Sasho Cirovski TFC coach in 2013 ?

[Gordon]

Inside sources within supporters.

Mariner has downgrade talent of this team since transfer window opened. I don't understand how you guys can't see that. Plus, TFC are playing worse than before.

Last game stat:

544 Total Pass 210

87% Passing Accuracy % 68%

71.1% Possession 28.9%

Only 29% possession? 68% passing accuracy? Only 210 passes?

Winning formula? This is just your typical TFC game stat ever since Mariner taking over (and it's getting worst).

Mariner is part of problem who should be held accountable because he was responsible of bringing in players in the past 2 years.

TFC needs to hire an experience manager since they haven't had an experience manager in their history outside of Perki (but he had ego issues which caused a lot of issues in locker room especially with Canadian players).

Yes, but how many kittens has he eaten?

[Mr.Impact]

I think that Mariner should buy at least one suit.

[Free kick]

Inside sources within supporters.

).

Oh yes. Of course the national inquirier as i suspected. That one is funny.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I understand wanting stability but what is it that Mariner has done with this team that makes you think he will succeed?

Anyone want to tackle this? Other than stability what does Mariner offer this team? He has been here two years and I am having hard time finding the positives. When the Winter was moved out, he should have gone as well.

Free Kick,

I am not a fan of Winter but you keep saying he went '0-10' and that isn't true. You also said Mariner has 5 wins so far, if you are going to look at wins in all competitions as you have for Mariner you should do the same for Winter. He had 18 wins in all competitions. I willing to bet Mariner will not reach that mark. I would LOVE it if he did, but he hasn't shown anything as tactician, in player selection or in player acquisition that makes think otherwise. And from the perspective of a fan of the national team, it drives me nuts that he will give endless chances Aaron Maund, Quincy Amirikwa and Andrew Weidemen and would rather have a shortened bench then dress Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya or Matt Stinson (he did at least make the bench for the last game but none of the 3 outfield subs were used). Especially when these guys are getting called up for national duty. What message does it send to academy players? You are good enough to represent your national team but not good enough to take up an empty seat on the bench of the worst team in MLS?

[jpg75]

For me I just don't think we can accurately gauge what kind of job he can do. The season has basically been a write off since Koevermans went down and when you lose your best player and only goal scorer then you're up ****s creek.

As far as Mariner bringing in most of these players, i'm not buying it. Koevs and Frings were Winter guys as were Aceval and Caicedo. Mariner drafted Luis Silva who has been impressive, as well as Reggie Lambe and Darren O'Dea who at least looks like he might bring some competence to the position. Jeremy Hall was another Mariner guy. Freddy Hall is a clusterf*ck, but then again whwen you have Kocic asking for 6 figures what the hell are you supposed to do on short notice.

Is Mariner a great coach? No. Is he good? I'm not sure. But do I want to sit through another off-season waiting for Anselmi to get acclimatized to being MLSE COO and then hiring a new TFC President sometime in January and a new coach coming in for February and scrambling to replace 7-8 players who they cast off at the last minute? Been there, done that. No thanks.

[narduch]

I would have prefered if Mariner was fired with Winter, as I feel he deserved some of the blame for the past 2 seasons. If not, what the hell was he doing?

For me the dream scenario would have been an entirely new management team being put in place when Winter was fired. That way this new team would have had the summer and winter transfer windows to get this team ready for 2013.

I was willing to give Mariner a shot, but I think I've seen enough of his on field coaching and this transfer window to worry about the future of this club. They will probably fire Mariner in June of next year, and yet another season will be lost.

[Free kick]

Anyone want to tackle this? Other than stability what does Mariner offer this team? He has been here two years and I am having hard time finding the positives. When the Winter was moved out, he should have gone as well.

Free Kick,

I am not a fan of Winter but you keep saying he went '0-10' and that isn't true. You also said Mariner has 5 wins so far, if you are going to look at wins in all competitions as you have for Mariner you should do the same for Winter. He had 18 wins in all competitions. I willing to bet Mariner will not reach that mark. I would LOVE it if he did, but he hasn't shown anything as tactician, in player selection or in player acquisition that makes think otherwise. And from the perspective of a fan of the national team, it drives me nuts that he will give endless chances Aaron Maund, Quincy Amirikwa and Andrew Weidemen and would rather have a shortened bench then dress Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya or Matt Stinson (he did at least make the bench for the last game but none of the 3 outfield subs were used). Especially when these guys are getting called up for national duty. What message does it send to academy players? You are good enough to represent your national team but not good enough to take up an empty seat on the bench of the worst team in MLS?

Stinson is injured. And besides, when Winter was around, he didnt play him much at all this year. Henry has a knee injury otherwise he was playing as much under Mariner as he was under Winter. Cordon and Makubuya have not played under either coach. I have heard conflicting reports about Makubuya's play and readiness anyways. And, at least under Mariner, he got on the pitch. So which Canadian, besides Deguzman, is getting shafted by mariner? Cann maybe? Is that why everyone is ticked off? well if it is Cann, then lets not overlook that fact that he is not rating Cann any differently than Stephen Hart has been rating him. Note, Hart has not called Cann for the past two years or even much longer.

I haven't seen much and I too dont get why he likes Maund. But crap, this guy is rookie. Havent we already thrown the towel in too early on far too many rookies over the years? I want this club to be patient with Canadians who come through the academy but I cant be a hypocrite and say that just because you are a non Canadian and a rookie, that there has to be a double standard when it comes to patience. Stinson (who is several years younger than Maund) got lots of chances last year.

As for Weedman and Amerikwa. Both were picked up for nothing. and as far as amerikwa, i have seen some promise there. theya re short term injury fixes.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Stinson is injured. And besides, when Winter was around, he didnt play him much at all this year. Henry has a knee injury otherwise he was playing as much under Mariner as he was under Winter. Cordon and Makubuya have not played under either coach.

Stinson is not injured he was on the bench and was on the touchline warming up throughout the game in KC. He did at least get some minutes under Winter when TFC had a full roster and there were multiple players to choose from in his position. Now that TFC is short players with very little competiton he can't get a game.

I know Henry is injured, that is why I didn't mention him.

And why not put Cordon or Makubuya on the bench? Cordon is good enough for the U20s but not TFC's bench? Makubuya had 10 minutes and almost scored and then can't even get back on the bench? Why not give these two a chance? You say Wiedemen and Amirikwa are short term injury fixes, are Cordon and Makubuya not part of the long term for Toronto? Why not give them experience to help them grow as players?

And as a Canadian supporting a Canadian team who is also a fan of our national team, I do want to see them give preference treatment to young Canadians or young Americans.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Also, I don't care what Winter did. Why must everything be compared to him? It isn't hard to a completely **** coach but still much better than Winter. Being just better than Winter isn't a benchmark this team should be striving for.

[CanadaSantos]

As for Weedman and Amerikwa. Both were picked up for nothing. and as far as amerikwa, i have seen some promise there. theya re short term injury fixes.

Wiedeman was part of the deguz trade. I know some people hated deguz but can u say that was a good trade? there's a reason Wiedeman only made a couple of appareances for dallas in 3 years (most of them in us open cup) then u have mariner saying this guy is the best finisher he's ever seen. TFC is made up of players that wouldn't even make the bench of most teams. Maund a rookie or not i see absolutely no potential. Jeremy hall is by far the worst defender i've ever seen (and that's saying a lot for tfc) Freddy Hall is another terrible signing. O'dea i still have some questions, he has by far the worst pass completion on the team, thats wat we need another defender who can't pass the ball. Even before O'dea Mariner prefered Emory over placing Henry in his natural position. Lambe is so so, but Soolsma and Plata >>> Lambe imo. Mariner has got rid of good players and brought in garbage. do u trust him with another trasfer window?

[TFC07]

FreeKick must be related to Mariner somehow. lol

Anyone who follows and watches TFC regliously can see and understand why many supporters want Mariner and rest of FO out.

In Canadian soccer fan POV, I don't understand why there will be people defending Mariner who exactly isn't pro Canadian.

[Free kick]

Wiedeman was part of the deguz trade. I know some people hated deguz but can u say that was a good trade? there's a reason Wiedeman only made a couple of appareances for dallas in 3 years (most of them in us open cup) then u have mariner saying this ?

That was a salary dump. I think that that is pretty clear

[Free kick]

defending Mariner who exactly isn't pro Canadian.

how do you know that?

These kind of witchhunts have to stop. This is one thing that has hurt this club for five years. Would you care to tell us on what basis you are Basing that? Did you get that from those same fans who have inside knowledge? Do we hear Impact fans or whitecap fans saying that this coach or that coach hates canadians. No, it seem to be only fans here. Thats part of the reason why we lose. If this TFC coach or that TFC coach hates canadians, then what re we to conclude of Martin Rennie and Jesse Marsch?

I am not interested and never was interested in supporting and paying to watch a team of foreigners. But if coach is going to be judged principly on the basis of the number of canadians he plays, then we are in real trouble. And so is TFC contribution to the national teams and thats because that instaed of coming through a competitive environment, they will have come through a coddled environment.

I want to see canadians playing especially the ones coming through the academy. But saying that this coach is better than that coach because this coach played one more canadian, is stupid. Ultimately coaches are reponsible for results.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I want to see canadians playing especially the ones coming through the academy. But saying that this coach is better than that coach because this coach played one more canadian, is stupid. Ultimately coaches are reponsible for results.

I am not saying one coach is better than an other based on the nationality of players that are used, I just want know why Mariner wont even give these young kids a chance? The CSA values them because they keep getting called but under Mariner he would rather have a short handed bench then dress them. I want to know why the CSA values them but Mariner doesn't.

Compared to Wiedemen and Amirikwa, Makubuya might crap. But until he gets a run out in competitive games we will never know. He certainly is not winning playing Maund, Wiedemen and Amirikwa so why not give the Canadians a chance? What is there to loose?

[CanadaSantos]

Compared to Wiedemen and Amirikwa, Makubuya might crap. But until he gets a run out in competitive games we will never know. He certainly is not winning playing Maund, Wiedemen and Amirikwa so why not give the Canadians a chance? What is there to loose?

the problem is that they weren't his signings. He slowly benched or sent away winters players so he can just start his guys.

[Free kick]

I am not saying one coach is better than an other based on the nationality of players that are used, I just want know why Mariner wont even give these young kids a chance? The CSA values them because they keep getting called but under Mariner he would rather have a short handed bench then dress them. I want to know why the CSA values them but Mariner doesn't.

?

As strange as this may sound. I am not disagreeing with you. I'd like to see these guys play as well. But we cant crucify a coach on the that basis. Very few eighteen and nineteen year olds are playing in MLS, i wonder how many players from the US U20 pool are getting minutes in MLS. Very few 18-20 yr olds are ready to be professionals in any sport. The impact and the whitecaps have quite a few of these kids as well. And they are getting less playing time and, in many cases, they are not even on senior roster never mind the bench. But its funny how none of their fans is calling those organizations anti Canadian.

If a coach feels that these guys are not ready, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Moreso given that There is more than one coach (i'll include assistent coaches) who felt the same.

And to reiterate, i dont know if Mariner is the best choice. But i am willing to give him a chance. Three months is not what i would call giving him a chance.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

The impact and the whitecaps have quite a few of these kids as well. And they are getting less playing time and, in many cases, they are not even on senior roster never mind the bench. But its funny how none of their fans is calling those organizations anti Canadian.

But these other teams are not dead last, have a full roster to choose from and they have a full complement of subs to use each game. Toronto is in last place, has a very small roster and is constantly loosing while giving young Americans starts while the young Canadians can't even get on the bench. It is not like these young Canadians would be taking a spot from anyone else on bench. If these young Canadians are going to be around for the long run, does it not help their development by traveling with the team to KC, watching from the bench and learning from the coaches by sitting next to them? Is it that TFC is just too cheap to bring enough players to fill the bench? Even at home, what is the disadvantage to having a full bench?

If Vancouver was in last place, only dressing 14 players and had 4 empty spots on the bench and still didn`t use Teibert, people on here would be loosing their minds. Earlier in the year when Vancouver had a full roster and were winning, they were constantly getting **** on here and at CSN for not playing Teibert.

[Michael Crampton]

what is it that Mariner has done with this team that makes you think he will succeed?

People like to remember the Canadian Championship run in May and pretend that Toronto FC had already turned the corner during that time. What they forget is that one game before the final a bitter, angry, frustrated, and massively disappointed Danny Koevermans declared the Toronto FC team he played for "the worst team in the world." A great performance at home against Vancouver and a flukey last second win (in a mostly boring game) against an utterly terrible and demoralized Philly team obscure just home bad TFC was in the league for most of the spring. There were a couple decent performances mixed in but it cannot be repeated enough: Toronto FC only held the lead for less than FIVE MINUTES aggregate during the agonizing 1-0-9 start to the league season.

And, for the people still hung up on the idea that the Canadian Championship represented a sea change, it's also worth noting that TFC's better May started AFTER Paul Mariner and Jim Brennan were moved down to field level from the FO to support Aron Winter (and Bob De Klerk was moved upstairs to do "something"). Allegedly, part of the more subtle tactical changes that Winter adopted that contributed to the better results in that tournament, after the dire performance in Montreal and home game to DC that lead to Ryan Johnson expressing public dissatisfaction with the team's tactics, happened after a "clearing the air" all players and management meeting. How much did Mariner contribute to that discussion and the newer direction? I don't know that we have any idea but it's worth remembering that what happened in May was not longer exclusively Aron Winter and Bob De Klerk's onfield leadership.

Point being: this was a bad team, deeply demoralized, and seemingly incapable of competing in MLS. Any assertion to the contrary is either not intellectually honest or ignorant of the facts of the team's first 10 games.

So, the group that Paul Mariner took charge of in early June were going to need serious attitude adjustment simply to get their head above water. Further, it should have been clear to anyone actually watching that a major tactical adjustment was also going to be necessary or the team would continue to struggle IN THE LEAGUE. Whether or not that constitutes a "tweak" or not has become some sort of bizzare stick used to beat Paul Mariner on TFC forums. What I suspect he meant was that he knew the team wasn't good enough to be "good" but that a tactical change and better man management could stop the worst of the bleeding before the LONG hard work of overhauling the roster could begin.

And, quite frankly, it worked incredibly.

Under Paul Mariner Toronto FC became, for a 10 game period, a reasonable mid-table MLS outfit. They won three games in a row for the first time in FOUR YEARS! They won an away league game by a record margin. Later, they won a Champions League game by a record margin (in literally the single most dominating performance by a TFC side ever). They had games they lead for long periods in tough away environments, won in a stadium where they never had before, and didn't fold up when they went behind at home (on two separate occasions). ANYONE with a reasonable fair and open mind should have immediately conceded that that stretch, while not wholly convincing, showed that Mariner had enough POTENTIAL to earn an off season. Really, the discussion should have been over.

Strangely, that level of success was simultaneously not enough for the true Mariner haters who'd decided they didn't like him before the team ever kicked a ball under his leadership - and many, MANY of those people dominate the discussion around him - but also seemed to again obscure just how bad the team had been! In some sense, Mariner was a victim of the very success he'd created. Some people seemed to forget that this had been such a bad team and either tried to argue that the change to Mariner hadn't been necessary or hadn't actually resulted in nearly immediate improvement. That's where the popular "he just had a hot Koevermans" argument tends to raise its head; as if a "hot Koevermans", a classic penalty box striker who relies on quality service to be effective, was somehow completely independent of the change in tactics initiated by Mariner. As if the guy who, after the DC away loss, said he'd had enough of pretty football and good efforts and wanted to "play ugly and win" like Chelsea, if that's what it took, hadn't had part of his attitude and commitment to the club enhanced by Mariner's more pragmatic and player tailored approach.

But then the inevitable happened: the wheels came of the bus and Mariner's team, still incredibly early in the process of overhaul, hit their first rocky stretch. The reasons are obvious: they were still a lower tier MLS team, lost their star forward to SEI, the miles - both travel and age - started to show on Frings and his form dipped, small injuries piled up that hurt the squad, and a really, really tough away heavy schedule all combined to create a six game league winless run. What's worth noting though is that TFC isn't getting destroyed in these games anymore. Often times they're taking leads and just not able to hold them. They're rarely more than goal out of it, even on the road, and have shown that they can hang around and sometimes nick a result (even if they've blown more than they've stolen). The games are more than often not very pretty but there's rarely one - NONE during the winless stretch - where the team, even at its thinnest due to injury and international absence, doesn't look competitive and at least hardER to play against.

So, you want reason #1 I think Mariner deserves a CHANCE to show if he can succeed? I say RESULTS. Even if they came against weaker teams - and for the most part they did - that's still the first step to becoming a good team. Mariner got results early on and it won't take much to get a decent little run again if the team can get healthy. This is still a bad team but they're closer to being mediocre than they were under Winter.

I'll get to reasons #2 and 3 - tactics and roster management - in a future post.

[narduch]

I wanted to give Mariner a chance, but I've seen enough. I don't think he has what it takes and is putting TFC further behind.

I hate that the pro-Mariner crowd tries to pigeon hole all of Mariner's detractors as pro-Winter people.

And for the record I'm no fan of Winter. I wanted him out since the middle of last season. I'm not one of those fans though that thought he deserved to carry on after this year's V's Cup wins and the win v. Philly.

To me, Mariner's time in charge has all the markings of all of TFC's other failed managers. And like I said, stability for the sake of stability is a massive mistake if you have the wrong person in charge.

Anyways, Mariner's not even one of the biggest issues facing TFC. News that Earl Cochrane is going to be the new head of TFC is shocking and embarrassing. I almost consider that a '**** you' from Anselmi to the fans.

[Michael Crampton]

Man, there's more spelling and grammar mistakes in the above than I care to fix. I hope the message is clear enough.

#2: Tactics

Put simply, people's response to the tactics employed by Paul Mariner in his time in charge of TFC basically serves as a litmus test as to how sophisticated they are when it comes to football tactics.

First, I'm no expert. I don't have coaching badges and haven't played the game at a very high level. Compared to someone with actual credentials like a Holger Osieck, or Paul James, or even a Jason De Vos I'm a complete neophyte. That said, I'm at least aware of my own ignorance! Football is a simple game but increasingly uses sophisticated tactical systems that are well beyond the perception of the average fan.

Too much of the discussion of Paul Mariner's tactics is dominated by people not aware of their own ignorance. Worse, they've got the dangerous type of ignorance, combined with a little knowledge, that makes them honestly believe that they're more expert than actual experts. Further to that, most of their tactical notions have been absorbed as an ideology from the fan and pundit discussion around the world's elite national teams and league dominating superclubs. Those are teams that tend to absolutely dominate in the vast majority of their games and the way that they typically dominate, comprehensive possession advantage with an emphasis on winning the ball back quickly and creative attacking play to unlock packed defenses, becomes assumed to be, intrinsically, what "good football" looks like.

These are the people who complain about Paul Mariner's "archaic", "route one", "hoofball" tactics. They look at TFC's possession and passing stats and see, in their mind, a team that has gotten worse by playing a simpler form of football. What they don't seem to understand is that they're starting from the wrong premise. There's no argument: well executed possession football, played by a team good enough to do it, is absolutely devastating and provides the most consistent way to win (and often entertain). But what do you do if you're team is NOT good enough to play possession football effectively? And keep in mind this isn't simply a question of skill in the absolute sense. Every single MLS player is technically solid enough to play beautiful, dominant, passing possession football against ANY local beer league or academy team. Sadly, those aren't the teams they have to play against. They have to play against EACH OTHER; tat's a far more tricky proposition!

Even the best teams in the world are forced to adopt more conservative, defensive, and counterattacking tactics when they are overmatched! I hate appeals to authority to a level of football so far beyond MLS that they're virtually irrelevant but look at Jose Mourinho. He's won the Champions League with three different clubs and is arguably the most successful coach of the last decade. No one questions his tactical credentials yet, when Inter was facing a Barca side they couldn't compete with for possession, they answered the same question facing Paul Mariner by famously "parking the bus" at the Camp Nou and rarely venturing over the half way line. It was so successful it was copied by Chelsea under Di Matteo on their way to last year's final. Would it work consistently? No, I'd still favour Barca in most of those match-ups and they've won enough to prove their way is superior but, when you're facing them, the point is to give yourself the best chance you can to win.

Worse for TFC, and ignored by far too many people, is that they spent nearly a year and half under Aron Winter PROVING that they weren't skilled enough to play possession football effectively in MLS!

So I'll make a statement: Paul Mariner's TFC is playing BETTER FOOTBALL than Aron Winter's TFC. It's better football because it's a better answer to the tactical problem he faces: an undertalented (and young) team, for a long time lacking in self confidence and a stable CB pairing, who generally step on the field each match second best to their opponents. Better football shouldn't simply be an aesthetic judgement; it's an evaluation of what gives your team the best chance to win when they step on the field. If the type of football that works for TFC right now isn't aesthetically satisfying enough for some people then that's too bad. This is sport, not entertainment, and the first priority of TFC should be to compete to win BEFORE they try to entertain. If staying compact, not over committing in attack, and playing early direct balls from the goalkeeper or CB to a target forward to try and win a second ball in the other team's half stops TFC from leaking what could have been a league record number of Goals Against under Winter then that's better football as far as I'm concerned.

(And, funnily enough, I've actually seen just as many MOMENTS of clever attacking football from Mariner's team as I did from Winter's. I completely reject the notion that Winter regularly played "prettier" football. Passing from GK to CB, to RB, back to GK, to LB only for the ball to be turned over the first time someone tries to pass to a DM or winger on the other side of half and the opposition initiating a counterattack into space as a result was not pretty to watch. Sorry.)

Some of the more charitable Mariner critics seem to be willing to concede this point, particularly when it was getting results, but then go on to suggest that it won't work long term or in some evolving future MLS. Ignoring the obvious contrary evidence provided by Arena's deep sitting counterattacking 4-4-2, Gary Smith's wing based kick and run 4-4-2, and Frank Yallop's high pressing 4-4-2 that have either scooped up all the recent major trophies in the league (or seem set to) is one thing. The bigger point that bugs me is that what works for TFC today is not necessarily how Mariner sees them playing in the medium to long term. The idea that Paul Mariner, an England international who won the UEFA Cup under Bobby Robson and was right there on the sidelines with Steve Nicol as New England made it to four MLS Cup Finals in something like seven years (losing two in extra time and one in a shootout), is a tactically naive ignoramus who doesn't understand, can't teach, or value possession football is, quite frankly, insulting and ignorant. Is his medium to long term vision as ambitious as the (marketing survey driven) one recommended by Jurgen Klinsmann and attempted to be implemented by Aron Winter? No, probably not. And I'm fine with that. I'd be more than happy with a team that can keep possession WHEN THEY'RE CAPABLE but don't need to to be successful. That's a sort of tactical balance that seems appropriate to a parity driven, budget restrained league like MLS. Even Sigi Schmid, generally considered one of the more progressive and possession oriented North American coaches, was forced to concede that "pretty football" was secondary to results during Seattle's early summer slump and adopted a more pragmatic approach until results stabilized.

Regardless, even if you feel pretty possession football is a reasonable demand to make of ANY MLS team I legitimately think Mariner's changes are more likely to make that possible in the future. Possession football requires more than just players technically capable of doing it; it requires confidence in your teammates and, because it requires patience and is often more "dangerous", confidence that the tactical system will be successful even when things are going wrong. That sort of confidence only comes from success. The TFC team at the start of 2012 was never going to be playing pretty football! They didn't believe in each other or the system. If Paul Mariner's tactics make the team successful in the short term to medium term I suggest that they'll actually make possession football more possible in the long term!

But the more important part of playing possession football is simply acquiring the critical mass of players capable of doing it and that brings us to #3: Roster Management.

[Michael Crampton]

I hate that the pro-Mariner crowd tries to pigeon hole all of Mariner's detractors as pro-Winter people.

And I hate that people think that you can talk about the team that Paul Mariner inherited without talking about Aron Winter. How he did in comparison is directly relevant to evaluating whether he deserves a chance to carry on with his overhaul. Until next season this is Paul Mariner finishing the season with Aron Winter's team. Compare Mariner to the rest of the league next summer; if he hasn't done enough by then, with two transfer windows and a full off season, he can be let go and complete management overhaul initiated to start preparing for 2014. But, right now, Aron Winter is the only reasonable comparison to Paul Mariner because they mostly coached the same group of players and Mariner provides, far and away, the best hope for an even moderately successful 2013.

Further, it's not that people are necessarily "pro-Winter". Very few can justify that position. The argument from some is that there's some hypothetical "better-Winter" out there that could be hired instead of sticking with Paul Mariner for now. I don't think that person exists. At all.

To me, Mariner's time in charge has all the markings of all of TFC's other failed managers.

And I think it's way, WAY to early to make that evaluation.

stability for the sake of stability is a massive mistake if you have the wrong person in charge.

Absolutely, and I argued the exact same thing after a year and a bit of Mo Johnston.

But snap judgements after 3 months? That's what lead to decisions that set TFC back and killed our reputation around the league like canning Preki. Canning Mariner would be viewed even worse. You'd be incredibly hard pressed to find a single serious league observer outside of the Toronto bubble who think ditching Mariner could even be contemplated at this point.

Apparently we have completely different notions of what a reasonable evaluation period is though. I only made up my mind that it was better to can Winter than stick with him after the Chicago game at home earlier this year. Up 'til then, even though I never believed in "the plan" or thought that Winter had anything like appropriate credentials, I advocated that he had to be given more time for at least the appearance of stability and a CHANCE at continuity.

Short of extraordinary circumstances a year minimum, with not unreasonable expectations, is what I'd like to see Mariner given. (And no, I don't buy into the "but he's almost had two years" nonsense. I'll get to it when I talk about roster management but from January 2011 to May 2012 TFC was Aron Winter's team, playing Aron Winter's football, with Aron Winter's players. The differences since then should make that obvious enough to anyone.)

[narduch]

I think we have seen enough of Mariner to evaluate what he is. I use the results, the transfer window and his in game decisions to come to my conclusion. Defending him and saying that he deserves more time ignores some glaring faults that he is already showing.

I would have preferred if Mariner was fired with Winter. And an entirely new management team was hired, including a President that oversees the team. Instead we have Mariner as head coach, and now Earl Cochrane as overall head of TFC and Anselmi head of MLSE. Personally I consider this a nightmare situation for TFC fans.

[Michael Crampton]

I think we have seen enough of Mariner to evaluate what he is.

We've had a start, where we can see what he could do with the remains of Aron Winter's team, and what his first priorities in overhauling it were.

I use the results,

Which, compared to the team he inherited, are better. Including generally better road results in the league than any previous manager of TFC (with the possible expection of Dasovic). He's not done well enough at home, and maybe that colours people's perceptions, but 4-6-6 (GD -5) is significantly better than 1-0-9 (-13!) with mostly the same group of players. Particularly when you consider that Mariner's team has played 9 away to 7 at home compared to Winter's 6 at home to 4 away. CCL performance, where Winter had the bulk of his success, is mostly a push at this point. Mariner did better against the only minnow he's faced and marginally, by the narrowest margin, worse against Santos. That's the only reasonable comparison; you can't compare him to the rest of the league because he hasn't had any chance to build his team yet.

They've hit their first extended bumpy stetch and he needs to get things turned around. That can't be argued. But it's simply not true to suggest that results haven't improved. Which, in the limited time frame available, is all you can ask for.

the transfer window

Where he added two bona fide MLS quality starters, a back up goalie, and a bunch of cheap depth to try out (which people don't seem to understand) at the expense of one inconsisent and grossly overpaid starter in the last months of his contract, a couple inconsistent fringe starter/regular subs who took up international spots, a totally failed bust of an international signing who was supposed to be a starter, a total depth guy who was basically on extended trial, and a 2014 draft pick.

It was good business, made us better for the rest of the year, fits with his vision, and should leave us better positioned for next season with options on what DPs we bring back.

The idea that Quincy Amarikwa and Andrew Wiedeman make the team worse because they're a downgrade from Soolsma and Plata completely ignores the roster restrictions you're forced to build a squad under in MLS and the trade offs inherent in the process. O'Dea and Hassli were the real business of the transfer window and if not having Soolsma and Plata contributed to TFC being capable of siging those two then the club is better off.

and his in game decisions

Which, for all the complaining about style and playing players out of position, have made TFC harder to play against (even if it's not pretty), capable of competing on the road, and positively changed the outcome of some games. No one can know what would have happened if he'd used his subs in KC, or brought on Avila in Columbus, or subbed Frings out against Santos. It's just as likely that any of those could have been a worse decision.

What I do know is that TFC won in the second half in Montreal after his tactical shuffle, was losing to Vancouver and came back to win, was losing Colorado and came back to win, was losing to Portland and came back to take the lead (before conceding and equalizer), was losing in Houston and came back and equalized, and pegged back goals in Columbus, after his subs, to make the end of that game interesting rather than an afterthought.

Defending him and saying that he deserves more time ignores some glaring faults that he is already showing.

You could just as easily have said the same thing about Bruce Arena after his first 16 games in charge in LA. In fact, there's a famous thread on BigSoccer where someone asked if he was the worst current coach in MLS around that time. It got bumped continuously, to humch guffawing, as LA went on from strength to strength once his rebuild of the Gullit debacle started to take hold about three quarters of a season after he was hired. My hope is that one day the Patch board thread where ~70% of respondents rate Mariner our worst coach since Mo will one day achieve the same level of infamy.

Is Mariner perfect? No, obviously not, no coach is. But unless you're comparing him to an imaginary thought construct of some perfect manager he's doing okay. Good enough to keep the job easily. If you're not one the people more concerned with his fashion sense and style of celebration, or part of the conspiracy theory crowd who think he was undermining Winter, there's not much to get worked up over.

I would have preferred if Mariner was fired with Winter.

And that didn't happen. So it's time to suck it up and wait and see what happens. You can't predict the future, neither can I, and neither can the Patch board hive mind who've already decided that "Mariner's ruined 2013 and there's no point in renewing."

Look, I thought Aron Winter had a terrifyingly thin resume and that the program he was tied to - to transform the way soccer is played on this continent and install a 4-3-3 based attacking style as part of the "culture" of TFC - was very likely doomed to failure. In fact, I thought it was undoubtably naive, arrogant, and borderline offensive to fans of the league. But it sold well in our city and that was the direction ownership decided to go.

So all I could do was wait. Once they made the decision they had to give it some chance to be carried out. Either it would succeed and I'd get to cheer an awesome, exciting, perennially successful TFC or it would fail and we'd be left starting over again. I didn't want it to fail but I wasn't surprised when it did. Fortunately, Aron Winter proved to be so personally ill suited to managing an MLS team that he failed fairly quickly, the project has been largely abandoned, and TFC have backdoored into the sort of coach I've wanted for a while: an "MLS guy" with a solid reputation around the league and a history of success - not as head coach admittedly; there's only a few of those guys around and none are available - inside a stable organization.

Paul Mariner meets my criteria for what I'd look for in an MLS coach in 2012. It's the same criteria that most club's around the league use which is why he was long considered the next most likely candidate for an open head coaching position. Either he'll work out or he won't. But I don't see any evidence yet that this is doomed to failure and am hopeful for 2013; apparently I'm in the minority. That seems insane to me but I've gotten used to it.

[narduch]

As I've said before, we need to stop comparing Mariner to Winter, and start comparing his results to the rest of the league.

4W 6D 7L would still make you one of the worst teams in the league. I don't care that its a better record than 1W 9L.

Besides, Mariner was put in place for RESULTS now. So we have every right to criticize what he is doing. I'm tired of patience. I want this team to hire a competent management staff. Not give Mariner a 3-year extension before he proves anything and install Cochrane as the team leader. Its a ****ing disgrace.

[Michael Crampton]

As I've said before, we need to stop comparing Mariner to Winter, and start comparing his results to the rest of the league.

HOW?!?!?!?!?!? How the hell are we supposed to judge his results against the rest of the league when he took over a 1-0-9 team and has only had three months, 16 league games, one summer transfer window, and no off season to overhaul the squad and turn them into his team? Teams capable of being 1-0-9 don't become playoff calibre teams overnight. To expect that is asinine.

The fact that Mariner, for a brief 10 game stretch, got TFC's group of no hopers up to playoff pace should see him celebrated. Instead, we get complaints that he doesn't have them playing pretty enough, celebrates too much, and dresses "unprofessional".

4W 6D 7L would still make you one of the worst teams in the league. I don't care that its a better record than 1W 9L.

Then you're being totally unrealistic about what is possible in such a short period and not taking into account the context of the situation he inherited. It's a big problem: even at 1-0-9 lots of TFC fans refused to come to terms with how bad the team was and how wrong our direction was. There's still a lot of people who think that all we needed was to stick with 4-3-3 and hire a better coach. There's a lot of other people, clearly you among them, who thought the whole thing was so radioactive that we needed to fire everyone associated with it. It's the big problem Mariner faces: there's multiple distinct groups who all find him an unsuitable choice for completely opposite reasons. He's been facing an uphill struggle and the one group who instinctively support him, fans of the league who know his reputation and value the opinion of MLS watchers outside Toronto, tend to be few in number (and many have moved into media). It's a situation so toxic that it sees him villified even though the team got better results in his first 10 games than anyone could have anticipated.

Welcome to Toronto, Paul.

Besides, Mariner was put in place for RESULTS now.

He was put in place to stop the bleeding and turn an otherwise horribly embarrassing season into a moderately, regular for TFC, embarrassing season. So far he's achieved that limited remit and it's hopefully given him the capital he needs inside the organization to carry on with the overhaul.

Dropping Winter, abandoning "the plan", and appointing an "MLS guy" from inside the organization was deeply embarrassing for MLSE. Paul Mariner is not what they sold their fans. He was not appointed to make the season ticket holders happy and there's nothing very sellable about him. They probably only did it because they listened to other people around the league who told them that they had a guy inside their own organization who most people thought could do a better job than any obvious, available candidate and Winter's record became indefensible.

I'm tired of patience. I want this team to hire a competent management staff. Not give Mariner a 3-year extension before he proves anything and install Cochrane as the team leader. Its a ****ing disgrace.

And that's just an expression of pure nihilism at this point. Mariner might be the competent management staff you're looking for. No one can know at this point.

I don't think you need to give some multi-year grand epic plan time to come to fruition. But giving a guy, who's improved results in his limited time in charge, one off season and then evaluating how he does next year? That's hardly unreasonable.

But I get that I'm not going to convince you. Honestly, I don't know what would. I'll just keep making the argument because the TFC fan board echo chamber has gotten so overheated in the desire to pitchfork Mariner that I'm scared this club will actually listen (again) and decide that keeping the punters happy, even if it means another dart throw before this one's had any time to find the target, is the safe way forward.