On demanding Winters' head

[madmonte]

I posted this as a response to an article on canadiansoccernews, regarding why Aaron Winter hasn't been fired yet, and figured I'd share it just to be controversial.

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Go back to www.mlssoccer.com and read TFC's articles on Aaron Winter getting HIRED! Everyone was so excited, thinking it was about time we had a professional coach of his caliber that had done such great things on a world stage.

I remember commenting back then that Winter had never proven anything as a coach, yet, and it had yet to be determined whether his intuitiveness on the pitch would translate into front office intuitiveness.

Everyone was talking about Total Futbol coming to Canada, with extreme highs over the 4-3-3 formation.

I remember commenting that it's a decent system and can work with the right players, and I stand by that, and I can honestly say Winter hasn't done a bad job with training his players IN that formation.

But I also remember stating about what Winter would do with the cap, coming from European countries with completely different economic structures in their clubs compared to MLS.

On all my points, people basically burned me to the ground. I was called a pessimistic fatalist. Perhaps that's true, but I never once said he COULDN'T do it...I only said that it remained to be seen.

From what I see? It STILL remains to be seen. I see nothing wrong with his coaching style in terms of what he brings strategically. But I don't see what he brings motivationally, and I don't see clear front office intelligence here. 1/3 is a failing grade so far for Winter.

And to those of you who cheered like a child that just busted the pinata when we signed Winter...were you the same ones that cheered like morons when we signed Preki? And are you the ones currently saying that we should sign ********** as TFC coach because he did such amazing things on the world stage? Or do we constantly rotate complete sports newbies in and out as our bloggers and article writers?

Some things will never change.

[narduch]

I really do think the limbo of the MLSE sale to Rogers/Bell has a lot to do with Winter's survival so far.

The big question is when do Rogers/Bell take over? And what is Tom Anselmi's status when that happens? I'd imagine Anselmi will be out and Rogers/Bell will want their own hire in Anselmi's role.

Winter is lucky to have survived up to this point. I think he will continue to survive if the team starts to win and obtain points at a playoff pace. The playoffs are out of the question though, baring the most amazing run in MLS history.

[Keegan]

I remember being the same about Winter's hiring... he was/is preaching this total football thing as if it's easy to accomplish. Winter has been around big clubs his whole life so maybe he was ignorant but total football requires players that just can't fit into a team in a cap world... and when you consider depth for other competitions it gets even harder to put such a team together. I'm not sure if he has learned his lesson or not, the team definitely plays a different style than when he came in.

[Opie]

TFC should look at the NE Revs. Yes, the NE Revs. Not their terrible owner Robert Kraft. But their young coach Jay Heaps. In his first year Heaps has the Revs playing the technical passing style Winter has only been able to dream of. After years of seeing Steve Nicol's boring long ball tactics, it is a breathe of fresh air. And Heaps doesn't resources that Winter had access to.

Find a young coach that understands MLS.

[Ivan]

Find a young coach that understands MLS.

You mean like Jim Brennan? Jason Bent?

[JamesW]

If I remember things right, everyone was unsure of what Winter would bring and most people in Toronto and around MLS were very unsure if getting the right players to fit a 4-3-3 would be easy.

But maybe I'm remembering wrong and the OP was the only one who wasn't high on Winter coming.

More interesting to me, there used to be a lot of talk about the 4-3-3 only working when the academy kids, who are supposed to be playing it now, filter through. Anyone have any guesses on when we'll start to see that, if Winter survives? None of the Academy kids that were taken to Florida survived the cut this year, is next year when we start to see some of that? Or is that never going to happen?

[esham83]

i doubt the kids will be up for a few more years. saay 2-3 but i think get ready for TFC to be amongst the youngest teams in the league for

awhile if they keep bringing up their kids. henry 18 morgan 20 stintson 20 or 19 their back up keeper is 17 for godsake.

[Jcm144]

If the Canadian Championship didn't go right, I would have not been surprised if Winter had been fired. Now 2 wins in a row, lets see if Winter can turn this team around.

[narduch]

TFC's next two MLS matches are on the road, against KC and then Houston. I will be shocked if they win both of those matches.

Philladelphia are awful. But even they had a decent stretch in the 2nd half of yesterday's game where they looked like they had a chance to embarrass Toronto.

[madmonte]

Actually the point you make about academy kids is worrisome. Training them solely in the image of the coach that is current could be a very bad idea in a frugal environment like professional sports. Here, you all HAVE to learn 4-3-3! Until Winter is fired that is...then all that hard work is for nothing. Thanks though, formerly promising young canadian talent! Okay, that's a touch of an overreaction, but still...

[j.i.m.]

You can a difference in Winter's tactics since Brennan joined the 1st team staff. In the past most of substitutions have been defensive minded and seemed to backfire with late game mistakes costing the team points. Recently it seems the changes being made are to bolster the offensive game.

[Redcoatsforever]

You can a difference in Winter's tactics since Brennan joined the 1st team staff. In the past most of substitutions have been defensive minded and seemed to backfire with late game mistakes costing the team points. Recently it seems the changes being made are to bolster the offensive game.

It's working quite well though, isn't it?

[Cheeta]

Actually the point you make about academy kids is worrisome. Training them solely in the image of the coach that is current could be a very bad idea in a frugal environment like professional sports. Here, you all HAVE to learn 4-3-3! Until Winter is fired that is...then all that hard work is for nothing. Thanks though, formerly promising young canadian talent! Okay, that's a touch of an overreaction, but still...

Overreaction is right. Point raised, but yeah, wouldn't worry too much about the tactical structure the academy structure focuses on so long as the players within it are improving as football players.

No academy is ever going to be all things to all players all the time. I also don't think anyone growing up playing a fluid 4-3-3 will be ill served should they find themselves in a different fit later in life.

[esham83]

Actually the point you make about academy kids is worrisome. Training them solely in the image of the coach that is current could be a very bad idea in a frugal environment like professional sports. Here, you all HAVE to learn 4-3-3! Until Winter is fired that is...then all that hard work is for nothing. Thanks though, formerly promising young canadian talent! Okay, that's a touch of an overreaction, but still...

ya its is cuz they will still have all the skills and the abilty to play all they need to do is learn another formations and with high skill players u can do that

[ag futbol]

I think people buying too heavily into this formation thing are being sold a bill of goods.

For one, I see no guarantee that the academy will produce a mother-load of players capable of playing this way. The way MLS academies are structured, you're going to have massive difficulties yielding talent. I also have a bit of a hard time believing the current academy staff is the key to the future. Felt a lot more comfortable with Neely / Bent but still feel like a lot of the praise being earned is undeserved.

Second, I don't think saying "we're developing for the future" gives management a free pass in terms of current results. There are just certain ways that this management team has been inept that aren't going to go away even if this mythical group of "4-3-3 trained players" materializes down the road.

I think Winter and the rest of the management team are nothing more than dead men walking. They'll be picked out and boiled to death when the time is right (probably once Bogers does its housekeeping).

[narduch]

I think Winter and the rest of the management team are nothing more than dead men walking. They'll be picked out and boiled to death when the time is right (probably once Bogers does its housekeeping).

I agree on all points on your post above, but wanted to comment on this part. The win on Saturday doesn't really change anything in terms of Winter + co. They barely defeated the 2nd worst team in MLS. I didn't see anything in that match that leads me to believe that they have turned a corner in MLS play. They still have a very good chance of having one of the worst seasons in MLS history.

[madmonte]

Fair enough guys. Here's another point for conversation just to keep things moving along then.

Do you like or care that Winter is playing a lot of "Canadian Content"? It seems he does focus on getting those guys on the pitch. Either thinking it's a valuable marketing tool for the fans, or because playing canadians and academy graduates builds belief in the system for those guys currently in the residency system?

OR is it simply a matter of economics, where spending millions between JDG, Koevermans and Frings just made bringing having these prospects in your top 23 (referring to guys like Stinson, Cordon, etc rather than Henry this time) cheaper as you can pay them less just to fill those last few spots, while rarely if ever letting them crack even the bench?

OR when it comes to guys like Henry, is it just as simple as the best guy for the position (or for the future for the position) is playing? We haven't seen Miguel Acebal in a few matches, and Harden hasn't cracked...Henry has impressed. Are some of these Canadian players just flat out better?

Which view are you guys taking there? A little of all three, like I do?

But consider since we are roasting Winter. What system/personell changes would a new coach make that perhaps Canadian Content lovers might not like? Perhaps there are things Winter does that another coach wouldn't do, that would ruin the fact that right now, this is the true "canada's team", winning the Voyageurs Cup with actual Canadian content in the lineup as an MLS team?

[jpg75]

I love the fact Winter is playing Canadians and it's no surprise that since Cann and Henry have started to play together in the middle that we've shored up the defence (relatively). This is the main reason i want Winter to be successful and stay on, he has the right attitude about building from the bottom up and that'll mean a lot of Canadians getting an opportunity in MLS. I just hope he learns his lessons and can stay on the right track re: winning or else he will surely be gone, and the chances of the next guy giving Canadians as much of an opporuntity as Winter are slim to none.

[Havoc88]

I think Winter and the rest of the management team are nothing more than dead men walking. They'll be picked out and boiled to death when the time is right (probably once Bogers does its housekeeping).

Your entire post is spot on IMO. The last part - I feel the verdict is in on Winter at this point I think you'd really have to be wearing blinders to think he is the guy. An 0-9 start, after an entire season behind him is inexcusable and if winning is actually anywhere part of the culture people were sold on, it is clear he's not the one to get it done.

[ag futbol]

But consider since we are roasting Winter. What system/personell changes would a new coach make that perhaps Canadian Content lovers might not like? Perhaps there are things Winter does that another coach wouldn't do, that would ruin the fact that right now, this is the true "canada's team", winning the Voyageurs Cup with actual Canadian content in the lineup as an MLS team?

I don't disagree. It's hard to imagine too many scenarios where a replacement in management would end up being a good thing for the young kids. That being said, if it is a priority for TFC they'll find a way to make it work. I think one of the only good things going on at the club right now is the number of young domestic players we have on the roster.

Edit: let me put it this way, I think youth development at this club is going ok, but it could be better. And the stuff that's wrong with it isn't really down to Winter IMO. In the grand scheme of things, I think it will help us but alone it won't save the team from being terrible.

I agree on all points on your post above, but wanted to comment on this part. The win on Saturday doesn't really change anything in terms of Winter + co. They barely defeated the 2nd worst team in MLS. I didn't see anything in that match that leads me to believe that they have turned a corner in MLS play. They still have a very good chance of having one of the worst seasons in MLS history.

Yeah I agree. And while someone will rationalize that we had a few great chances that we managed to screw up and the score should have been 2-0 or 3-0, I can't help but think that's what bad teams do best: squander opportunity.