Guest GoGreen Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Had we made the hex, we would have been the only nation in it without a professional league. Teams in the hex: Costa Rica (12 teams) Honduras (10 teams) Jamaica (12 teams) Mexico (18 teams) Panama (10 teams) USA (19 teams, -3 Canadian teams = 16) Canada = No league. 3 teams. To me that is the difference. I don't see it just as down to coaching or development at young ages. As far as i'm concerned having Toronto, Vancouver & Montreal and to an extent Edmonton is not enough. We don't have the depth other countries have an part of the reason is we don't have a league of our own for them to play full-time. The CSA has flirted with the old 'CUSL' a few years ago and somewhere along the line it went astray, and revamping the CSL to me its not the answer. We need to revisit the concept of a 'Professional league' in my opinion. I know it won't be easy but in many of the posts recently, it has been stated that the CSA has a 30M dollar budget, I believe part of this budget needs to be allocated for creating and implementing a professional league. Look at what it did for the US. I propose at the minimum a 10 team national league with players being paid comparable to MLS rookies is that not do able. 10 teams x 20-25 player rosters = over 200 mostly Canadian players playing professionally against each other. By the way this is in addition to the existing Canadian professional franchises. Currently we have 141 Canadians abraod as of October 13 this year, 20 Canadian NASL players, 18+ MLS Academy reserve players and a number of players unattached at any given time. Additionally, we have PDL players and those graduating from the NCAA & CIS ranks that could benefit from a professional league as oppose to being swept away by local amateur leagues or quitting the game altogether if not for the very fact of just filling out rosters. If we had even 1/2 of these players playing in a professional environment it would do us a world of good. Also the opportunity for Canadian coaches to coach at a higher level helps our game. I know it's easier said than done, and obviously a certain amount of investors will be needed. But before any of this could happen I want to know if others agree that there is a necessity for a national pro league? Do the CSA feel there is? If they don't do we need a new CSA that agrees that there is a need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 You have it bang-on. Who cares how small and poverty stricken our opposition in CONCACAF is. What matters is they all have domestic leagues that are developing domestic talent for their respective countries. How many Canadians start on our three MLS franchises ? It's farcical ! Look at the talent produced by the CSL from 87-92: Jason Devos, Alex Bunbury, Thomaz Radzinski, Nick Dasovic, Paul Peschisolido, Fernando Aguire, Paul Fenwick, Pat Onstad, Ian Carter, Carlo Corazzin, Peter Sarantopolous, etc.... All of those players were given the opportunity to play as teenagers and many developed into first class players. NOT ONE would have an opportunity to play for our current MLS franchises in the same situation. Yet many developed into first class players and had great careers in Europe. MLS has raised the profile of the game, but can not compare to what a modest domestic league can accomplish in terms of player development. And that is what Canada needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUJO Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 People need to realize only around 10-15 leagues are of extremely high standard, most countries in the world have "uninspiring" league strength. So you can't expect a canadian league to be the next premier league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voetbal.dave Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 People need to realize only around 10-15 leagues are of extremely high standard, most countries in the world have "uninspiring" league strength. So you can't expect a canadian league to be the next premier league bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GoGreen Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 People need to realize only around 10-15 leagues are of extremely high standard, most countries in the world have "uninspiring" league strength. So you can't expect a canadian league to be the next premier league Not expecting an extremely high standard league, Canada just needs a fully professional league where players can come and play if opportunities elsewhere don't work out or are not worth it. Obviously those in the elite leagues shouldn't play in it. But we have a huge player pool that has no where to go because we don't have a league. Having a league of at least 10 teams means on average about 10 x 11 = 110 players playing regularly against other players of a professional caliber. If even 1 becomes a National team player it will help. Currently some of our MNT players play bit part roles overseas. We need regulars! That is what every other team qualifying regularly to the hexagonal phase of CONCACAF qualifying. Even the smaller countries like T&T, Jamaica and Nicaragua have leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GoGreen Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 You have it bang-on. Who cares how small and poverty stricken our opposition in CONCACAF is. What matters is they all have domestic leagues that are developing domestic talent for their respective countries. How many Canadians start on our three MLS franchises ? It's farcical ! Look at the talent produced by the CSL from 87-92: Jason Devos, Alex Bunbury, Thomaz Radzinski, Nick Dasovic, Paul Peschisolido, Fernando Aguire, Paul Fenwick, Pat Onstad, Ian Carter, Carlo Corazzin, Peter Sarantopolous, etc.... All of those players were given the opportunity to play as teenagers and many developed into first class players. NOT ONE would have an opportunity to play for our current MLS franchises in the same situation. Yet many developed into first class players and had great careers in Europe. MLS has raised the profile of the game, but can not compare to what a modest domestic league can accomplish in terms of player development. And that is what Canada needs. 100% agree. MLS + Canadian domestic league is what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Tell me what you know about Jamaica's national league. Would you consider it a professional league? Do you think it's a higher standard then the CSL? How many Jamaican players currently on the national team play in it? For the Canadian league: Who are your owners? What current stadiums are they going to play out of? How are they going to attract sustainable crowds? How will they deal with the massive travel distances vs what a small country deals with? It's all well and good to say the same things that have been said since the early 90's about a league. You can find thousands of posts and arguments about it on this very board and the old network 54 board. Unless you're in a position to personally do something about it (ie own a team or build a stadium) what's the point in talking about it any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 You guys might want to head over to the other thread about this very topic, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 We have 4 pro teams not 3. Edmonton counts. We are getting there but it is an excruciatingly slow process that has had a lot of failed attempts. All the countries you named have one thing in common. Very short travel distances. So how do we do that in Canada? A pro/semi-pro futsal league. Seriously think about it. 1) 12 players per team instead of 22 2) multiple teams in the major metro areas or areas of short travel (GTA, GVA, GMA/QC, Edm/Cal) 3) use university facilities (seats ~1000+) so no new facilities required 4) more games played in a shorter time Less expense due to less players, bus only travel and several teams in each metro area. At the end of the year each regions champions meet for a 4 on the floor type knockout tourney to determine national champ. So the only air travel would be for this tourny. The nature of futsal with the unlimited subs and shorter games lends itself to shorter turn around times between games. Soccer you need at least 3 and hopefully 4-7 days between games. Futsal teams play with one days rest. That and it is something that has not been tried before. The novelty of it might be of marketing use. Imagine a tour by the Barcelona futsal team with a stop in each area to play one or two of the top teams. Try and find a big name arena soccer club to tour and get attention from the fans and media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 You guys might want to head over to the other thread about this very topic, eh? Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 People need to realize only around 10-15 leagues are of extremely high standard, most countries in the world have "uninspiring" league strength. So you can't expect a canadian league to be the next premier league What it won't be like over home in the Premier league ah laddie canna you not see it will not work ...we wan't it like over home like it was 50 years ago. Seriously... build the stadiums, 5k, Soccer only with room to exand to 10k, fund the standard design by CSA, work with one group of suppliers and one construction company ( like Dennie's or any franchise operation does ). Get federal funding and local funding, and long term bonds to finance the construction, if you do not have stadia you do not have a league simple... get it in your heads a league only works with a place to play, the current reality is there are no stadia. Thats the barrier, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 What it won't be like over home in the Premier league ah laddie canna you not see it will not work ...we wan't it like over home like it was 50 years ago. Seriously... build the stadiums, 5k, Soccer only with room to exand to 10k, fund the standard design by CSA, work with one group of suppliers and one construction company ( like Dennie's or any franchise operation does ). Get federal funding and local funding, and long term bonds to finance the construction, if you do not have stadia you do not have a league simple... get it in your heads a league only works with a place to play, the current reality is there are no stadia. Thats the barrier, nothing else. And that's basically what the CSA's KPMG study said, no infrastructure is what is standing in our way. We do not need 30,000 seat stadiums. Build stadiums of 5000-10000 capacity that are quality. We do not want the EPL, because then Canadian talent will not be developed. Major (and I use the term loosely) League Soccer is an American league developing American players, attempting to make it's owners money. It is NOT the answer in terms of Canadian player development. It's time we stopped acting like parasites on the belly of American leagues and started a domestic league that serves domestic players and growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 How many Jamaican players currently on the national team play in it? That's...not the point at all. Its not how many play in it now, its how many developed in it. And for the record, 16 of the 23 players on the squad started their professional careers in the Jamaican league, most of them with Harbour View. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 What it won't be like over home in the Premier league ah laddie canna you not see it will not work ...we wan't it like over home like it was 50 years ago. Seriously... build the stadiums, 5k, Soccer only with room to exand to 10k, fund the standard design by CSA, work with one group of suppliers and one construction company ( like Dennie's or any franchise operation does ). Get federal funding and local funding, and long term bonds to finance the construction, if you do not have stadia you do not have a league simple... get it in your heads a league only works with a place to play, the current reality is there are no stadia. Thats the barrier, nothing else. you mean generally ****ty quality (PDL/USL) of domestic Canadian players isn't a problem? who'd watch this stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Stadia + ??? = Profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Stadia + ??? = Profit Are we talking about having a league or having a profit business, if its the latter you have to work really hard to make a profit, its not Tier 2 Junior A hockey with 18 year old unpaid slave players. Your player base will be in the age range of 18 to 25, with some older pro's eventually coming down the ladder of play, passing on knowledge and values to your young players. There should be the occasional 16 or 17 year old on the end of the bench, you need 25 players on a squad, and you need to let them have outside full time jobs. So the old pro comes back and sells cars, or trains kids etc. at 32 and plays three or four years passing on knowledge. The 18 year to 24 year trains and takes part time schooling at the local university or college. The CSA has to implement sell on player contracts for all clubs, even amateur ones so when the big club makes once in five year signing from a small club, cash flows back to the small club to fund its activity. This is one of the biggest economic flaws in the Canadian model the fact local club of non-pro players and youth gets no financial waterfall when a DeRo signs a European contract. Will all clubs in a league make money ..no, can the losses be sustained by an owner who loves the game or derives a benefit from the club yes it can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada1 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Owners are investors. If they don't see a profit they will not be interested. Watch Dragons Den. As Kevin O'leary and the other panel say. If it doesn't make money. I'm out. Good idea but we are just not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 you mean generally ****ty quality (PDL/USL) of domestic Canadian players isn't a problem? who'd watch this stuff? Are you making a serious comment ? Cause really your saying our players are so bad that any league will fail cause it wont be the Premier league like I see on TV, if thats your take hey okay... stay with the 54 inch 1080p vision of the game, but please dont think your a supporter of the game your simply someone who would watch Animal Planet if soccer was not on the telly. Again blunt question, what do you think it means to be " a supporter of the game" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 That's...not the point at all. Its not how many play in it now, its how many developed in it. And for the record, 16 of the 23 players on the squad started their professional careers in the Jamaican league, most of them with Harbour View. How many played NCAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Are we talking about having a league or having a profit business, if its the latter you have to work really hard to make a profit, its not Tier 2 Junior A hockey with 18 year old unpaid slave players. Your player base will be in the age range of 18 to 25, with some older pro's eventually coming down the ladder of play, passing on knowledge and values to your young players. There should be the occasional 16 or 17 year old on the end of the bench, you need 25 players on a squad, and you need to let them have outside full time jobs. So the old pro comes back and sells cars, or trains kids etc. at 32 and plays three or four years passing on knowledge. The 18 year to 24 year trains and takes part time schooling at the local university or college. The CSA has to implement sell on player contracts for all clubs, even amateur ones so when the big club makes once in five year signing from a small club, cash flows back to the small club to fund its activity. This is one of the biggest economic flaws in the Canadian model the fact local club of non-pro players and youth gets no financial waterfall when a DeRo signs a European contract. Will all clubs in a league make money ..no, can the losses be sustained by an owner who loves the game or derives a benefit from the club yes it can. it's not a good, or viable way to sustain a league when you rely on benefactors. see Gretna in SPL most Canadians won't see a D2 or D3 soccer. like most North Americans, only the best will do. and trying to compete with MLS for best D1 league isn't going to work because MLS has had so much headstart and pretty much all the positives needed to run a successful soccer league in north america. heck, Canadians won't watch CFL because it's second fiddle to NFL, and CFL has been around for years and it just can't change the mentality (hockey is like only sport that's an exception) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 We need regulars! That is what every other team qualifying regularly to the hexagonal phase of CONCACAF qualifying. Even the smaller countries like T&T, Jamaica and Nicaragua have leagues. it's helluva a lot cheaper to run a league in those countries than in Canada. just the cost of flying a team across the country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 What it won't be like over home in the Premier league ah laddie canna you not see it will not work ...we wan't it like over home like it was 50 years ago. Seriously... build the stadiums, 5k, Soccer only with room to exand to 10k, fund the standard design by CSA, work with one group of suppliers and one construction company ( like Dennie's or any franchise operation does ). Get federal funding and local funding, and long term bonds to finance the construction, if you do not have stadia you do not have a league simple... get it in your heads a league only works with a place to play, the current reality is there are no stadia. Thats the barrier, nothing else. And who is sitting around looking to dump 10 or 20 million into a stadium with the guarantee of losing lots of money? Federal and local funding for stadiums that wasn't set aside prior to the crash of '08? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Are you making a serious comment ? Cause really your saying our players are so bad that any league will fail cause it wont be the Premier league like I see on TV, if thats your take hey okay... stay with the 54 inch 1080p vision of the game, but please dont think your a supporter of the game your simply someone who would watch Animal Planet if soccer was not on the telly. Again blunt question, what do you think it means to be " a supporter of the game" ? It's not guys like me you need to worry about. It's selling the Canadian game to average joe. Heck, avg Euro snobs thumb their nose down at MLS. Imagine trying to sell something even crappier to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Stadia + ??? = Profit My post works better if you watch/watched South Park on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 you mean generally ****ty quality (PDL/USL) of domestic Canadian players isn't a problem? who'd watch this stuff? As MLS has shown it's more about presentation than quality, and quality is relative anyway. Put a competitive side (for your league) on the field in a professional atmosphere and you'll have fans in the stands. Otherwise why would the Swiss bother with their own league when they could just watch the Bundesliga? The professional atmosphere is what has been dogging us since the dawn of time. Without stadiums we can't make fans feel like it is something that is worth their time. As a fan of stadium architecture, the stadium in a box idea is bothersome to me, but at the same time beggars can't be choosers. We need stadiums period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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