Loan for Russell Tiebert?

[paul-collins]

The only measure of success that should count in this academy business is: Players cracking the first team lineup and minutes played in the first team. In the long run its count of professional players from this or that setup that will count.

This is a bit restrictive - I'd rewrite it as "Players cracking A first team lineup and minutes played in THAT first team."

It doesn't matter if Teibert plays for the VWFC, it just matters if he makes it onto a top flight team in a way that benefits both him and VWFC. That is how the academy is judged - either he helps the Whitecaps on the field or he brings in a fee for his transfer/trade, that recoups the investment made by the academy.

[Lord Bob]

The Whitecaps aren't in an exclusive club where that's concerned.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say they were.

[tmcmurph]

Clearly the VWFC would fail as a business if Teibert were sitting on the bench of the starting 18, right?

You missed the Colorado lineup? He was on the bench for that one. Working his way up slowly but surely. I also agree with you that the measure of success for an academy is how many players are playing on ANY first 11 in ANY top league.

One thing that seems to have been missed is that the Caps are one of the oldest teams in MLS. Get a bunch of vets to make things competitive right away so the fair weather fans keep coming out and build to replace the vets in 3-5 years with academy and draft picks. Sounds like a great plan to me.

[Danny Boy]

You missed the Colorado lineup? He was on the bench for that one. Working his way up slowly but surely. I also agree with you that the measure of success for an academy is how many players are playing on ANY first 11 in ANY top league.

One thing that seems to have been missed is that the Caps are one of the oldest teams in MLS. Get a bunch of vets to make things competitive right away so the fair weather fans keep coming out and build to replace the vets in 3-5 years with academy and draft picks. Sounds like a great plan to me.

This is exactly it. The Caps have a short window as a new MLS team to build stability before that fair-weather interest starts to wane. If it can build a championship caliber team within 3 years while slowly introducing the academy players it will bode well for the future. Id love to see a midfield of Koffie Alderson and Teibert in 2014 and all be under 24. We just have to be patient.

My only beef this year was the lack of cancon in the Amway series. Rennie chose not to play Teibert at all and that was a serious mistake with all the fixture congestion at that time. The Whitecaps are a better team than last year but still not as deep and by the time the Amway final rolled around the Caps were listless. Being one of the fittest on the team, Teibert would have been a huge boost of energy.

[afun]

^Agreed.

I'm a Vancouverite and also wanted to love the Caps, but the 'international' team they field every night doesn't really inspire me.

I did love to follow Tiebert last year. As a young Canadian soccer player coming up, playing for a Canadian professional team in a decent league, it was very exciting. I am very upset there are NO Canadians to follow on the Caps this year.

I'm the same except I do really like having international teams - but obviously Canada must be a significant part of that. Ditto with the Canucks - I like that we have Swedes, a Dane, Russian , Czech, what have you but if there are NO Canadians it makes it very hard to cheer for that team.

[tmcmurph]

Id love to see a midfield of Koffie Alderson and Teibert in 2014 and all be under 24.

My only beef this year was the lack of cancon in the Amway series. Rennie chose not to play Teibert at all and that was a serious mistake with all the fixture congestion at that time.

We all drool for that midfield lineup. Omar was moved from forward to wing-left type 2 way d-mid-fw early and I think Rennie wanted to give him some experience in full game situations. Omar rocked and the position was his until he got injured. Hopefully we'll see some of RT on the left over the next 3 road games. He brings a LeToux like work rate and energy to the position.

[zephyr]

Clearly the VWFC would fail as a business if Teibert were sitting on the bench of the starting 18, right?

No, but they would fail as a business if they made decisions based on nationality over performance. Keep in mind, I am working on the premise that the coaching staff that see the roster on a daily basis are the most qualified to determine roster "fits."

... and as others have mentioned, Teibert was recently on the bench. Wow, a young player developing, imagine that.

[zephyr]

*checks banner at the top of the forum* Yep, this is the board for National Soccer Team support. Imagine, finding people who value national player development over club success! Who saw that one coming?

Actually, it's the top of the domestic pyramid for the USMNT. That's where this all falls down. I'm glad the Whitecaps are helping support a league financially AND opportunity-wise in a way that helps the development of US soccer.

Yep, it is a national team forum ... but posters must understand the dynamics of club football if they are going to complain about it.

More talented roster = harder to crack lineup. Crappier roster = easier to crack lineup. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. If the teams had equivalent records and TFC was doing it with Canadian content, I back down and cry in the corner. Until then, it's silly to think losing with marginal Canadian content is better than winning with marginal Canadian content on the bench.

I don't support losing atmospheres.

[killgod]

Yep, it is a national team forum ... but posters must understand the dynamics of club football if they are going to complain about it.

More talented roster = harder to crack lineup. Crappier roster = easier to crack lineup. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. If the teams had equivalent records and TFC was doing it with Canadian content, I back down and cry in the corner. Until then, it's silly to think losing with marginal Canadian content is better than winning with marginal Canadian content on the bench.

I don't support losing atmospheres.

Canadian's won't become better pros unless they get minutes as pros. We're limited in our ability to get them on the pitch due to poor development over the years and lack of domestic sides. We're improving in both areas and should be putting them to that use.

Toronto FC loses for many more reasons than it's Canadian content (which isn't really a reason), that's just a cheap response from ****ecaps fans who can't get over losing to us repeatedly for the V's cup. We suck because we abandon every coach within a year and hire the next guy to do the complete opposite of the last. We suck because we have no true scouting outside of Earl Cockring playing FIFA 12. We suck because we have power struggles and meddling going on in our FO and nobody is supporting the man managing the club. We suck for many reasons but it's not our Canadian content. Henry, Morgan, Cann and De Guzman would get regular minutes, if not starting minutes, for many MLS sides. Looking at us as a whole club, we're completely dysfunctional and ****ed up, this isn't the fault of these select few players.

One minute we're just figuring ourselves out, the next we're a bunkering club, then we're a technical free flowing side, then we're playing route one football... We're ****ing chaos. Not their fault, nope, nadda, no way. Those guys are MLS players at worst, no doubt.

[Footscray]

Ya to echo what's been said a little already, everyone recognizes that the Caps have a decent team and that's why they're not giving young Canadians any PT... I just personally have no interest in cheering for a team with no Canadian connection on the pitch, no matter how great they are.

They could be an absolute MLS juggernaut - which they're not even close to being anyway - and I'd still have more interest in teams further away from me that actually play a Canadian or two. Obviously extreme bias coming from someone who supports Canada first and foremost before any club. Respect their approach and certainly am not wishing them any bad breaks.

[canucklefan]

I don't believe MLS should be seen as a business only. If it were the case, I think the US clubs would all be like the Whitecaps: almost every player is foreigner with one or two Americans. If MLS was just a simple business, how comes the US clubs have a quota of 16 American players (correct me if I'm wrong)?

hen MLS was created, they wanted to see and develop Americans in a pro environment. Not just business. I can't understand how people think it's impossible to do the same here with our three Canadians pro clubs.

[gator]

I don't believe MLS should be seen as a business only. If it were the case, I think the US clubs would all be like the Whitecaps: almost every player is foreigner with one or two Americans. If MLS was just a simple business, how comes the US clubs have a quota of 16 American players (correct me if I'm wrong)?

hen MLS was created, they wanted to see and develop Americans in a pro environment. Not just business. I can't understand how people think it's impossible to do the same here with our three Canadians pro clubs.

I completely agree with this! We should be using this opportunity to devlop Canadians into pros, and I think we are to a certain extent, I'd just like to see more of it! Our new CSA President has campaigned on pushing Canadian MLS clubs to raise their Canadian content quotas, that can only help in the long term!

[paul-collins]

No, but they would fail as a business if they made decisions based on nationality over performance. Keep in mind, I am working on the premise that the coaching staff that see the roster on a daily basis are the most qualified to determine roster "fits."

So why are you on a fan forum then? It's the fan prerogative (or even imperative) to question the coaching staff.

Or, maybe, you're on the staff?

[paul-collins]

More talented roster = harder to crack lineup. Crappier roster = easier to crack lineup. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

If you think people here don't understand this, you clearly haven't been reading. People expect RT to be getting some time precisely because they think (again, fan prerogative) that the judgement of the talent depth is skewed and not giving him his due.

Not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

I don't support losing atmospheres.

Yet here you are.

[madmonte]

Yet here you are.

hahaha if you are referring to the CMT, hopefully not for long!!! But funny regardless.

And yes, the point is that to us, Teibert IS good enough to crack the Caps lineup, we are fans of his, so expect us to support him and wish to see him get playing time. Is THAT difficult to understand also?

[zephyr]

I don't believe MLS should be seen as a business only. If it were the case, I think the US clubs would all be like the Whitecaps: almost every player is foreigner with one or two Americans. If MLS was just a simple business, how comes the US clubs have a quota of 16 American players (correct me if I'm wrong)?

hen MLS was created, they wanted to see and develop Americans in a pro environment. Not just business. I can't understand how people think it's impossible to do the same here with our three Canadians pro clubs.

Unfortunately, the Americans had a way bigger talent base to select from. If we were forced to play a certain number of Canadians at this early point, we would be seeing a bunch of NASL quality starting for our 3 squads. Not good.

It's the chicken or the egg thing. I want to see Canadians cracking MLS rosters everywhere ... but only if they earn it and are ready to do so.

[zephyr]

Canadian's won't become better pros unless they get minutes as pros. We're limited in our ability to get them on the pitch due to poor development over the years and lack of domestic sides. We're improving in both areas and should be putting them to that use.

Toronto FC loses for many more reasons than it's Canadian content ...

One minute we're just figuring ourselves out, the next we're a bunkering club, then we're a technical free flowing side, then we're playing route one football... We're ****ing chaos. Not their fault, nope, nadda, no way. Those guys are MLS players at worst, no doubt.

I was incorrect in classifying them as marginal talent (Cann still sucks). Morgan and Henry have bright futures. They are just more MLS ready in an environment with inferior competition. That's why they are getting minutes.

[zephyr]

So why are you on a fan forum then? It's the fan prerogative (or even imperative) to question the coaching staff.

Or, maybe, you're on the staff?

Good point. When the results indicate a need for change, THEN I start to question coaching decisions as a fan.

I understand that the club is far from dominating, and there is room for improvement, but nobody can argue that it has been a successful 2nd season in the league for them.

[zephyr]

hahaha if you are referring to the CMT, hopefully not for long!!! But funny regardless.

And yes, the point is that to us, Teibert IS good enough to crack the Caps lineup, we are fans of his, so expect us to support him and wish to see him get playing time. Is THAT difficult to understand also?

Coming from Medicine Hat, I can respect this opinion. From reading this board however, the overwhelming TFC bias would lead one to believe similar arguments and "****caps" bashing would take place if the player in question was Andrea ****ing Lombardo.

[smartlikefox]

Unfortunately, the Americans had a way bigger talent base to select from. If we were forced to play a certain number of Canadians at this early point, we would be seeing a bunch of NASL quality starting for our 3 squads. Not good.

It's the chicken or the egg thing. I want to see Canadians cracking MLS rosters everywhere ... but only if they earn it and are ready to do so.

This sums up how I feel as well.

I think a lot of people on this board can be short sighted when it comes to looking at the big picture. I know this is a Canadian fan board but success for a team in Canada just isn't about playing Canadians, it's about building the game in the long term. What's better for that? Playing token Canadians or winning games and having a successful team on the field? You can't say the Whitecaps potentially making the playoffs and possibly winning the MLS cup would be bad for soccer in Canada regardless of how many Canadians they run out there. It would be huge for the game locally.

Also, TFC's academy as it is, has a few years on the Whitecaps. Yes, the Whitecaps had a setup before the MLS but that was geared towards sending guys overseas (REB, Haber, etc). If, in a couple of years, the team isn't running guys like Morgan and Henry out there, then I'd be concerned. But, honestly, those 2 wouldn't even be starters for the Caps on the back end.

[Macksam]

I completely agree with this! We should be using this opportunity to devlop Canadians into pros, and I think we are to a certain extent, I'd just like to see more of it! Our new CSA President has campaigned on pushing Canadian MLS clubs to raise their Canadian content quotas, that can only help in the long term!

Why is he "campaigning" for it? I thought the CSA mandates the quota for the Canadian clubs. Anyhow, I would say starting 2014, the quota should be increased by one every year until 2027, when it will capped at 16 players. I think that would be a fair system. It will give the Canadian clubs time to develop the appropriate players.

[Soccerpro]

I'd love to see Russell and other young Canadians play more often and get signed more often, but what you propose would really hurt our MLS clubs and take it back to TFC'07, '08. A bit more time is needed.

[Macksam]

Alright, starting 2014, the quota should be increased by one every other year.

[gator]

I'd love to see Russell and other young Canadians play more often and get signed more often, but what you propose would really hurt our MLS clubs and take it back to TFC'07, '08. A bit more time is needed.

TFC 07/08 can't be much worse than now!

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'd love to see Russell and other young Canadians play more often and get signed more often, but what you propose would really hurt our MLS clubs and take it back to TFC'07, '08. A bit more time is needed.

Our quota is 3. I don't see 4 in 2013 hurting anyone next year. If our academies haven't produce a couple more MLS calibre players by 2014, to get to 5, we're doing something wrong. I would probably stop at 10, rather than 16, to tie to the off budget squad, but I'd be fine with 22. If I was a US club, I would demand 22. If the Whitecaps win the MLS Cup this year, one of the US clubs must clue in to the fact that we have a massive competitive advantage. Which is why I'm shocked that the Canadian clubs resist the quota so stongly. One way or the other, the current system is going to change.