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De Guzman slags Mariner - again


CasualSoccerFan

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And much worse this time.

From MLS website, DeGu is quoted as saying:

"I'll never forget the words of Paul Mariner saying he wants to make sure he'll send me to a last place team and let me burn in the heat... Right now, who's the last place team in the league and who's battling for the playoffs?"

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/16/de-guzman-takes-aim-tfc-mariner-after-winner-vs-caps

It nearly beggars belief to think that Mariner actually said these words. I'm sure the more likely thing is that DeGu is just bitter and has an axe to grind. And yet...given Mariner's blunt manner, his over-energetic, emotional behaviour on the sidelines, his raw comments post-Chicago...it's possible to think maybe, maybe, he actually intentionally did communicate this to DeGu.

And if he did - is this the man we want to steer us through next season??

Once again, more evidence that the cancerous relationships within TFC haven't disappeared from within the dressing room, let alone the Front Office.

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I posted that in the "Red Team Elimination Watch" thread but on second thought you are correct and it does deserve its own thread.

Say what you want about JDG's performance at TFC I think Mariner is just a jackass if that is what he said to a player on the way out the door. Just plain ignorant!

How's that resume coming along Paul?

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I can't really say much about Mariner as a coach. It was a bad decision to put him as interim coach so late in the year. Nevertheless, whether he is a good coach or not, anyone going to DeGuzman and saying, hey we paid you a lot of money to be a top MLS player and you are not even played as good as a decent starter despite the millions we are paying you is simply stating the truth not being negative. JDG has been a very poor player in the last couple of years and in my opinion was the weakest player on the pitch the last few games. The continual lack of acknowledging of his failure to live up to his contract is indicative of his lack of leadership qualities.

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And much worse this time.

From MLS website, DeGu is quoted as saying:

"I'll never forget the words of Paul Mariner saying he wants to make sure he'll send me to a last place team and let me burn in the heat... Right now, who's the last place team in the league and who's battling for the playoffs?"

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/16/de-guzman-takes-aim-tfc-mariner-after-winner-vs-caps

It nearly beggars belief to think that Mariner actually said these words. I'm sure the more likely thing is that DeGu is just bitter and has an axe to grind. And yet...given Mariner's blunt manner, his over-energetic, emotional behaviour on the sidelines, his raw comments post-Chicago...it's possible to think maybe, maybe, he actually intentionally did communicate this to DeGu.

And if he did - is this the man we want to steer us through next season??

Even if he didn't say it, he's still not the man I want to steer us through season. I have no faith in his coaching abilities, nor do I like the (lack of) a style of play he has brought to the team.

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This may be one reason why the players are not putting in an effort for TFC.

I think you're right and he seems to be the typical X-type manager that tend to have short stints in professional sports.

The yelling and motivation works in the short term, but over the long run players just tune the guy out and ask "is this is only trick?". He's a one trick pony, and everyone's tired of his trick.

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Yep, not surprised by this one bit. The poor selections in coaching from this team continues with #7. Leaving the vengeance comments aside, I have zero faith in Mariner leading this team anywhere near an MLS cup from what I've see from his coaching abilities. I say cup because playoffs are just extra glorified games that mean nothing unless you win it all. This club talks about playoffs all the time like its an achievement in a league where any pisshand team can do it (this means TFC is something much less than that).

Five things are wrong with this team:

1. Tactics: no ideas past passing the ball from D to F, almost completely bypassing the M (Mariner's doing)

2. Players: mentally weak, not up to par for this league, no MLS experienced core (Mostly Mariner's picks)

3. Scouting: problem since day 1 at identifying MLS competent players (Mariner's job for the past 2 years)

4. Coaching: wrong system used, players out of position, wrong changes during games, generally disgracefull behavior on the sideline (all Mariner)

5. Only upside of this team is the Academy (Henry/Morgan aside) which is also undermined by Mariner's change in direction, premature graduation to the first team, and waste of undeveloped talent left on the bench when the games are meaningless.

I do not know where this man is leading this team in the next year, but I'm really worried.

At the end of the day, I will always support because I love the city and the team, but my financial support has mostly shifted to the national team.

I would give them my financial support again, if they stop being so god damn incompetent at everything football related.

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I can't really say much about Mariner as a coach. It was a bad decision to put him as interim coach so late in the year. Nevertheless, whether he is a good coach or not, anyone going to DeGuzman and saying, hey we paid you a lot of money to be a top MLS player and you are not even played as good as a decent starter despite the millions we are paying you is simply stating the truth not being negative. JDG has been a very poor player in the last couple of years and in my opinion was the weakest player on the pitch the last few games. The continual lack of acknowledging of his failure to live up to his contract is indicative of his lack of leadership qualities.

I'm confused. How does Mo Johnston backing up a truckload of money to his front door suddenly endow JdG with skills that he never had? There was never any hope for him meeting expectations with the skillset he has and the amount of money that was thrown at him to convince him to move back from Europe.

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Wow, when you think it can't get any worst for TFC.

I don't know how MLSE is going to sell us Mariner and rest of TFC FO for next season. What JDG did was made MLSE job harder to sell Mariner and rest of TFC FO to us now.

JDG is well respected soccer player in Canada, and I am sure all (or at least most) Canadian soccer fans who support TFC are going to back JDG on this one over Mariner. Not good news for MLSE.

JDG did us a huge favour who want Mariner and rest of TFC FO fired in off-season.

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I can't really say much about Mariner as a coach. It was a bad decision to put him as interim coach so late in the year. Nevertheless, whether he is a good coach or not, anyone going to DeGuzman and saying, hey we paid you a lot of money to be a top MLS player and you are not even played as good as a decent starter despite the millions we are paying you is simply stating the truth not being negative. JDG has been a very poor player in the last couple of years and in my opinion was the weakest player on the pitch the last few games. The continual lack of acknowledging of his failure to live up to his contract is indicative of his lack of leadership qualities.

Really? You actually think "go rot in the heat" equates to a legit form of objective feedback?

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It is only natural that FC Dallas will attempt to retain JDG but it will without a doubt be at a lesser amount of money. I would not be surprised one ounce if he goes back to Europe within a year (not sure what his status is for January having already been traded within the last year).

I love his comments as they are blunt and really give fans something to talk about. We've been missing that type of stuff for years and I like players that break the barriers of proper PR and say what is on their minds.

FCD have done very well since the trade and after the big win against VAN on the weekend landing a playoff spot would be a near miracle after the debacle they had for the first half of the year.

As for my thoughts on Mariner I would very much preferred TFC brought over Steve Nico to take the coaching reigns while Paul managed the league stuff. They worked very well together in New England albeit becoming the Buffalo Bills of MLS with their 4 MLS Cup losses. Still Mariner's tactics are something I don't enjoy and though many seem to say they dislike him yet don't want to start from scratch, I ask why not? Wait to see who is available at the end of the MLS season and make a proper play for someone established and credible behind the bench

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Really? You actually think "go rot in the heat" equates to a legit form of objective feedback?

Don't mind Grizzly, his opinion of JDG has been skewed ever since Jules was allegedly clubbing after the Honduras 2008 WCQ loss.

To say he was one of the weakest players against Panama at home is laughable and shows a clear bias against JDG. I can't comment on the game in Panama City because I only watched the first half.

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I'm confused. How does Mo Johnston backing up a truckload of money to his front door suddenly endow JdG with skills that he never had? There was never any hope for him meeting expectations with the skillset he has and the amount of money that was thrown at him to convince him to move back from Europe.

Most sensible thing I've read on this thread so far, I've been saying this since JDG came to MLS. He's a CDM always has been always will be. Win the ball, turn quick and distribute. JDG can't be blamed for accepting all that cash.

Geez! MoJo still haunts the TFC Faithful. Sad, truly sad.

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Can somebody answer me how Toronto FC can keep Paul Mariner as Manager.

I would like one example of a Manager or Coach that has succeeded when most of the fan base doesn't approve of him. If MLSE keep this guy around it further proves that they have no clue of how to run a sports franchise.

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Can somebody answer me how Toronto FC can keep Paul Mariner as Manager.

I would like one example of a Manager or Coach that has succeeded when most of the fan base doesn't approve of him. If MLSE keep this guy around it further proves that they have no clue of how to run a sports franchise.

I often find soccer fans give themselves wayyyy too much credit for the performance of "their" team, but this is just going over the line.

Without talking about Mariner directly (being a neutral fan, I would like TFC to do well and don't believe he's anything near a solution. He should have been given the interim tag with the possibility of getting the full-time job if he had success at the end of the season imo), how many fan bases disaproved of a coach that had success?

How much fans like or dislike a coach doesn't measure his success. Winning does.

And to answer your question anyways, as demonstrated by Duane a little while back on CSN: Peter Vermes in KC.

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And to answer your question anyways, as demonstrated by Duane a little while back on CSN: Peter Vermes in KC.

Columbus supporters wanted Robert Warzycha fired as recently as the beginning of this season. Same goes for Frank Yallop in San Jose.

It happens quite often. Sometimes the fans get it right, sometimes they don't.

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I often find soccer fans give themselves wayyyy too much credit for the performance of "their" team, but this is just going over the line.

Without talking about Mariner directly (being a neutral fan, I would like TFC to do well and don't believe he's anything near a solution. He should have been given the interim tag with the possibility of getting the full-time job if he had success at the end of the season imo), how many fan bases disaproved of a coach that had success?

How much fans like or dislike a coach doesn't measure his success. Winning does.

And to answer your question anyways, as demonstrated by Duane a little while back on CSN: Peter Vermes in KC.

Mariner hasn't proven to be a winner.

Plus, Mariner has been with club 2 years now! He was responsible of bringing in players. Mariner has to be account for failure as well. Winter got fired while Mariner got promoted as a coach.

Given how TFC play (hoofball) under Mariner and lack of winning, TFC fans have every right to be mad and want Mariner and rest of TFC FO gone after the season.

I just don't understand why people on this forum don't see that POV from TFC fans.

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de Guzman has been clear in recent weeks about two things: generally TFC has treated him poorly from the beginning (who was the 'one' manager who didn't ask him to leave he alluded to?) and Mariner specifically was an *******. How much was Mariner running around causing **** for players last year and the beginning of this year? We don't know. But the number of decent players who have left TFC in 6 years only to go on to play at a decent competitive level suggests that there is a serious serious problem with team management. Players can be temperamental idiots too, but the number of 'under-performing' players TFC has had suggests that nothing is very rotten at the club - and it has never really been the players. ManCity could deal with Balotelli and Tevez and still win the championship then TFC should have been able to overcome their player problems, unless its not the players creating the problems. I know the talent and money comparison is not there, but if TFC was actually a professional soccer club deRo's antics and deGuzman's issues would never even have emerged and we might have seen Canada's a pair of Canada's best players in history put on great performances.

Thankfully I don't have to make a decision of paying for this **** because I can't make it to games... but I also cannot be convinced that TFC has ever had a clean restart since year one and the same problems with the same type of characters seem to be re-emerging year after year.

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Mariner hasn't proven to be a winner.

Plus, Mariner has been with club 2 years now! He was responsible of bringing in players. Mariner has to be account for failure as well. Winter got fired while Mariner got promoted as a coach.

Given how TFC play (hoofball) under Mariner and lack of winning, TFC fans have every right to be mad and want Mariner and rest of TFC FO gone after the season.

I just don't understand why people on this forum don't see that POV from TFC fans.

Oh, I more than understand, I even agree.

What I was simply stating is that a coach doesn't need the support of the fans to be succesful. It's the other way around. If he is succesful, he will have the support of the fans. That's the angle I was hitting on.

Like I said, I believe that Mariner should have been given the interim tag to finish the season. That gives the FO the time to do a proper search for a replacement (with their choice potentially being Mariner anyways). Instead, it looked planned, Mickey Mouse and the fact that Mariner has performed poorly in terms or roster management and tactics gives the (possibly accurate) impression that finding an adequate replacement was not as high on the list of priorities as getting rid of Winter. That the whole thing was more to appease the fanbase than to actually improve the team.

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What worries me most is that a fantastic Canadian franchise cannot get its crap together, and that before long TFC will find it onerous to fill the stands. What a loss for the city; what a loss for the development of football in this country. MLSE sucks eggs, we all know that. But how can they screw up so many things, and so often? There must be somebody in ownership with brains, wisdom and vision who can right the ship. If they do not have the right people in the right places, then find them, and fast. Starts with FO, then trickles down to coach and players and groundskeepers etc. Where's the vision!?

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....

number of decent players who have left TFC in 6 years only to go on to play at a decent competitive level suggests that there is a serious serious problem with team management.

....

but if TFC was actually a professional soccer club deRo's antics and deGuzman's issues would never even have emerged and we might have seen Canada's a pair of Canada's best players in history put on great performances.

....

Wanted to highlight a couple of your bulls-eyes.

I'd also like to mention that if TFC were an actual professional soccer club the whole "MeRo" cheque signing episode would have been dealt with diplomatically and to everyone's benefit (shrugged off and laughed off as THE ODVIOUS). But it wasn't and instead we find DDR off somewhere else making the best money of his life whilst TFC are paying coach after to coach to stay the Hell away from the team and the grandstands at BMO Field began to empty.

Don't want to say I told you so but I told you so. TFC had one chance to get this right. Knew that as soon as Trader Mo was brought in that this wasn't an organization that couldn't get it right, wouldn't get it right, and would kill off the goose that laid the golden egg in the process.

Just-like-that.

"Faint Hope Clause" though, unlike Leafs fans who herd to the box-office year in and year out one gets the distinct feeling that TFC fans aren't inclined to perpetually hand their cash over to the franchise owners come Hell or High Water. There's a limit to their patience. Could have something to do with the level of TFC fan education. These are people who watch a bit of footie and you know, find this team un-fu'king-watchable even by MLS standards? That sort of thing.

That's not meant as a shot against TFC fans, quite the opposite. When the emotionally attached fan says enough is enough, stops being "the enabler" and decides its time to hit management in the wallet that's when the powers that be begin to see the error of their ways and start giving things a think.

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The "vision" is completely wrong. TFC has tried from the beginning to be a "European" style club, unfortunately the FO hasn't realized that success in this league won't come from a foreign coach shipped over that has never heard of a salary cap. We need a team that can play MLS football not "total football" what a joke that was, I mean did anyone honestly think that would work? Only the geniuses at MLSE...

This isn't a European diss at all, I love all the off field stuff the club has done to bring a Euro type atmosphere but you can't mix that up with on field personnel.

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