Julian De Guzman

[madmonte]

So JDG is in the re-entry draft and out of contract. Given his status as a DP last year, and his performance level in MLS, what are you guys' predictions regarding JDG? Does he sign in MLS for a lot less money? Does he try options abroad? Might be some tough choices for JDG this winter?

[mowe]

He will get no MLS offers and sign with a lower league in Spain or Germany.

[Esco0428]

JDG will probably attempt to test the European markets. Would not be surprised if he even decides to go to a second tier division in either Germany or Spain. $$$ wise, he's made quite a bit through his contract with Toronto FC, so I truly don't think that is an issue. If he's unable to find anything in Europe, would not be shocked if he then comes back to MLS as a last resort, and would probably accept something the $150K - $300K range.

[Bertuzzi44]

Barca or bust

[Bully]

I'm going to say a 2.Bundesliga team or a sub-par MLS contract.. with Columbus.

[Obinna]

^Good points.

I also see him landing in the B2 or segunda division, but my bet would be Germany because of family considerations. I doubt he would get a contract for 300k in MLS, I would think offers of 150-250k are more likely. I really have a hard time picturing him accepting this, so my guess is that he ends up signing on a free in Europe for 500-600k Canadian. I don't think he would get more than that.

[rob.notenboom]

^Good points.

I also see him landing in the B2 or segunda division, but my bet would be Germany because of family considerations. I doubt he would get a contract for 300k in MLS, I would think offers of 150-250k are more likely. I really have a hard time picturing him accepting this, so my guess is that he ends up signing on a free in Europe for 500-600k Canadian. I don't think he would get more than that.

Is Mexico a possibility? Would suit his playing style.

[Free kick]

Somewhere along the line (between his early years on MNT in the early part of the decade to his move to Spain) JDG lost his ability to influence and change a game. The big mystery is how did that happen and why? There was a time when you wouldn't get any argument from me or anybody else here that he was one the best players in CONCACAF.

But over the past four years with TFC and on the NT, you would see a little glimpse (very briefly) of that ability maybe once every five games. But the rest of the time you would see nothing more that just someone who fills a role on a team. That might be putting it generously.

He declared himself to be a defensive Midfielder. Ok that's fine but a d-mid has great deal of influence on how a team looks (ie.: organized and in control of games) and, TFC has never looked worst in that aspect and coincidentally, the slide occurred exactly at the time of his arrival. Since TFC first game in 2007, there was always progress (OK maybe too slow for some but still progress) each passing year prior to his arrival. But then came a slide. A d-mid also has an impact on how a team plays defensively. But even there, TFC has never looked worst defensively as club.

Its not age because he is not over the hill. So I am at loss.

[Grizzly]

Somewhere along the line (between his early years on MNT in the early part of the decade to his move to Spain) JDG lost his ability to influence and change a game. The big mystery is how did that happen and why? There was a time when you wouldn't get any argument from me or anybody else here that he was one the best players in CONCACAF.

But over the past four years with TFC and on the NT, you would see a little glimpse (very briefly) of that ability maybe once every five games. But the rest of the time you would see nothing more that just someone who fills a role on a team. That might be putting it generously.

He declared himself to be a defensive Midfielder. Ok that's fine but a d-mid has great deal of influence on how a team looks (ie.: organized and in control of games) and, TFC has never looked worst in that aspect since when he arrived. Coincidentally, the slide occurred exactly at the time of his arrival. Since TFC first game in 2007, there was always progress (OK maybe too slow for some but still progress) each passing year prior to his arrival. But then came a slide. A d-mid also has an impact on how a team plays defensively. But even then TFC has never looked worst defensively.

Its not age because he is not over the hill. So I am at loss.

I have been saying pretty much the same thing for several years and getting lots of heat for it because I apparently have it in for JDG since the Montreal incident. Nice to hear it from someone else. Seldom do you see a player decline so rapidly like that during what should be the prime of his career. And while he might not have been suited for a DP role, I don't think one can blame this on MLS or TFC. Others have come to MLS and their playing level has not suffered and as you say, while he was not a DP level player at TFC he didn't even fulfill the role of a solid defensive mid adequately. Compare him to Carl Robinson, for example, a player who I thought was slightly overpaid but nevertheless was a solid defensive midfielder and always looked like a good player on a poor team. JDG by contrast always looked like a player on a poor team who was just as bad as the others. And his national team play declined equally.

As to the reasons I think the Montreal incident (not to mention a lot of other info I have about him) indeed does give a lot of insight into what happened. I think the decline was due mostly to attitude/lifestyle issues. When he was making his way up in Germany and Spain he was hungry, motivated and very serious about his career. Once he made it to the top level and big money he started to enjoy himself. And it should be noted the decline started in his last year in Spain not once he arrived in MLS. And concerning the national team, if we are going to bitch about McKenna's attitude as captain, we certainly should be even more critical of JDG who was also supposed to be a leader on the national team. At least McKenna saved his comments for half-time when we were already down 4-0, JDG was making poorly timed claims about his brother playing for us the day before the game. As bad as JDG has been on the field in the last 4 years for Canada and TFC he was even more disastrous as a leader for both teams.

As to where he will end up, my prediction is the German 3rd division. While he has contacts in Europe, I doubt all of this has gone unnoticed. I think in MLS terms he is worth roughly $150 000, in Europe he may get slightly over $200 000. I don't think he has the level for the Spanish 2nd division. He might be able to latch on with a 2nd Bundesliga team with his contacts but I would bet more on 3rd or possibly a lower table team in Denmark. Regardless, he is about to get the nasty wake up call of where he has landed himself career-wise in both salary and league level.

[ag futbol]

Its not age because he is not over the hill. So I am at loss.

If I had to venture a guess, I think he's breaking down at least partially physically. He's not old, but athletically he looks well below his watershed GC 2007 form. A lot players significantly change physically between their early 20s and late 20s. The reason why you don't notice it as much is they often become a lot more effective tactically and in other areas.

To me it looks like he's doing a lot of the same things, but he's a step slower and can't be as effective at doing them. His game hasn't really changed much and I don't think going to MLS has really helped his "evolution".

[El Hombre]

I have been saying pretty much the same thing for several years and getting lots of heat for it because I apparently have it in for JDG since the Montreal incident. Nice to hear it from someone else.

People (ie. me) say that because you always follow up a critique of his athletic ability with criticisms in personality like:

As to the reasons I think the Montreal incident (not to mention a lot of other info I have about him) indeed does give a lot of insight into what happened. I think the decline was due mostly to attitude/lifestyle issues.

and

Once he made it to the top level and big money he started to enjoy himself.

And

As bad as JDG has been on the field in the last 4 years for Canada and TFC he was even more disastrous as a leader for both teams.

which are almost entirely conjecture based on a few incidents over a 5 year span. Yeah, he may not be a model citizen, but few professional athletes are and rarely are personality shortcomings the root cause of perceived declining abilities. One might want to point to things like torn menicuses (2011) or unrealistic expectations (ie. prior to joining MLS, he had only scored 3 goals his entire career).

Ability-wise, he is still an adequate MLS player. I think he'll try Europe and if that doesn't work out, he'll catch on somewhere in MLS for $150K.

[Free kick]

Well I cant comment on the character and personality issues. I just don't know. I believe that you can be party animal and not a role model in the leadership department but still be very talented. If you are very talent you want to show it, that's Human nature.

I think that, judging from some his interviews after he left TFC, he seems to care. But what i saw, was the disappearance of talent. how does that happen? even players who get in the mid to late thirties, may slow down a little. But they don't lose their talent. Beckham is prime example, maybe they lose a fraction of a second in pace and the body has more problems with the grind of a long schedule. But you still see the talent.

[villus]

I think its down to his athleticism. He was always a very athletic, quick player over the last few years hes had a couple injuries and with natural aging his game has suffered. Especially in a league like MLS which is very physical an undersized player losing alot of the athletic ability he used effectively for years hurts your game, especially considering TFC was ill suited to utilize the strengths he still had. I hope he can find a B2 team and get to his best, although his best now is obviously not going to be his 2007 days but as a serviceable holding mid who can hopefully do a bit more than just insta pass back.

[dobar dan]

his best decision would be to retire, he is done and he should face that reality. There are thousands of players all over Europe that are better than him and can play second or third division without a club wasting their money on a player that no longer is at the top of his game.

[Free kick]

I think its down to his athleticism. He was always a very athletic, quick player over the last few years hes had a couple injuries and with natural aging his game has suffered. Especially in a league like MLS which is very physical an undersized player losing alot of the athletic ability he used effectively for years hurts your game, especially considering TFC was ill suited to utilize the strengths he still had. I hope he can find a B2 team and get to his best, although his best now is obviously not going to be his 2007 days but as a serviceable holding mid who can hopefully do a bit more than just insta pass back.

Sorry but this sound like "appoligists talk" (ie.: its physical league, its the fault of the league, He is too good for the league, Its TFC's fault, TFC not good enough..etc etc). I bought that to a point (like in year one), but not anymore. Because his play on the national team over the past two years was no different than what i saw with TFC. Does that mean Concacaf is too physical? Or that its that he is not surounded by good players etc. I use to think that he was the kind talent that makes others around him better.

He is not old. He is 30-31 years old. Your prime in this game is about 29.

[Obinna]

Mexico would be an interesting move. As much as his level has declined, his game is more suited for Mexico, and I don't think it is a coincidence that he nearly always put in good preformances in the CCL against Liga MX teams. Mexico may also be the only place he gets a decent offer. The league is spashing more money than usual and are bringing in several former La Liga players. Julian fits that bill and he may also have some additional exposure from CCL. I don't think he would be a starter in Liga MX, but maybe a decent depth player comming off the bench. I know that Liga MX is still a good bit ahead of MLS in terms of quality, but the style of league would allow Julian to get some minutes (albiet limited).

I don't think he would accept anything in B3 (even if that is what his level warrents), if all he can get in Europe is a move to B3 or a bottom table club in a league like Denmark or Switzerland, I think he would rather take the 150,000 he would likely get in MLS.

[Obinna]

Sorry but this sound like "appoligists talk" (ie.: its physical league, its the fault of the league, He is too good for the league, Its TFC's fault, TFC not good enough..etc etc). I bought that to a point (like in year one), but not anymore. Because his play on the national team over the past two years was no different than what i saw with TFC. Does that mean Concacaf is too physical? Or that its that he is not surounded by good players etc. I use to think that he was the kind talent that makes others around him better.

He is not old. He is 30-31 years old. Your prime in this game is about 29.

I hear what your saying about the league and TFC's inability to play a posession game. You right you can't attribute his decline to those things completely. It was likely a combination of attitude, physical wear and tear on his body, and style of league. If Julian de Guzman's agent can convince a club in Liga MX to take a chance on him, I expect nothing more than what we have seen of him with the NT. Over the last few years he has put in mostly acceptable preformances, and from what I have seen he has had VERY few games with Canada that were SHOCKINGLY bad like many of his TFC games were.

[villus]

Sorry but this sound like "appoligists talk" (ie.: its physical league, its the fault of the league, He is too good for the league, Its TFC's fault, TFC not good enough..etc etc). I bought that to a point (like in year one), but not anymore. Because his play on the national team over the past two years was no different than what i saw with TFC. Does that mean Concacaf is too physical? Or that its that he is not surounded by good players etc. I use to think that he was the kind talent that makes others around him better.

He is not old. He is 30-31 years old. Your prime in this game is about 29.

His play has regressed overall, I never claimed it didn't but has he not played better with the NT then with TFC? Did he not play better with Dallas then TFC? Hes played his worst soccer for TFC, and although hes regressed even if he was at his peak he still wouldn't have been utilized efficiently enough in the style and players they used. When players rely on speed and then its not there anymore you really have to adjust to it, he hasn't done a great job and when you consider hes a very small guy take away a bit of his quickness and its going to show. And sorry to break it to you but 30+ in soccer and people start slowing down athletically throw in some serious injuries and its not a great combo.

Call it whatever you want, the guy clearly isn't what he was in 2007 for whatever reason, but he still has value and if he gets in the right system he could come back strong, its not uncommon to happen in the soccer world. Regardless of JDG it won't change the fact that TFC is a horrible team and horribly ran organization does that make me a JDG apologist? I don't know, but we can definetely say that consistently TFC has shown they have no clue what they are doing.

[Grizzly]

People (ie. me) say that because you always follow up a critique of his athletic ability with criticisms in personality like:

and

And

which are almost entirely conjecture based on a few incidents over a 5 year span. Yeah, he may not be a model citizen, but few professional athletes are and rarely are personality shortcomings the root cause of perceived declining abilities. One might want to point to things like torn menicuses (2011) or unrealistic expectations (ie. prior to joining MLS, he had only scored 3 goals his entire career).

Ability-wise, he is still an adequate MLS player. I think he'll try Europe and if that doesn't work out, he'll catch on somewhere in MLS for $150K.

Yes and I stand completely by these criticisms and as I have stated several times before they are not solely based on a few incidents, I have a lot more hard evidence of this but I will not elaborate on that so you can take it or leave it.

"rarely are personality shortcomings the root cause of perceived declining abilities."

Are you serious? What world do you live in? Thousands of athletes have thrown away their careers due to personality and lifestyle deficiencies. Yes one can always find exceptions of players with poor attitude or a lifestyle not compatible with being a professional athlete who still played well but in the majority of cases their play suffers. I even personally know a former 1st Bundesliga player who ruined his career due to attitude and lifestyle issues and while he eventually turned his life around and got back to playing better and in a decent league he never quite got back to his former level nor made it back to the 1st Bundesliga. And if you ask him what were the reasons for this he would tell you straight out he was young, rich and famous and had a big head and bad lifestyle the consequences of which were finding himself transferring from the 1st Bundesliga to the 3rd division.

Yes there is some speculation involved when you see a player who often displays a less than optimal attitude (and Julian is not a bad guy but he is lackadaisical and carefree which is often a worse than an athlete with a difficult personality) and there are signs of a less than optimal lifestyle I don't think it is much of a leap to link them when he is also rapidly declining as a player and is not very old nor has an extensive history of injuries.

Now if one wants to talk about conjecture how about someone pointing to things like a torn meniscus that occurred well after his decline had started and is usually an injury that athletes fully recover from? And if he can't deal with unrealistic expectations he is in the wrong line of work. And I think the unrealistic expectations is a bull**** issue. I said right from when they signed him he was not a good DP choice, I did not expect miracles from him even if some TFC fans did. However, if I am generous I will call his performance that of an average MLS midfielder and it seems you agree given that you consider him worth $150 000. At the very least it would have been beyond reasonable to expect him to be a good, above average MLS midfielder, something like Carl Robinson was earlier for TFC. JDG was well below Robinson's level of play.

So do I know for sure his attitude and lifestyle issues played a big part in his decline as a player. No. But I would say there some pretty good evidence suggesting this.

[El Hombre]

Here we go again. Apologies to people who are getting tired of this. I'll try not to drag this out too much.

"rarely are personality shortcomings the root cause of perceived declining abilities."

Are you serious? What world do you live in? Thousands of athletes have thrown away their careers due to personality and lifestyle deficiencies.

I live in a world where the majority of professional athletes that you meet are less than model citizens. This comes with the territory of being very highly paid, staying at the nicest hotels, taking chartered flights everywhere and working 2 to 3 hours a day. You meet any professional athlete and you'll find a multitude of character flaws and yet once they hit the pitch/ice/court/field, they perform. This is why I think this ivory tower bull**** is so annoying when you single out one player and hold them to a certain standard while others get away scot-free. Outside of Johnathan Toews, most professional athletes do things on a regular basis very similar to the activities that you attribute De Guzman's supposed decline to. Yeah, there are guys like Balotelli and Joey Barton who are such horrible people that they end up throwing away incredible potential, but they are not the norm.

Now if one wants to talk about conjecture how about someone pointing to things like a torn meniscus that occurred well after his decline had started and is usually an injury that athletes fully recover from? And if he can't deal with unrealistic expectations he is in the wrong line of work. And I think the unrealistic expectations is a bull**** issue. I said right from when they signed him he was not a good DP choice, I did not expect miracles from him even if some TFC fans did. However, if I am generous I will call his performance that of an average MLS midfielder and it seems you agree given that you consider him worth $150 000. At the very least it would have been beyond reasonable to expect him to be a good, above average MLS midfielder, something like Carl Robinson was earlier for TFC. JDG was well below Robinson's level of play.

With regards to the torn meniscus, I was just offering one possible explanation for why he has lost a step recently. I think it's pretty well documented that he did require surgery.

As for the unrealistic expectations, I don't think you understand what I was getting at. They have little to no effect on him as far as I can see. What I meant with that is perhaps unrealistic expectations are colouring people's judgement when they look over his MLS career. It's incredibly difficult to judge the abilities and value of a defensive mid, when compared to a striker (goals for) or a keeper (goals against). Two people can watch the same game and come out with two completely different ratings for everyone (see: every post game thread on this forum). So, maybe those judging his MLS career expected more out of him than he was actually capable of. Is that his fault? Not really.

Also, you admitting that he was an average MLS midfielder is a major coup because that's far more than you've granted him in the past. That's where I put him too. Did he live up to my expectations? No. Was he a serviceable MLS player? Yeah, and I think he probably has another 2 or 3 years of that left in him.

So do I know for sure his attitude and lifestyle issues played a big part in his decline as a player. No.

Good. Stop bringing it up every time JdG is mentioned in a thread then.

[BearcatSA]

My Reader's Digest summary: JDG is a quality role player but was miscast as a DP here and either overly criticized or overly defended in the process. Happy to see him have a good run in Dallas to end his time in MLS. Hopefully will finish his career back in Europe.

[Unnamed Trialist]

The only thing that derailed Julian's career was getting an excessively high and undeserved offer from TFC, which took him off track. If not he would have found a contract in a top Euro division, no doubt about it. They simply priced him out of that, and he went for it, smart. He was never a leader on any team I saw in Europe (Hannover, Depor) and was a role player always. He was never particularly technical and offensively he stunk, watching his long shots sail over the bar was typical. He is a player that is meant to accompany someone with more talent in the middle and cover their back.

Mind you, given his athleticism, he should have done better in MLS, you would have thought it was a good fit. But I think that since he was considered one of Depor's better players one season, he in fact is not MLS material, he is the humble guts and committment a modest top flight needs to stay afloat and away from relegation. Ie, in Europe. I suspect that is where he will end up again, though a 2nd division in a top nation like Germany or England could also be possible I'd say (not Spain as the 2nd div now is full of weak teams with no money and good planning, too modest for his pocketbook).

BTW I think his reputation remains strong, he is well considered still. If his agent is not an idiot he'll find 2 years plus an option at half a million somewhere soon.

[Obinna]

http://www.bigdsoccer.com/2012/11/21/3674462/2012-fc-dallas-season-evaluations-julian-de-guzman

Interesting read on how the dallas fans rate him:

Julian de Guzman was acquired by FC Dallas on July 13 in exchange for Andrew Wiedeman in a deal that brought the Canadian international to Dallas while Toronto FC paid his entire salary. It turned out to be one of the major turning points of FCD's season, coupled with the returned health of David Ferreira, that gave the club some hope of making a playoff spot even into the next to last game of the season.

Pros

Fits in Dallas' System There can be no doubts that Julian de Guzman and FC Dallas are a perfect fit for each other. De Guzman said in an interview soon after joining that FCD was a team that liked to play football and reminded him of teams he'd played for in Europe that he worked very well with. So much of a player's success can be based on how well he fits into the team he's on and de Guzman fits here both on the field and in the locker room.

Honesty This is one for the media more than fans, but de Guzman is a guy who will actually answer the questions you ask honestly rather than give the regular canned answers that you hear so often. It's gotten him in a little bit of hot water every now and then, but when you tell the truth there's never anything anyone can criticize you for.

That goal No matter what happens with de Guzman between now and next season, we will always have that one moment of magic against Vancouver that set FC Dallas Stadium alive.

Moment of the Year

Do I even need to say it?

Cons

Stopgap It's tough to find a lot wrong with de Guzman and I guess this isn't even really a criticism of him but more of the timing. If de Guzman is not re-signed, he was simply a stopgap that prevented the development of a player like Bobby Warshaw in taking minutes away from youngsters while leaving FCD with a gaping hole in the roster heading into 2013.

Is he too expensive? There's no doubt that FC Dallas can be a great team with JDG as the defensive midfield anchor, but the question is, do you pay a player like him designated player money? I'm sure Dallas would love to have him back, but his price tag may be a little too much. We will find out soon.

Final Thoughts

Julian de Guzman's time in Dallas is about as positive as any player's that I can remember. He glowed about the team, the setup and the city while proving his worth in MLS in a system that fit his style rather than the disaster going on in Toronto. He called Dallas a breath of fresh air and an eye opener as to what the rest of the league can be like.

On the other hand, it will very likely take at least close to Designated Player money to keep him, money that could take away from much needed depth that Dallas needs to add. It's a major question that Fernando Clavijo and company will need to figure out in the off-season.

2013 Rating

1-10 scale...10 being MLS MVP...9 is MLS Best XI....8 is team MVP...7 is indispensable player...1 is Eric Quill.

You have to say that if you take away the money and just look at the performances, which is what you should do in a rating, that de Guzman has earned a 7.5. If he had been here for a couple years, you'd have to say he is an indispensable player and would probably fall just behind David Ferreira as the MVP of the team through the last three months of the season. Just a class, class player.

[madmonte]

While TFC did have to pay JDG's salary, the point still was to free up the DP spot and the room on the salary CAP for better players. Not that it worked out. I think simply put, Dallas was a better environment (style-wise) for a player like JDG.

Basically I agree with much of what you say, including the 7.5 rating. However, if I was going around giving out DP money, I wouldn't toss it at a 7.5 guy. He's either taking a major paycut or moving on, wouldn't you say? Like many in this thread, I think he's likely to try trolling his trade in Europe...but we'll see how much interest a 31 year old gets, especially considering much of his time in the last two years was marked with injury. We may forget that, but the player reports don't, and therefore the managers in Europe won't either.

[Macksam]

Didn't JDG turn Dallas' season around? I think $250,00 for him would be more than a fair deal for the club.