MLS teams in the U.S. are passing over Canadian players due to international status

[TFCfan4life]

Can't say I have not seen this coming since they announced the rules, but here is the proof now. Thanks MLS for taking the profit money from the Canadian teams while using it to prop US teams that should not even be in the league (Columbus) while acting like a barrier to Canadian player development.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/26/canadian-soccer-players-left-out-in-the-cold

Quote:

"“There are a couple of (U.S. MLS) coaches that have put out some feelers about potentially having some Canadian national team payers but they’re hesitant ... because the Canadians count as foreigners,” Canadian head coach Stephen Hart told the Sun.

“There are a few players they have liked and if they didn’t count as foreigners I have no doubt they’d be in the league.”

At the start of the 2012 season, clubs based in Canada (Toronto FC, Vancouver Whitecaps, Montreal Impact) were allotted eight roster spots for international players. Although the league stipulates that Canadian clubs must have a minimum of three rostered Canadians, the rest of their squads can be comprised of as many Americans or Canadians as they like.

The rules are different for U.S.-based MLS sides.

For the 16 American clubs, Canadians are considered international players, which means their inclusion takes away one of the eight allotted international slots a team is granted — a rule the CSA said has caused a handful of managers to pass over Canadian talent in order to avoid losing a coveted international spot.

“What concerns me is ... on the senior side you potentially have players that could be playing in a decent league and could be playing consistently,” Hart said. “But because of the foreign rule they end up playing in countries where the league is unstable.”

"

This is a "Do you know what grinds my gears?" moment

[nolando]

"The players the CSA identified to the Sun as being of interest to an assortment of MLS franchises aren’t exactly high-priced players — one of which played a significant role in Canada’s June qualifiers in Cuba and against Honduras."

Ricketts, Nakajima, Klukowski, perhaps?

[TFCfan4life]

^Those could be the guys, but Ledgerwood might also be one of them. I'm glad TFC gave Harden a shot.

Just for comparison sake, those guys are much better than harden who can fill a roster spot. That is the difference between a domestic and international roster spot in the MLS. A guy like this playing while Ricketts doesn't.

[Free kick]

there are two sides to that coin. On one sides, yes, the rules do end up being unfair (you could use the word discriminatory) to Canadians, absolutely. if an American can be treated as domestic player in Canada, then so should the Cnd on a US based club.

But on the flip side is: US laws are not going change and we did all this it to ourselves when the Cnd clubs were allowed to lower the minimum amount of required cnds on the roster to just three at the behest of the Whitecaps. And secondly, its tough to float out there the notion that Cnds are denied opportunity solely because they would have to take up and international spot (on US based club) when in fact there are great deal of Jamaicans, Hondurans and other players occupying those international spots in MLS from Concacaf nations. Let not forget that there is strict cap in the league and what you can afford to pay for an international is not necessarily huge. Most international slotted players are not thierry henry types. Bottom line, this situation should serve as motivation in WCQ for those three players to really show what they can do.

still, this situation needs to be fixed. the only people who can fix this one is the CSA.

[jonovision]

"The players the CSA identified to the Sun as being of interest to an assortment of MLS franchises aren’t exactly high-priced players — one of which played a significant role in Canada’s June qualifiers in Cuba and against Honduras."

Ricketts, Nakajima, Klukowski, perhaps?

Kluka didn't play a significant role in those matches.

[jpg75]

Not "exactly high-priced players" indicates to me guys like Ledgerwood as TFCfan4life pointed out, and maybe Ricketts who has been looking for a club also. Could also be guys like Peters, and without knowing more details about the situations could mean young guys like Nana and Gyorio (though he supposedly turned down a deal with SKC).

[smartlikefox]

Can someone explain why these US Immigration laws play a role here but don't in other sports? Obviously, there is a reason, but I can't find it.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Can someone explain why these US Immigration laws play a role here but don't in other sports? Obviously, there is a reason, but I can't find it.

None of the other sports have domestic roster restrictions. Without knowing the law in any detail, the gist is that if you restrict the number of foreign players you can't have an exemption for Canadians without getting permission from Congress. Garber has said that such an exemption is possible, but isn't warranted because there's currently not enough demand for Canadian players. When the 3 Canadian clubs routinely playing US journeymen over Canadians, it's hard to argue with him. Even with our clubs, there are still more Colombians than Canadians in MLS and they play a much more influential role.

[Jason]

Can someone explain why these US Immigration laws play a role here but don't in other sports? Obviously, there is a reason, but I can't find it.

I think the reason that this does not come up in other leagues in the U.S. besides MLS is because there is no quota in other leagues such as the NFL, NHL, MLB, or NBA. These sports do not protect any spots for American workers while MLS does. If you do protect some jobs specifically for American workers I think it makes it a bit more complicated.

Jason

[Macksam]

But on the flip side is: US laws are not going change and we did all this it to ourselves when the Cnd clubs were allowed to lower the minimum amount of required cnds on the roster to just three at the behest of the Whitecaps.

This is a misconception actually Free Kick. I've seen others like BBTB constantly mention it as well. The thing about US laws being a barrior is not true. Don Garber himself has stated before that they would review the rules when there comes a point when a high amount of Canadians are entering the league.

[Free kick]

Can someone explain why these US Immigration laws play a role here but don't in other sports? Obviously, there is a reason, but I can't find it.

Thats because there are no foreign quotas in other sports. All are treated as equal. But mls has rules or quotas that state that americans mustbe guaranteed certain spots. So if canadian were to be guaranteed the same spots or opportunities as americans it would be considered giving preferential treatment of foreigners of one country (Canada) over another country.

Edit.|. I just realised that YNWA responded to this question already.

[Free kick]

This is a misconception actually Free Kick. I've seen others like BBTB constantly mention it as well. The thing about US laws being a barrior is not true. Don Garber himself has stated before that they would review the rules when there comes a point when a high amount of Canadians are entering the league.

But its got nothing to do with MLS or Don Garber. The law states that on US soil you cant distinguish between (or give preferential treatment to) one group or foreign nationality over another as far as emplyment opportunity.

As far as reviewing the rules, its pretty obvious what their only options are. And that is to increase the quota for canadians on the CDN MLS clubs. Or what he can do is say that americans on Cdn clubs will count as foreigners but US clubs will nev go for anything that gives us more internationals spots because that would be deemed and advantage.

Getting back to actaul quota numbers for Cnds, Its the CSA that will have the final word on that one.

[ag futbol]

See the problem I have with the rules, as they stand currently is that we give Americans preferential treatment on our roster in return ... for what? I don't understand how that doesn't run afoul of Canadian labor laws. If they are in any way equivalent to American laws that would have to be the case.

Solution in the short-run could be to give Canadian teams extra $ to bring home domestic players.

[TFC07]

See the problem I have with the rules, as they stand currently is that we give Americans preferential treatment on our roster in return ... for what? I don't understand how that doesn't run afoul of Canadian labor laws. If they are in any way equivalent to American laws that would have to be the case.

Solution in the short-run could be to give Canadian teams extra $ to bring home domestic players.

That's what exactly I am thinking. Don't we have our own labour laws to protect Canadian jobs?

Hopefully CSA bumps up Canadian quotas in couple of years to force Canadian MLS teams to sign/develop more Canadian players.

[Gordon]

See the problem I have with the rules, as they stand currently is that we give Americans preferential treatment on our roster in return ... for what? I don't understand how that doesn't run afoul of Canadian labor laws. If they are in any way equivalent to American laws that would have to be the case.

Solution in the short-run could be to give Canadian teams extra $ to bring home domestic players.

No one has ever adequately explained why Canadians can/could count as domestices for USL (not sure about NASL). I think certain parties have a vested interest in making things appear far more difficult than they are in reality. Interestingly, you can never get a straight answer from any source as to how Canadian labour law is different since any other Canadian company simply can not hire americans as if they were canadian citizens (or landed immigrants). Curious isn't it?

[Free kick]

I don't understand how that doesn't run afoul of Canadian labor laws.

Good question. I was actually thinking about that as well. Why wouldn't we have a similar law in Canada? the only reason i can think of is that such a law might rub one region (ie.: Quebec) the wrong way; or moreso politicians in that region. Quebec has long shown policies (in immigration in particular) that favor certain types of nationalities (ie.: from french speaking countries) over others. This is done in the name of protecting language and culture.

Maybe such legislation (even if it is in regards to labour and economic opportunity) would run counter (or be perceived to run counter) to those interests and would be opposed for those reasons. I dont know, just guessing here.

[Free kick]

No one has ever adequately explained why Canadians can/could count as domestices for USL (not sure about NASL). I think certain parties have a vested interest in making things appear far more difficult than they are in reality. Interestingly, you can never get a straight answer from any source as to how Canadian labour law is different since any other Canadian company simply can not hire Americans as if they were canadian citizens (or landed immigrants). Curious isn't it?

I have never heard that there even were quotas for foreigners in the USL or NASL. I am almost certain that there aren't any. The only reason that you see (I believe) a large amount of local or domestic players in the NASL or USL is for economic considerations (ie.: they don't pay players enough for a club to be able to attract outsiders or to make it worth it for outsiders to move).

So it only makes sense for someone who is rooted in the community to play as close to home as possible. I know for a fact that some of the USL'ers who played for the Lynx had a profession/Career/ or other gig on the side. There were high school / phys ed teachers. some may have camps and clinics etc etc.

notice that there wasn't anywhere near the same amount of player movement in NASL/USL compared to MLS.

[A_Gagne]

Garber has said that such an exemption is possible, but isn't warranted because there's currently not enough demand for Canadian players...

Not enough demand for Canadian players is exactly the reason why there should be a Canadian quota. There is certainly not an American domestic quota because demand for American players is high, the quota is in place specifically to create demand for them.

If Gaber's MLS is going to operate (and make it's money) in both countries it should create opportunities for both Canadian and American players.

Bottom line is that the MLS needs the Canadian markets to make it's money, but they are sanctioned by the USSF, so the CSA lacks the same ability to twist their arm. I'm not sure how we would bring pressure to bare on the MLS to change it's roster rules to also favour Canadians, but I sure hope someone at the CSA does.

I wouldn't suspect that they will get any help from the Canadian clubs on this issue either. On one hand, even though they are counted as domestics, Canadians on Canadian MLS rosters, are not as valuable (in terms of trade value) as Americans because they can't as easily be traded to other teams, however, the Canadian MLS teams current are the only game in town for Canadian players, which gives them tremendous leverage over young Canadian players, as well as an unchallenged player recruitment within Canada.

The CSA however, does have a degree of leverage over the Canadian MLS clubs, therefore, if they can find a common ground with Canadian clubs and that would advance both of their interests, then I think they could collectively pressure the league into employing more Canadians.

I.e. some arrangement that preserved the Canadian clubs player recruitment advantage but yet also increased the trade value of the Canadians on their roster. E.g. Canadians could be counted as domestics after a minimum number of years in league (e.g. 3) - this would perserve the clubs recruiting advantage and actually increase their leverage over young Canadian players, yet at the same time increase the value of the Canadians on their rosters, and lead to an increased number of Canadians overall in the league.

[Gordon]

I have never heard that there even were quotas for foreigners in the USL or NASL. I am almost certain that there aren't any. The only reason that you see (I believe) a large amount of local or domestic players in the NASL or USL is for economic considerations (ie.: they don't pay players enough for a club to be able to attract outsiders or to make it worth it for outsiders to move).

So it only makes sense for someone who is rooted in the community to play as close to home as possible. I know for a fact that some of the USL'ers who played for the Lynx had a profession/Career/ or other gig on the side. There were high school / phys ed teachers. some may have camps and clinics etc etc.

notice that there wasn't anywhere near the same amount of player movement in NASL/USL compared to MLS.

I am pretty sure there is - based on threads 6 or 7 years ago when the USL made the switch to count both Canadians and Americans as domestic throughout the league - so I looked it up. USSF sanctioning for Division 2 requires limits on the number of non-domestic witht he USSF defining non-domestic. Obviously if USL could do it easily enough, then MLS should be as well. I suspect that the USSF is the prime obstacle and the rest is smokescreen. Check out item three in the Team Organization Section.

http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/2010/08/12/ussf-d-2-professional-league-standards/

[A_Gagne]

Oh, and while we're at it why don't we rant about by far the most bull**** aspect of MLS player rules. The whole idea of hanging onto a players "rights". I can understand that if you draft a player, or develop a player you should be able to hold onto his rights. On the other hand though it's absolutely ridiculous that the Impact can simply tell league office they're interested in Etienne Barbara, and all of a sudden he's treated as their property, or that Gyrio, a player that had nothing to do with MLS outside of a two week trial with SKC, is now effectively barred from any other MLS option for 2 yrs. And let's consider the double standard here. Was Toronto in talks with Alessandro Nesta... yes... did Montreal have to give anything up when they swooped in and stole him from under TFC's nose? Absolutely not! Why, cause the MLS is not about to tell a global soccer legend like Nesta, sorry, actually your rights are now held by TFC. But if you're a domestic (Canadian or American) player trying to break into the league, you've got two choices... seek out employment abroad, or grab your ankles. Rather than trying to negotiate another couple thousand here or there, I really think the MLS players association should take issue with the concept of clubs holding a players "rights" as is currently the case.

[madmonte]

Christ they only changed these rules for canadian quotas to allow american players to not count as international but domestic in canada what...two years ago? I can't see them changing it back, as much as we'd like it.

[RJB]

American league, with rules to benefit American Soccer. Why are we surprised by this???

[Admin]

American league, with rules to benefit American Soccer. Why are we surprised by this???

But as stated by Garber, the rules causing this situation are not the league.

There is a great deal of talent bubbling up through the academies at the younger ages.

The future is bright, but they need places to play. If the league can't fix this, they will lose out on a lot of players that could make the league better in the future.

[Gordon]

American league, with rules to benefit American Soccer. Why are we surprised by this???

Canadian locations, CSA sanctioning required, Canadian labour laws. Surprised that it is allowed and surprised that a board that almost uniformly makes up names for Canadian players who decide their best options lay elsewhere is so accepting, and in some cases, even condone the practoce.

[canucklefan]

Canadian locations, CSA sanctioning required, Canadian labour laws. Surprised that it is allowed and surprised that a board that almost uniformly makes up names for Canadian players who decide their best options lay elsewhere is so accepting, and in some cases, even condone the practoce.

That's what I wanted to post. What's disappointing it's the fact that the CSA allowed all this. We are "maîtres chez nous" and it's our own fault if we have clubs developing more Americans than Canadians.