! The ongoing downward spiral was clearly evident in last year’s scoreless draws against Puerto Rico and St. Kitts and Nevis. This year Canada eked out a tough 1-0 win in Havana, was held to scoreless draw at home by Honduras, scored a sucker-punch goal to beat Panama in Toronto, only to be punished therefore by a 2-0 defeat in Panama, before claiming a 3-0 victory over a defection-deflated Cuba in Toronto. Truth be asked, how long has it been a since a Canadian team put in a solid performance against a worthy opponent in a meaningful match?

Of the six semi-final CONCACAF World Cup qualifying matches that Canada played in 2012, how many of the starting elevens earned their living in Canada? For that matter, how many Canadians earn $50,000 plus per year playing for one Canada’s four professional clubs? Faced with the reality that there are so few employment opportunities in this country, is it any wonder that so few Canadians choose to pursue a career in soccer?

Consequently, the CSA is forced every four years to scrounge up a national team from the few who persist on pursuing their dreams, by sacrificing their education and leaving Canada at a young age, to turn professional with lower-echelon clubs in foreign leagues. Only one of these dreamers, Owen **********, has thus far ended up playing for preeminent clubs, and he eventually chose to turn his back on Canada’s amateurishly-run national program to play for England in two World Cup Finals instead. Furthermore, the fact that the overwhelming majority of Canada’s national team play aboard means that they remain virtually unknown in their own country, and this obscurity does very little to attract the interest of new Canadian supporters.

Due to the lack of depth on the Canadian team, players like de Rosario continue to get called up for national duty way past their prime. If Dwayne failed 12 years ago, if he failed 8 years ago, and if he failed 4 years ago, why was he selected once again in 2012? He certainly isn’t getting any faster. The same holds true for players like Julian de Guzman and Pat Onstad. The latter was chosen for three consecutive cycles and on each occasion he surrendered weak goals that all but sealed Canada’s fate. Again, why do players like these continue to get selected? The answer is simple. It’s because the Canadian soccer structure currently in place fails to produce international-caliber soccer players that are good enough to replace these mediocre veterans.

During the past 15 years, Canada’s rightful place in the international soccer community has been somewhere in the 7th and 12th place range amongst CONCACAF nations. Simply put, the overseas players that the CSA selects to represent Canada internationally just don’t have what it takes when it comes to qualifying for CONCACAF’s preeminent tournament, the Hexagonal. The following list of nations that qualified for the past five Hex competitions amply confirms this assertion.

2013

Mexico

USA

Panama

Honduras

Jamaica

Costa Rica

2009

USA

Mexico

Honduras

Costa Rica

El Salvador

Trinidad and Tobago

2005

USA

Mexico

Costa Rica

Trinidad and Tobago

Guatemala

Panama

2001

Costa Rica

Mexico

USA

Honduras

Jamaica

Trinidad and Tobago

1997

Mexico

USA

Jamaica

Costa Rica

El Salvador

Canada

If one were to create a ranking based solely on qualification for the CONCACAF Hex over the past five cycles, by assigning a value of 1 point for every successful qualification and using a weighted-average that reduces these values by 20% for each cycle retroactively (1 x 1.0, 0.8, 0.6, 0.4 and 0.2 respectively), then the following standings would result:

3.0 Mexico (5 qualifications out of 5 cycles)

3.0 USA (5 for 5)

3.0 Costa Rica (5 for 5)

2.2 Honduras (3 for 5)

1.8 Trinidad and Tobago (3 for 5)

1.6 Jamaica (3 for 5)

1.6 Panama (2 for 5)

1.0 El Salvador (2 for 5)

0.6 Guatemala (1 for 5)

0.2 Canada (1 for 5)

Canada’s standing will not improve in the future unless some drastic changes are made to the Canadian soccer structure that is currently in place. With each passing cycle, it is becoming increasingly clear that Canada is falling further behind the progress that other CONCACAF countries are making. Without the changes needed to improve the development of the domestic talent pool, there is absolutely no way that Canada will ever finish ahead of two other CONCACAF countries in a four-country semi-final World Cup qualifying group!

In light of John Herdman’s disclosure yesterday that the CSA intends to rejuvenate the Women’s National Team, is it not fair to inquire if the Men’s National Team will be treated just as seriously and given an equal opportunity to qualify for the 2017 Hex? Since it is now just as apparent that our Men’s National Team is also desperately in need of an infusion of fresh blood, what are the CSA’s intensions to address this issue?

Edited December 10, 2012 by Robert

[jpg75]

You can't argue with facts. Completely embarrassing.

Did you guys know that with the exception of the 1994 WC Costa Rica has qualified to every Final round since 1985! And they've made the WC 3 times (1990, 2002 and 2006).

[alberta white]

The CSA. Footballs' only true Isolationist.

[Obinna]

Although I have some minor problems with your post that I could argue (deRosario past his prime even though his numbers say otherwise?) or are simply inaccurate (overwhelming majority of the CMNT does not play abroad), your assessment of the state of our national team is correct.

We can't argue with those facts and in WCQ we have not preformed to the level of Panama, Honduras, Costa Rica, or even Jamaica over the last 15 years. I think the belief is that we are better than our WCQ record indicates, and hardcore fans will blame the results on the lack of home support from the Canadian public. They will then cite our GC results as evidence that we are better than our WCQ record, but are we?

I use to think so but I no longer believe this. Perhaps it was the pride or fan bias in me, but after that Honduras result the illusion has been broken.

Our rightful place in the past 15 years is outside of the top 6 in CONCACAF.

We need to form a unified Canadian D3 league that competes regionally. We don't have to reinvent the wheel here; only a few new clubs would have to be created because the rest already exist. Some that exist as fully amateur may need some minor financial help for travel, but if the league was set up like this travel would be relatively minor (except Newfoundland, which you could simply neglect for the time being). Here is a sample of what it could look like....

Atlantic Canada:

Newfoundland (create new club)

Halifax City (Nova Scotia Soccer League)

Halifax Dunbrack (Nova Scotia Soccer League)

Fredericton Reds (McCain New Brunswick Premier League)

PEI (create new club)

Quebec:

Quebec City (create new club)

FC l’Assomption (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Blainville Soccer Association (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

FC Brossard (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

St-Leonard FC (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

FC Boisbriand (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Impact Academy (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Ottawa (NASL Academy team)

Ottawa (create new club)

Ontario (CSL teams):

Toronto Croatia

SC Toronto

Windsor Stars

York Region Shooters

Serbian White Eagles

TFC Academy

Niagara United

SC Waterloo

Mississauga Eagles FC

London City

Brampton City Utd

Brantford Galaxy

Kingston FC

St. Catharines Roma Wolves

North York Astros

Hamilton NASL acadamy

Sasktoba:

Sons of Italy SC (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

Winnipeg Lucania (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

Hellas SC (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

HUSA Alumni (Saskatchewan premier league)

ACFC Regina (Saskatchewan premier league)

Alberta (Alberta Major Soccer League teams)

Edmonton Dinamo Croatia

Edmonton Drillers

Edmonton Green and Gold

Edmonton Scottish

FC Edmonton Academy

Calgary Callies

Calgary Villains Elite F.C.

Calgary Dinos Major

Lethbridge FC

British Columbia:

let PSCL clubs continue and simply crown the highest ranking Canadian one as BC Champion.

Crown a winner from each region and these winners can either compete for a national D3 championship or gain entry into the Voyageurs cup.

........

Voyagers cup:

First Round (two leg away aggregate)

Match 1 - Toronto FC : D3 Sasktoba Champion

Match 2 - Montreal Impact : D3 Atlantic Champion

Match 3 - Vancouver Whitecaps : D3 British Columbia Champion

Match 4 - FC Edmonton : D3 Alberta Champion

Match 5 - Ottawa NASL : D3 Quebec Champion

Match 6 - Hamilton NASL : D3 Ontario Champion

Second Round: Group Stage

Group A Group B

Match 1 Winner Match 2 Winner

Match 4 Winner Match 3 Winner

Match 5 Winner Match 6 Winner

Final Round: Championship

Group A Winner vs Group B Winner (two legs away aggregate)

Edited December 6, 2012 by Obinna

[alberta white]

Like you thinking. What you describe is not that disimilar to the State set up in Australia: that which sits below the Hyundia A-league.

I have personal knowledge that the *SA clubs are run as profesional as possible, whilst remaining to the most part social in nature. They also not averse to paying players expenses or even appearance money. It's no way big bucks but the good players do feed up to the Reds from time to time.

* SA is the abbreviation for South Australia. Not the Republic of South Africa, which is actually RSA

[finchster]

We simply need more professional teams. There is 120 professional soccer jobs in Canada and the majority of the high end positions (MLS) are foreigners.

[Obinna]

Like you thinking. What you describe is not that disimilar to the State set up in Australia: that which sits below the Hyundia A-league.

I have personal knowledge that the *SA clubs are run as profesional as possible, whilst remaining to the most part social in nature. They also not averse to paying players expenses or even appearance money. It's no way big bucks but the good players do feed up to the Reds from time to time.

* SA is the abbreviation for South Australia. Not the Republic of South Africa, which is actually RSA

I am glad you like the idea.

I believe this is the best way to move forward. If existing clubs can be run in a more professional manner (like the clubs in South Australia) we will be on our way to progress. The clubs in the CSL and Quebec premier soccer league (and maybe PCSL?) already pay player expenses or appearance money, so we would just need clubs in Alberta, Sasktoba, and Atlantic Canada to adopt this practice.

I think this is a good way to expand the voyageurs cup as well, and it is certainly more realistic than hoping for 8 to 10 potential owners to appear out of thin air!

Edited December 7, 2012 by Obinna

[ThiKu]

Why PCSL winner for BC? Is PCSL better than VMSL? I dunno....prob not though.

[Obinna]

Why PCSL winner for BC? Is PCSL better than VMSL? I dunno....prob not though.

I have never been sure what the highest level is in BC so I listed PCSL. What is your opinion? At least PCSL play on a summer schedule so it would be synchronous with the rest of the country right?

[jpg75]

A new BC league with the top teams from PCSL and VMSL would be ideal, wouldn't it? But that's a pipe dream...

[SthMelbRed]

I am glad you like the idea.

I believe this is the best way to move forward. If existing clubs can be run in a more professional manner (like the clubs in South Australia) we will be on our way to progress. The clubs in the CSL and Quebec premier soccer league (and maybe PCSL?) already pay player expenses or appearance money, so we would just need clubs in Alberta, Sasktoba, and Atlantic Canada to adopt this practice.

I think this is a good way to expand the voyageurs cup as well, and it is certainly more realistic than hoping for 8 to 10 potential owners to appear out of thin air!

Other than the A League, which exists in a vacuum, separate from the grassroots of the sport, Australian soccer is set up in a true pyramid system, like most countries in the world. For example, this is the structure here in Victoria:

.........................Victorian Premier League

.........................State League 1

..........State League 2 NW...............State League 2 SE

..........State League 3 NW...............State League 3 SE

.....State 4 N..........State 4 W.....State 4 S..........State 4 E

.....State 5 N..........State 5 W.....State 5 S..........State 5 E

.....State 6 N..........State 6 W.....State 6 S..........State 6 E

Each division has 12 teams and most clubs have their own junior set-up. As you move up the divisions, the ground requirements become more and more strict. Many clubs started as ethnic clubs but most are now fairly inclusive, in terms of players, if not as much at the committee level. Anybody can start a club and apply to Football Federation Victoria to join the league. All new clubs start at the bottom.

My club, after playing in a Sunday amateur league for 41 years, applied to join the FFV leagues in 2010. After 3 consecutive promotions, we will be playing in State 4 next season (there has been a reshuffle which saw the two bottom divisions amalgamated from next year). We are strictly an amateur club, with all players paying an annual fee to become a club member. Most clubs that we will compete with at the State 4 level will be paying many of their players, though. At State 3 level, all but one or two clubs are paying players and at State 2 every senior player will be getting paid something. Players at VPL clubs will be getting from $300-500/game for a 22 game season. A League clubs will scout the various state leagues looking for players.

When compared to Vancouver, the third largest Canadian city, and the one with the climate best suited for developing top-class players, the Australian system is in a different universe. In Vancouver, you have different leagues spread across the metro area. I'd like to see the BCSA implement a system in Vancouver where the largest youth clubs would also be asked to field senior teams. There could then be a single pyramid league where there would be proper competition between all of the best players that the province can develop.

Edited December 7, 2012 by SthMelbRed

[Lord Bob]

PCSL and VMSL Premier are very close and, indeed, often enough have many of the same players. FVSL is also competitive enough for our purposes. No British Columbia championship could be legitimate without both leagues being represented, and better people than I have tried to arrange that in the past. They don't even play the same schedule for crying out loud.

[Obinna]

Other than the A League, which exists in a vacuum, separate from the grassroots of the sport, Australian soccer is set up in a true pyramid system, like most countries in the world. For example, this is the structure here in Victoria:

.........................Victorian Premier League

..........State League 1 NW...............State League 1 SE

..........State League 2 NW...............State League 2 SE

..........State League 3 NW...............State League 3 SE

.....State 4 N..........State 4 W.....State 4 S..........State 4 E

.....State 5 N..........State 5 W.....State 5 S..........State 5 E

.....State 6 N..........State 6 W.....State 6 S..........State 6 E

Each division has 12 teams and most clubs have their own junior set-up. As you move up the divisions, the ground requirements become more and more strict. Many clubs started as ethnic clubs but most are now fairly inclusive, in terms of players, if not as much at the committee level. Anybody can start a club and apply to Football Federation Victoria to join the league. All new clubs start at the bottom.

My club, after playing in a Sunday amateur league for 41 years, applied to join the FFV leagues in 2010. After 3 consecutive promotions, we will be playing in State 4 next season (there has been a reshuffle which saw the two bottom divisions amalgamated from next year). We are strictly an amateur club, with all players paying an annual fee to become a club member. Most clubs that we will compete with at the State 4 level will be paying many of their players, though. At State 3 level, all but one or two clubs are paying players and at State 2 every senior player will be getting paid something. Players at VPL clubs will be getting from $300-500/game for a 22 game season. A League clubs will scout the various state leagues looking for players.

When compared to Vancouver, the third largest Canadian city, and the one with the climate best suited for developing top-class players, the Australian system is in a different universe. In Vancouver, you have different leagues spread across the metro area. I'd like to see the BCSA implement a system in Vancouver where the largest youth clubs would also be asked to field senior teams. There could then be a single pyramid league where there would be proper competition between all of the best players that the province can develop.

Great post and super interesting to hear how things are run down there. I wish they same thing was being done in BC.

[SthMelbRed]

I actually got the structure wrong in my first post. State League 1 is not split by region. I've fixed this. The other thing to note is that each team is required to field both a senior and reserve team for each weekend's fixtures. In the top 2 divisions, the reserve league is restricted U21 players.

There is also a complementary 'Thirds' league that runs on Sundays, as well as a Masters (35+) league. The Thirds league incorporates six divisions, with all but the top one split into two regions. Teams in the Thirds and Masters can field a maximum of 2 players who played in a Senior or Reserve fixture that weekend. This allows a club to field numerous teams catering for a variety of skill-levels. Basically, you have more than 200 clubs fielding more than 500 teams, not including youth/juniors, in a single, competitive structure. Every player knows where they stand based on the team they are playing in.

[ThiKu]

Lord Bob's last post is spot-on. VMSL is better than FVSL but the top 2 in FVSL certainly would be competitive in the VMSL - although likely mid-table at very best. Competitive nonetheless.

Certainly PCSL and VMSL/FVSL have a tonne of the same players - ie, this year Chile from VMSL is playing in PCSL. Last year Poco from FVSL played in PCSL etc etc.

A combo of the top teams from VISL, FVSL, PCSL, and VMSL to create a semi-pro league would be superb but I don't see it happening. Although there are some excellent teams in there, most really are just out for a laugh even if they take the game serious between the lines.

Any BC entrant into a national league may see some of these clubs move over but in reality it'll be new teams forming a BC entrant into a national league.

I imagine Surrey United and Central City or Surrey FC would put together a team. Metro-Ford probably. But after that....who knows. New teams? Highlanders? Etc etc too many questions t ask.

[Robert]

Although I have some minor problems with your post that I could argue (deRosario past his prime even though his numbers say otherwise?) or are simply inaccurate (overwhelming majority of the CMNT does not play abroad), your assessment of the state of our national team is correct.

We can't argue with those facts and in WCQ we have not preformed to the level of Panama, Honduras, Costa Rica, or even Jamaica over the last 15 years. I think the belief is that we are better than our WCQ record indicates, and hardcore fans will blame the results on the lack of home support from the Canadian public. They will then cite our GC results as evidence that we are better than our WCQ record, but are we?

I use to think so but I no longer believe this. Perhaps it was the pride or fan bias in me, but after that Honduras result the illusion has been broken.

Our rightful place in the past 15 years is outside of the top 6 in CONCACAF.

We need to form a unified Canadian D3 league that competes regionally. We don't have to reinvent the wheel here; only a few new clubs would have to be created because the rest already exist. Some that exist as fully amateur may need some minor financial help for travel, but if the league was set up like this travel would be relatively minor (except Newfoundland, which you could simply neglect for the time being). Here is a sample of what it could look like....

Atlantic Canada:

Newfoundland (create new club)

Halifax City (Nova Scotia Soccer League)

Halifax Dunbrack (Nova Scotia Soccer League)

Fredericton Reds (McCain New Brunswick Premier League)

PEI (create new club)

Quebec:

Quebec City (create new club)

FC l’Assomption (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Blainville Soccer Association (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

FC Brossard (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

St-Leonard FC (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

FC Boisbriand (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Impact Academy (QUEBEC PREMIER SOCCER LEAGUE)

Ottawa (NASL Academy team)

Ottawa (create new club)

Ontario (CSL teams):

Toronto Croatia

SC Toronto

Windsor Stars

York Region Shooters

Serbian White Eagles

TFC Academy

Niagara United

SC Waterloo

Mississauga Eagles FC

London City

Brampton City Utd

Brantford Galaxy

Kingston FC

St. Catharines Roma Wolves

North York Astros

Hamilton NASL acadamy

Sasktoba:

Sons of Italy SC (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

Winnipeg Lucania (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

Hellas SC (Manitoba Major Soccer League)

HUSA Alumni (Saskatchewan premier league)

ACFC Regina (Saskatchewan premier league)

Alberta (Alberta Major Soccer League teams)

Edmonton Dinamo Croatia

Edmonton Drillers

Edmonton Green and Gold

Edmonton Scottish

FC Edmonton Academy

Calgary Callies

Calgary Villains Elite F.C.

Calgary Dinos Major

Lethbridge FC

British Columbia:

let PSCL clubs continue and simply crown the highest ranking Canadian one as BC Champion.

Crown a winner from each region and these winners can either compete for a national D3 championship or gain entry into the Voyageurs cup.

........

Voyagers cup:

First Round (two leg away aggregate)

Match 1 - Toronto FC : D3 Sasktoba Champion

Match 2 - Montreal Impact : D3 Atlantic Champion

Match 3 - Vancouver Whitecaps : D3 British Columbia Champion

Match 4 - FC Edmonton : D3 Alberta Champion

Match 5 - Ottawa NASL : D3 Quebec Champion

Match 6 - Hamilton NASL : D3 Ontario Champion

Second Round: Group Stage

Group A Group B

Match 1 Winner Match 2 Winner

Match 4 Winner Match 3 Winner

Match 5 Winner Match 6 Winner

Final Round: Championship

Group A Winner vs Group B Winner (two legs away aggregate)

I like your concept of a structure that includes all parts of Canada because I believe there is potential international talent in every part of this country. I also agree, in part, with your model of a cup competition for the Voyageurs Cup, primarily because Canada at this time is not ready to support a national (coast-to-coast) league. The fall of the Canadian Soccer League, plus several studies that have been done in the past to consider the viability of such a league, both support this fact. The financial returns of such a league, at this time, would not justify the investment needed to set up and operate such a venture.

My problem with your proposal is that I do not see how such a competition would improve the quality of the players involved to the point where they could play for Canada at the level of the Hex. Again, there just isn't enough money for these players to sacrafies their education, or to get time off from work to play in such a championship. It would remain an amateur competition for amateur players, who are are just not going to get Canada to the Hex!

We have to come up with a structure in Canada, which will develop Canadian talent to the point where these players are capable of representing at the Hex level of competition. I do not see that level of talent coming from the teams that you have mentioned.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Robert

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's easy enough to take a bunch of amateur and semi-pro club names and put them into some sort of national league structure, but what does this have to do with the ability of the CMNT to reach the hex? If you think the performance in qualifiers is bad now with full-time professionals from MLS and European teams, it would be considerably worse with D3 level amateur and semi-pro players. This whole national league issue diverts attention away from the question of why the CSA failed to go out and hire a credible coach for this qualification cycle. Did anyone seriously think that Stephen Hart was going to be the answer? The CSA doesn't have the finances to solve the national league issue in a manner that is likely to be relevant where the national team is concerned, but hiring somebody of the calibre of Holger Osieck shouldn't be mission impossible for them.

Edited December 8, 2012 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[canucklefan]

It's easy enough to take a bunch of amateur and semi-pro club names and put them into some sort of national league structure, but what does this have to do with the ability of the CMNT to reach the hex? If you think the performance in qualifiers is bad now with full-time professionals from MLS and European teams, it would be considerably worse with D3 level amateur and semi-pro players. This whole national league issue diverts attention away from the question of why the CSA failed to go out and hire a credible coach for this qualification cycle. Did anyone seriously think that Stephen Hart was going to be the answer? The CSA doesn't have the finances to solve the national league issue in a manner that is likely to be relevant where the national team is concerned, but hiring somebody of the calibre of Holger Osieck shouldn't be mission impossible for them.

I like your point of view that structure alone won't be enough to change things here, but the idea of hiring a competent TD won't solve the lack of developing talent and I'm not sure that someone of the caliber of Osieck would have guaranteed us a place in the Hex.

[Robert]

Amateur players have jobs or study. They practice maybe three nights a week. Professional players practice during the day, every day, and several times during the day. Right now, Canada does not have enough professional players to enter a competitive team for World Cup qualifying and the CSA has no answer to this dilemma.

[Macksam]

Amateur players have jobs or study. They practice maybe three nights a week. Professional players practice during the day, every day, and several times during the day. Right now, Canada does not have enough professional players to enter a competitive team for World Cup qualifying and the CSA has no answer to this dilemma.

Based on this, I think the only viable solution that would work for the next little while is for the CSA and MLS clubs to put funding into an elite 20 team CIS division, where all the teams hire full, properly licensed coaches (with the help of CSA funding) and all the players have paid scholarships (funded by MLS clubs). This solution would solve two problems, such as allowing kids to continue their studies and giving them a place to go after 18 if they don't make it to MLS right away.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I like your point of view that structure alone won't be enough to change things here, but the idea of hiring a competent TD won't solve the lack of developing talent and I'm not sure that someone of the caliber of Osieck would have guaranteed us a place in the Hex.

Nothing would be guaranteed that's for sure, but I think the players are there to do considerably better than has been happening in recent qualification cycles with a better coach in place, who gets a reasonable level of backing to prepare the team through quality international friendlies and training camps. Would agree with Robert that the depth isn't there right now for actual qualification to be anything other than a long shot, but I'm hopeful that the three MLS academy systems will eventually make a difference on that especially if as seems likely in the years ahead MLS develops closer links with D2 level teams to fill in the void between the academy level and being on an MLS roster.

[Obinna]

I like your concept of a structure that includes all parts of Canada because I believe there is potential international talent in every part of this country. I also agree, in part, with your model of a cup competition for the Voyageurs Cup, primarily because Canada at this time is not ready to support a national (coast-to-coast) league. The fall of the Canadian Soccer League, plus several studies that have been done in the past to consider the viability of such a league, both support this fact. The financial returns of such a league, at this time, would not justify the investment needed to set up and operate such a venture.

My problem with your proposal is that I do not see how such a competition would improve the quality of the players involved to the point where they could play for Canada at the level of the Hex. Again, there just isn't enough money for these players to sacrafies their education, or to get time off from work to play in such a championship. It would remain an amateur competition for amateur players, who are are just not going to get Canada to the Hex!

We have to come up with a structure in Canada, which will develop Canadian talent to the point where these players are capable of representing at the Hex level of competition. I do not see that level of talent coming from the teams that you have mentioned.

The proposal would not directly produce international quality players, you are right about that one. What it would do is provide a platform for hidden gems to showcase their talent to 'larger' clubs (MLS/NASL). This proposal would give talented amateur/semi pro players a goal to strive for. Right now there is a disconnect between the professional ranks and the amateur/semi pro, and I believe this is a cost effective and logical solution.

In order to produce international quality players we need a massive investment (as you know), and I do not see any indication that is on the horizon. We cannot depend on NASL clubs to produce international quality talent. The level of MLS would be sufficient to produce the talent we need, but we are restricted because Canadians are not considered domestics for the American clubs. This HAS to change. That is the solution. We would have double the players in MLS if it were not for such a restrictive rule. We have to push the Canadian MLS clubs on this or at least question them and ask if there are any discussions to find a solution.

[Obinna]

Based on this, I think the only viable solution that would work for the next little while is for the CSA and MLS clubs to put funding into an elite 20 team CIS division, where all the teams hire full, properly licensed coaches (with the help of CSA funding) and all the players have paid scholarships (funded by MLS clubs). This solution would solve two problems, such as allowing kids to continue their studies and giving them a place to go after 18 if they don't make it to MLS right away.

That is a nice idea, but CIS coaches are already properly licensed. The CIS season is short and from experience I can tell you that you practice more with your amateur club team in the summer than you do with your CIS team (or at least that was my experience).

What I would like to see are CIS teams align with amateur teams. You already see this with Edmonton Green and Gold (U of A), Calgary Dinos Major (U of C), HUSA Alumni (U of S), Fredericton Reds (UNB) and Vancouver Thunderbirds (UBC). The benefits are obvious when you have more or less the same team play together from May to November, rather than May to August (senior amateur summer season)...or September to November (university season).

Imagine if every CIS team aligned with a team from the proposal I posted, that would be a big help no?

[Red and White]

The level of MLS would be sufficient to produce the talent we need, but we are restricted because Canadians are not considered domestics for the American clubs. This HAS to change. That is the solution. We would have double the players in MLS if it were not for such a restrictive rule. We have to push the Canadian MLS clubs on this or at least question them and ask if there are any discussions to find a solution.

I don't think there's much we can do here. MLS is a double-edged sword for us. On the one hand, its a great league to have our best playing in, with the massive bonus of having it in the same continent and time zones. But, at the end of the day, its not our domestic league. It has extremely limited ability to actually find and develop talent for us, outside the three Academies for Canadian clubs. Its barely doing its job of developing US talent because teams are starting to look for internationals to lead them both on and off the pitch (both results and marketing potential).

While our players have limited roster spots in MLS, we have to make sure that the players we send are good. It is OUR job to dig around the country and find talent. WE also have to develop that talent until we have a collection of MLS caliber players that can compete in the league, not because domestic rules allow them to be there, but because teams are willing to spend an international roster spot on them. If we have about 10-15 Will Johnson, Andre Hainault, and DeRo caliber players running around MLS, we're in great shape.

Other CONCACAF countries are starting to figure this out. Most of their rosters play domestically, with their best starting to realize that MLS is where to maintain high caliber talent. Its time we start mining for talent in Canada. I don't care what we put below MLS and NASL anymore, I just want to see some sort of domestic league setup. The one mentioned in this thread (promoting existing clubs) is a great start. Otherwise, we'll continue to be mediocre while the rest of CONCACAF keeps pressing an advantage on us.

[Macksam]

That is a nice idea, but CIS coaches are already properly licensed. The CIS season is short and from experience I can tell you that you practice more with your amateur club team in the summer than you do with your CIS team (or at least that was my experience).

What I would like to see are CIS teams align with amateur teams. You already see this with Edmonton Green and Gold (U of A), Calgary Dinos Major (U of C), HUSA Alumni (U of S), Fredericton Reds (UNB) and Vancouver Thunderbirds (UBC). The benefits are obvious when you have more or less the same team play together from May to November, rather than May to August (senior amateur summer season)...or September to November (university season).

Imagine if every CIS team aligned with a team from the proposal I posted, that would be a big help no?

This could work well. I think Milltown FC is partnering with UTM ( University of Toronto, Mississauga campus). If Ontario League 1 makes this a requirement for its clubs, the league would have another plus in my book.

I think the planned, regional U23 league should do something like this. Have each club partner with a University for the CIS soccer season. This makes sure the players are getting an education along with their soccer development. It's a great Canadian solution to our Canadian player development problem.