Canada v. China, Wed July 30 Moncton 8pm ADT

[kj52]

Are they better than Parker?

I've seen the girls from Alberta play and they are all good players, possibly a couple eventually might have a chance to be on the National Roster if they continue developing but none of them could replace Kelly Parker at present for sure. I can't comment on the Manitoba or Ontario girls although I do know someone who would be familiar with the Burlington player. I'll ask him about her when I see him.

[empty_search]

From the nose bleed section. I have no pretension of being a soccer expert and know nothing of the politics of the sport (although I know enough to know that no organization, sports or otherwise, is devoid of it). Under that disclaimer, I make the following observations.

a) There may well be some Canadian female soccer players who are better than some on the present team. Whether there are or not - the time to find them is not now. Unless there are significant extenuating circumstances, there should be an obligation to "dance with the person who brought you". The team of individuals who earned their way to the Olympics should be the team that is going to get the opportunity to enjoy that experience.

Personally, I would be very hesitant to suggest on a public forum that there are better players available unless I was willing to in some way substantiate that assertion. In doing the first without following up with the second, I would assume that readers of the forum would be justified in questioning my credibility. (although I recognize that my credibility is open to question because of my limited knowledge of the game)

c) I did not enjoy watching the Canada-China game as much as I did watching the Under17 women lose 1 - 0 to the Americans. Personally, I think that the relative tenacity of the two Canadian teams was parallel but the younger team was more successful in playing an effective passing game - even if they couldn't score. That does not mean that I am ready to castigate the CWNT or its coach. According to Sinclair's comments at half time, the team's goal was to keep China off of the score sheet. According to one of Forest's comments during the game, he said that success against the Japanese might be dependent upon quick, 1 or 2 pass attacks. Although China did have a couple of reasonably good scoring opportunities, they were few and far between. Even though Timko did get behind the defence twice, in general the Canadian attack floundered as well. Does that mean that the approach should be abandoned? I am not sure. I suspect, however, that trying to play a straight possession game against the Japanese will not be particularly effective.

d) I would like to give some credit to the Chinese team for the frustration that Canadian fans, and I would guess Canadian players and the coaching staff, experienced through much of the game. They were at least as dogged as the Canadian players and did not leave them much room. Rarely were they not on the ball and they effectively cut out passing lanes. With the exception of the Americans, no one in 2012 has scored more than one goal against China. I wonder whether teams like Germany and Sweden came away a little frustrated after playing them as well.

[Vic]

Oh my God kj that's one of the most honest things anyone has written here possibly ever.

empty_search, greetings. Some thoughts...

a & Judging talent at the highest level is very subjective. There is no scientific proof of a better or worse player. That said two managers can however have a very different view of tactics and players and talent identification. Gretzky/Howe? Wambach/Hamm/Akers? Richard/Lemieux? I don't think any of those are better or worse mathematically or scientifically. At the top it's pretty much personal preference in what you're looking for when building a team.

If we beat the Americans to qualify the players who did it would definitely have a much better claim to deserving a free pass, but we beat Mexico as we've done about 95% of the time. Also, I don't think Own the Podium would agree to sending less than the best players/team. I think players who have been through qualifying have a credit, but if they're markedly off their game or not performing they shouldn't stand in the way of someone who can help us more.

c & d) Had we cashed in our chances that game would have been quite a different story. The difficult part for me watching wasn't the score though. Score is pretty random. Goals are often millimetres or bounces of the ball. Sometimes they're in your favour and sometimes you can't buy a break.

If we went out and played great ball movement and threatened all night and lost 5-6 we'd probably be down on our defence but thrilled with our attacking. The Chinese have definitely held down some of the best teams in the world on the scoreboard so performance-wise we're no different than anyone but the Americans lately. But I wish I was left with the feeling our turnovers and inability to create a lot of danger was the result of stellar Chinese defending... and not the decision-making and execution by some of our players.

At the international level in both men's and women's the large majority of goals are scored in less than two touches and two passes. I can't remember who it was but remember reading something from someone who had been involved in the game their entire life describing that as "the way it has been and will always be." Chaos theory.

[paul-collins]

Answering one tangent of Joe's thoughts - Steph Labbe has recently tweeted that she is gutted with the news that she is no longer part of the national team picture. FWIW.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Steph Labbe has recently tweeted that she is gutted with the news that she is no longer part of the national team picture. FWIW.

That's too bad because at one point she was pretty close to being number one. Erin was my number one but she had some injuries and a dip in form and Labbe was there to step in and did well. I've never been a fan of Karina (especially her positioning) but I have to admit like fine wine she has got better with age. She's my number one now and it looks like Erin has picked up her game as well. Hope Labbe sticks with it, she's still young. I was disappointed that Swiatek cut out so early. She had a lot of potential.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing what Parker brings to the table. I know at one time she was one of the few to play professionally in the USA but she has underwhelmed me with her games with the Nats. Same thing with Kyle in the last few outings I've seen.

Anybody notice the little Savardian Spinerama move Nault did in the China game (2x actually) Someone posted that they didn't think Herdman should be so happy on the sidelines, he was actually laughing at the move Nault made to get past a Chinese player.

[navycyr]

I'm still awaiting some definitive answer on why Josee Belanger hasn't been around. I'm confident Filigno will be part of the mix this summer.

Reliable sources say after being injured prior to world cup, Josée Bélanger has decided to retire from WNT. Sorry for the delay to answer but I'm quite busy and I don't look at the Forum often.

[Posessionsoccerrules]

So in other words...NONE! As usual the anti-CSA haters offer their millions of better players out there poop and ten never back up their claims with names. God this gets tiring.

Sorry Joe for not answering earlier as i was busy enjoying my weekend.

It is Herdmans job to identify players and the point is he has stayed with pretty much the status quo.

I do believe there are better players out there than the oldies we keep fielding with little or no upside.

You asked for names.......It is not rocket science.....just look at the rosters of any major NCAA division one team where there are Canadian players. That would be a good starting point........UTEP has been discussed although it is hardly what i would call a powerhouse. How about West Virginia, Ohio State, UNC, Notre Dame, Memphis and the list goes on.

When u r done scouring the NCAA look at the CIS for talent. They are also out there a la Desiree Scott's.

Herdman just needs to bring these players in for real and commit to developing them for the future in camps and international friendlies. Bringing an isolated player here and there for a token look at a mini camp and defaulting to same old is a waste of time and money.

Commit to the younger players and be prepared to suffer in the short term as China appears to be doing. In the end whether you are 10 in the wolrd or 20 doesnt really matter. Being top 3 does.....so how do you gether there? Certainly not with the status quo that have tried and failes for years. As a fan i would rather see light at the end of the tunnel rather than these old plow horses we keep defaulting to. Just my opinion.

[Posessionsoccerrules]

Posessionsoccerrules is a different story though. Seven posts all pushing an agenda of better US college player(s). I included the singular in that sentence because they're likely pushing one person whether that be friend, relative or whatever. And regarding their comments, a good question is how does the best find in Canadian soccer come from the University of Manitoba? Clearly there's more to player development than

meets the eye.

[Vic]

Anyone with 9/9 posts pushing NCAA players has a definite agenda.

Women peak as players in their mid to late 20s.

[Posessionsoccerrules]

Anyone with 9/9 posts pushing NCAA players has a definite agenda.

Women peak as players in their mid to late 20s.

My agenda is the same as many on this forum......frustrated at seeing our team continually drop in world ranking over the last decade.

In my opionion the two major factors for this slide historically speaking were style of play and player selection.

As for pushing the NCAA.........where else are we going to find players? Costco?

In an ideal world players do peak in their mid to late 20's. On the female side in a non soccer culture like Canada combined with all the distractions and opportunities of a modern society, financial and otherwise, it is unrealistic to expect a female to dedicate herself to football which means we have to incorporate younger players more than we have done to date. It is my opinion that some of teh older players on the roster need to make way for the younger ones to get the experience. In this regard Herdman has failed to put his stamp on the team.

Make that 10/10 !!!

Still doesnt change the fact that there may be something to this.

[Vic]

Continually drop? We're 7th. A decade ago we weren't even top 10.

You have a pretty high opinion of American school soccer.

Herdman's a bright guy. I wouldn't worry about him.

[Posessionsoccerrules]

Continually drop? We're 7th. A decade ago we weren't even top 10.

You have a pretty high opinion of American school soccer.

Herdman's a bright guy. I wouldn't worry about him.

I dont know the man and i hope he is more than bright. To this point i am not convinced that the program has taken a huge step forward. It is hard to tell if our style of play (from what i have seen) has improved significantly from the previous regime. The results of late certainly dont make me jump up and down with optimism (1-1 draw versus a Whitecaps team that has yet to win a W legaue game followed by a 1-0 game againts a young rebuilding Chinese team) . His casual and jovial demeanor on the sidelines is not my cup of tea but that is just me.

Time will tell.

[Joe MacCarthy]

His casual and jovial demeanor on the sidelines is not my cup of tea but that is just me. Time will tell.

Well there is some evidence that La Morace's post game histrionics are what helped them self destruct after what wasn't all that bad an opening against Germany in the WC. Suggesting that a positive attitude on the sidelines is a negative attribute is a bit much and I already posted about why the camera caught Herdman laughing. As for being happy, Klinsmann looked pretty happy every time he was on camera.

I agree that the NCAA is the primary training ground for our players but what's with all this craziness about calling the NT players old. Emily Zurrer is 24, that's old? Gee whiz, let me be old again.

This all still comes back to people making comments that there are better players than our NT out there, tacitly suggesting that Herdman et al are incompetent or corrupt. And yet again no individual names of these ignored superstars are forthcoming.

Hey, you're not that soccerrules that posts all that crazy poop at CBC etc are ya? You seem fairly reasonable here.

[Redcoatsforever]

Hey, you're not that soccerrules that posts all that crazy poop at CBC etc are ya? You seem fairly reasonable here.

soccerrules is actually Miro Kliment. That guy has quite a number of account running now.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Good ol' Miro, I couldn't remember who it was. I s'pose it's a good thing for this forum that Miro doesn't have a daughter (or does he?)

[Posessionsoccerrules]

Well there is some evidence that La Morace's post game histrionics are what helped them self destruct after what wasn't all that bad an opening against Germany in the WC. Suggesting that a positive attitude on the sidelines is a negative attribute is a bit much and I already posted about why the camera caught Herdman laughing. As for being happy, Klinsmann looked pretty happy every time he was on camera.

I agree that the NCAA is the primary training ground for our players but what's with all this craziness about calling the NT players old. Emily Zurrer is 24, that's old? Gee whiz, let me be old again.

This all still comes back to people making comments that there are better players than our NT out there, tacitly suggesting that Herdman et al are incompetent or corrupt. And yet again no individual names of these ignored superstars are forthcoming.

Hey, you're not that soccerrules that posts all that crazy poop at CBC etc are ya? You seem fairly reasonable here.

I never stated being positive is a negative attribute. I am all for being positive especially if your team in undermanned and you are looking to keep your team morale and confidence intact. But in the case of the China game when your team is clearly underperforming i am not sure that is the time to be positive. As for Herdman laughing at the Nault move as you have pointed out I did not see hime crying when one of his players got nutmegged on the sideline (btw that is tongue in cheek) while showing poor defensive posture (that would be over committing defensively with your feet square and apart).

Your Klinsmann example is laughable. For every Klinsmann out there i can point out way more successful coaches who take the opposite approach especially when their team is playing poorly.

The reference to old timers was not just age related but also the number of years that the players have been in the program which overall has been marginally successful relative to other soccer powers. Just saying there is room to bring in some fresh new faces.

I am not saying Herdman is corrupt or incompetent. What i am saying is that i have not seen enough change in personnel or playings style and the results to date have not been overly impressive.

As for 'soccerrules' or 'miro' i am willing to listen to anyone as long as it is within the guidelines of etiquette of this forum.

[The Ref]

^ well said and clear. I would like to add that I don't consider Herdman's laugh in this case as having a positive attitude or giving positive feedback, but rather I see it as being disrespectful, self serving and immature. Insofar as Klinsman I would not even bother with him.

[rkomar]

I think our biggest weakness has been mental. Going into shock, shutting down the brain, and trying to survive games rather than trying to win them. Angry shouting from the coach doesn't help at such times, it just makes things worse. My guess is that Herdman recognizes this, and his cheerfulness on the bench is aimed at trying to help the players keep from spiraling back into that same panic trap. If he can get them to be less fragile mentally, he will have gone a long way to making this team compete better on the big stage. He's got his work cut out for him, though, erasing the damage from the last World Cup.

[Vic]

The teams we failed to and the lead-up of their players to summer tournaments like the World Cup and Olympics:

1. France

Club: 22 games + Cups + Exhibition (~30)

Season: September 3 - June 2

+ National Games & tournaments + Mid-season camp + Pre-World Cup camp

2. Germany

Club: 22 games + Cups + Exhibition (~30)

Season: August 21 - May 28

+ National Games & tournaments + Mid-season camp + Pre-World Cup camp

Hard to compete with that kind of competition, professionalization and variety by playing a couple of games and participating in a couple of short mini-tournaments. To use Dorrance's phrase, not much of a competitive cauldron.

[ThruBall]

If statistics told the whole storey there would be no reason to watch a game. Los Angles is one game from winning a Stanley Cup with an eight place entry into the tournament. All the statistic pundits were commenting on the demise of NJ last night and had the cup presentation with family etc. rolling straight ahead before the puck was even dropped. Last night’s game was a spectacle of sport and a joy to watch!

It’s worth noting that LA’s success is built on the strength of a new coach who went out and added players before the trading deadline to improve his team. The result is a much improved team that has gelled and are setting records in this tournament; in sports anything is possible! The WNT had an incredible run up to the last WWC but ended up settling for dead last in every category including goals scored. If these players are of “world calibre” then they must be able to stand shoulder to shoulder physically, mentally, technically, and tactically with their world-wide peers. If they are not in Herdman’s view, why are they kept around? Enough of the excuses…… Results speak for themselves! If Herdman decides to go into battle with a roster, for the most part, the same as the one Morace chose, then he is saying that “HE” possesses the “X” factor this team is missing. We’ll see!

[Vic]

Another is he was hired to win the Cup in 2015 and is not about to risk blowing the team apart for the Olympics with a bunch of shock and drama caused by clear-cutting or slash and burning (on limited information).

There are two ways to look at it. One is he's a fool for not implementing massive change. Another is it's the intelligent move. It's pure opinion either way but I know which one I support.

That said, it will be interesting to see the subtle changes to system and starting 11. Those will be clues to what's down the road.

[Soccer9]

Another is he was hired to win the Cup in 2015 and is not about to risk blowing the team apart for the Olympics with a bunch of shock and drama caused by clear-cutting or slash and burning (on limited information).

There are two ways to look at it. One is he's a fool for not implementing massive change. Another is it's the intelligent move. It's pure opinion either way but I know which one I support.

That said, it will be interesting to see the subtle changes to system and starting 11. Those will be clues to what's down the road.

I think he is playing it kind of " safe" for the Olympics and will start a massive look at new players starting in the fall. Thats the word around...

[An Old Fullback]

Changing the subject a bit... I had the pleasure of attending the game in Moncton, and was very impressed with the women's team on what they did after the game. I know they did it in Vancouver as well, but for the east coast fans they came out, it was their first chance to meet the national team players, and the women were very accommadating. For at least a half hour, the players signed autographs with the fans that hung their jerseys, scarfs, programs, jackets etc over the stands, shook hands, shared the occassional photo etc. My daughter was with me, she didn't think she would get near the players, but ventured down to the front row and waited a bit, and the players went up and down the sidelines meeting the fans. Perhaps no big deal for many, but it was for the many that stayed around hoping to meet the players that they could only previously see on TV.

[Vic]

Thanks very much for sharing that. It's a win/win in both directions for the fans and players. It really helps everyone connect in a much richer and pardon the analogy but more beautiful way. It's also an example of the benefits of hosting a U20 and World Cup... a generation of young girls empowered by the experience. The trick now is to get all the marketing and community pieces into the boat to get the snowball really rolling.