4-3-2-1 vs. 4-3-3/4-2-3-1

[Sam]

In the El Salvador match during the Olympic Qualifiers we played the exact same formation as the Men's National Team, but we seemed to slightly switch this up for the rest of the tournament switching to a 4-3-2-1 instead of the 4-2-3-1 used by the national team.

I think a lot of the decision just came down to personnel, because we didn't have a real attacking midfielder to fill the centre role of the attacking three (Saiko played here in the first match, but was benched in the second). However, I thought that playing with Piette, Bekker and Davies in the midfield during the USA match we looked much more solid. Playing the 4-3-2-1 meant no real wingers, but three players in the centre who all have the ability to make runs into the box, we saw this with Cavellini playing in one of the two withdrawn forward roles and managing to come up with the goal.

Playing with three central midfielders all of who are playing in a more withdrawn role gave Canada a much tighter defensive set-up than they had against El Salvador, while also opening up the wings for fast counter attacks from the fullbacks (playing with Teibert and Fresenga, who both like to go forward made this easier). When one of these three midfielders did win the ball the fullbacks were quickly making runs down the wing and the overlapping run was then being made by the free centre midfielder instead of the fullback. This worked very well with Cavellini's goal coming off a ball from Phillipe Davies after he came out to the right wing during a Canadian attack.

Having three ball wingers in the centre of midfield, all of whom are confident with the ball going forward was key to making this 4-3-2-1 work so much more effectively than the 4-2-3-1 did. Within the 4-2-3-1 this "reverse fullback, midfielder overlap" is impossible, but with the 4-3-2-1 it worked very effectively against the USA.

So obviously the next question is - should the national team move towards this 4-3-2-1 or "Christmas Tree" formation. I really think it could solve several of the national teams problems. Firstly it might help solve the Simeon Jackson problem. By playing two attackers behind the forward instead of wingers you could put Jackson and Simpson in here without having to worry about Jackson's inefficiencies on the wing while giving Simpson much more freedom. Also you might start to see better attacking play from the fullbacks with the potential of this "reverse fullback, midfielder overlap". One Canada's biggest problems against Armenia was static/non-existant play of the fullbacks going forward. Often when a midfielder or centre back won the ball the almost "lazy" out ball was just played to one of the wingers. The wingers then had no real option going forward and had to move backwards which stopped the counter attack and often led to losing possession. With the two supporting attacker tucked in closer to the centre forward our fullbacks will have more space to make the run forward, these fullbacks will have more options up field. Especially if we start to see runs from the midfielders overlapping the fullbacks like we saw from Davies on the second Canadian goal.

The key to playing this 4-3-2-1 so well was the impressive play of Piette, Davies and Bekker. If we want to see the same success of the 4-3-2-1 with the national team we would need to see the same solid defensive work and quick thinking to get the ball forward from Hutchinson, De Guzman (1&2?), Johnson, and whoever else plays in this position.

Either way I think that making this slight change more in responsibilities than real formation, could help give what has been a very static attack in recent matches a bit of a spark on the counter with the potential for a few more ideas.

[ThiKu]

Very tough call. Both have merits.

The one comment I'd have in selecting the 4321 over 4231 at the WCQ level is that the 4321 might benefit our side. Compact the defence. And we can't cross the ball in a meaningful way nor have strikers who are particularly adept at dealing with crosses anyway......the odd example here or there aside.

Can play a MF of JDG-Hutch-Johnson supporting Simpson, Jackson, Occean with Occean at the top of the pyramid. Simpson can then drift wide or play creative centrally as needed and Johnson can drift wide or overlap Occean as needed. Ricketts can fill in wherever, DeRo can fill into either of the "2" or even the "1" depending on opposition. Same with Hume. And heck.....what if we added JDG2 and Hoilett!....

This would also provide superior protection to our full backs who can be susceptible to breaks, as well as our CB's who would have more options to distribute the ball....would also allow our full backs to push further forward (De Jong/Morgan!)....(Kluk is probably not the #1 anymore, but I agree Morgan hasn't passed him. Morgan is just more offensively "bent" than Kluk).

[jonovision]

I'd don't think opening up the wings for the fullbacks to counterattack is terribly productive if we are fielding guys like Ledgerwood, Bourgault, Edgar, or Straith at RB.

[gator]

I'd don't think opening up the wings for the fullbacks to counterattack is terribly productive if we are fielding guys like Ledgerwood, Bourgault, Edgar, or Straith at RB.

I am still calling for Hutch to shore up the RB position especially if JDG2 is in the mix and if he continues to start there for PSV!

[Sam]

I'd don't think opening up the wings for the fullbacks to counterattack is terribly productive if we are fielding guys like Ledgerwood, Bourgault, Edgar, or Straith at RB.

What about Hainault? He likes to get forward with Houston.

[yomurphy1]

I am still calling for Hutch to shore up the RB position especially if JDG2 is in the mix and if he continues to start there for PSV!

Moving Hutchinson out of the midfield would be a bad idea, he is by far our best midfielder. Also, JDG2 is an attacking mid and is not too good defensively. Pushing him back down the field would limit him offensively and leave our midfield vulnerable.

[gator]

Moving Hutchinson out of the midfield would be a bad idea, he is by far our best midfielder. Also, JDG2 is an attacking mid and is not too good defensively. Pushing him back down the field would limit him offensively and leave our midfield vulnerable.

Am I the only person in Canada that thinks our defense improves greatly with Hutch at RB, arguably our weakest and most unstable position? Good teams build from the back up and to me this is a move which has to be at least considered by Hart! I know what he contributes in the midfield but I think that is an area where we have some depth! Johnson and JDG give us good defensive coverage in the midfield and if JDG2 is in the mix it makes the move easier! Quite frankly I am surprised that there is not more support for this idea! (Big Bird may be on board with this idea too IIRC)

[villus]

If JDG2 comes into the fold we should play a 4-2-3-1, without him the 4-3-2-1 makes sense just like it did for the u23's because we don't have a true attacking central midfielder. But as stated earlier we need attacking fullbacks to play a 4-3-2-1, the left side should'nt be a problem but the right side we are lacking with imo Hainault our current best RB who is'nt the offensive fullback type.

[yomurphy1]

^ Jaime Peters?

Has Hart given him any time at fullback?

[Gordon]

Am I the only person in Canada that thinks our defense improves greatly with Hutch at RB, arguably our weakest and most unstable position? Good teams build from the back up and to me this is a move which has to be at least considered by Hart! I know what he contributes in the midfield but I think that is an area where we have some depth! Johnson and JDG give us good defensive coverage in the midfield and if JDG2 is in the mix it makes the move easier! Quite frankly I am surprised that there is not more support for this idea! (Big Bird may be on board with this idea too IIRC)

I am in agreement too Gator. Hutch may be our best midfielder but we really need to shore up our RB.

[ChrisB]

Am I the only person in Canada that thinks our defense improves greatly with Hutch at RB, arguably our weakest and most unstable position? Good teams build from the back up and to me this is a move which has to be at least considered by Hart! I know what he contributes in the midfield but I think that is an area where we have some depth! Johnson and JDG give us good defensive coverage in the midfield and if JDG2 is in the mix it makes the move easier! Quite frankly I am surprised that there is not more support for this idea! (Big Bird may be on board with this idea too IIRC)

I am going to try and find the quotes from Jonathan Wilson recently (he was quoting some great soccer minds) about how fullbacks are the most important position on the field.

[villus]

Good skillfill fullbacks are so valuable in the right system. Morgan seems to be progressing nicely and both DeJong and Kluka have good skills to fill an attacking roll, Jaime Peters actually would be a very good fit in a t 4-3-2-1, not sure about his crossing and defending but he would be able to get at players very well with his pace. TBH, moving a guy like Johnson to RB in a system like this is might be another solution to revisit, also from a development standpoint its nice to see some of the more talented young wide players being moved to fullback. At an age group like u-20 or u-23 guys like Tiebert may be better offensively then others but going forward for the MNT good skillfull fullbacks can be huge for us, especially if we lack creative attacking central midfielders.

[loyola]

I've seen enough of DeGuzman this year. He's been mostly terrible and costing TFC goals in important games (not something you expect from your DP). This doesn't look well for our WCQ campaign.

[jpg75]

As i stated in the Canada-US Olympic Q's thread, kudos to Fonseca for making the formation switch and yes i believe we need to switch the MNT to a 4-3-2-1. Using wingers and an isolated target man has proven mostly fruitless and frustrating to watch lately. Get the 2 wingers pinched in and give the forward the proper support he needs and maybe get those attacking mids scoring goals too.

[maccaliam]

As i stated in the Canada-US Olympic Q's thread, kudos to Fonseca for making the formation switch and yes i believe we need to switch the MNT to a 4-3-2-1. Using wingers and an isolated target man has proven mostly fruitless and frustrating to watch lately. Get the 2 wingers pinched in and give the forward the proper support he needs and maybe get those attacking mids scoring goals too.

^ I agree. After being subjected to the lack of "ideas" Hart keeps preaching his players to come up with during MNT matches, a reshuffle is in order. Credit to Fonseca for being able to make that adjustment after the first match, where I wrongly questioned his tactical ability.

[villus]

We should have at least 2 formations in the bag to switch between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-2-1, but tbh the team we have right now the 4-3-2-1 seems llike the best bet, if JDG2 is in the fold then reverting back to a 4-2-3-1 seems best. If hoilett came aboard, I would think a 4-3-1-2 would play to our strengths pushing Jr. up alongside OO and giving him the freedom to attack and not count on him to track back, line up JDG2 ahead of a workmanlike midfield 3 to be the creative force, that would be the dream lineup and best utilize our best case scenario talent. In that case though we would have Simpson and Jackson on the bench most likely, but could push Dejong into the midfield 3 with Hutch and Johnson/Bernier/JDG. Either way I think we should have some tactical adjustments in the bag, as Fonseca showed springing that surprise on your opponents can really make a difference and its time our MNT started being a bit more clever and throwing different lineups out.

[Sam]

Just sort of a quick overview of what's being said here:

Positives:

Easier to use Simeon Jackson

Better support to centre forward

More defensive cover in front of the back four

Easier to get the fullbacks involved

Negatives:

No real right back to carry the load going forward

Potentially hold back some of Hutch's potential

[ThiKu]

I know ppl are trumpeting Hutch @ RB and yes he is good at it obviously. He'd be our best. But our CM would be far too weak without him and we saw that in the last WCQ rounds. No creativity.

What is wrong with Hainault, Edgar, or Straith at RB. Straith's league level is surely too low, but the other two...great stuff. Edgar may or may not be a better CB but Canada has....Hainault and Jakovic to play there as well (CB). So there are options.

I'd rather see Johnson moved to RB before Hutch.

[The Beaver]

If we had time to experiment with a few friendlies, then I think it would make perfect sense to try a new formation with Hutch at RB. The other part of the experiment would be the centre of midfield. We would need one destroyer and one creator of high quality, no? JDG should get a shot at DP, but who is our creator? Derosario? How about Simpson? If JDG2 is on board, the we have to see what he can do.

Curious to see who wins LB. Will Kluka turn his game around? Is Morgan ready to take a full step up? Do we play DeJong LM if Simpson slots into CM? We need a chance to try some new thinking out and get the guys used to a new formation. How many friendlies do we have before WCQ begins? One? Two?

[jpg75]

Yes, we need to have more than 1 formation. If we stick to only 4-3-2-1 then we'll be found out eventually. We can have the 4-2-3-1 and hopefully a 2 striker formation in there for when we need offence or are playing at home and expect to win (vs. Cuba and probably even Panama).

I'd go with:

------------------------Lars/Borjan------------------------

Hainault-------Edgar------------McKenna---Kluks/Dejong

----------Johnson--------Hutch----------JDG---------------

------------------Jackson---------Simpson----------------

--------------------------Occean---------------------------

That means DeRo, Ricketts and Hume as AM subs. Friend as backup FWD. Backup Dmids...whoever...maybe even stick De Jong as Left Dmid? Re-arrange the backline (CB's, RB) as you see fit...

I think it'd work well for the 3 road games and home vs. Honduras. Or if we want to be sneaky, stick with 4-2-3-1 at Cuba and then keep this formation in the pocket for the home game against Honduras and try to get them on the counter.

[Sam]

------------------------Lars/Borjan------------------------

Hainault-------Edgar------------McKenna---Kluks/Dejong

----------Johnson--------Hutch----------JDG---------------

------------------Jackson---------Simpson----------------

--------------------------Occean---------------------------

Put Jakovic in for Edgar and that would be my XI as well.

[ThiKu]

Edgar>Jakovic and is playing at a higher level. MLS is very good, but the Championship overall is superior to MLS from top team to bottom team as well as squad depth and competition w/in the squads. Yes yes yes, there are exceptions!

So the question is Hainault>Jakovic or Jakovic>Hainault? If Jakovic>Hainault then Edgar is the starting RB. Anyway, I don't honestly know who is better b/w Jako & Hainault.

TBH....I wonder if JDG's time in the CMNT first XI is passed and....I can't believe this....but I wonder if DeRo shouldn't start ahead of him? Yes, I Know it would require a shuffle as they obv don't play the same position/roles.

@TheBeaver - I've been advocating Simpson be pushed to CAM/#10 and De Jong played forward as a LM to provide service. BUT, I really like JPG's line-up too....could potentially consider Kluk at RB with DeJong/Morgan competing for LB in that shape.

[Keegan]

Put Jakovic in for Edgar and that would be my XI as well.

I used to be in that Jakovic is an automatic starter camp... but the last year has been a tough one for Dejan, even this year he's been struggling to stay healthy and start for a poor DC United team. Not sure we can justify starting him over Edgar who has pushed himself into the core of this team.

[Sam]

For me the problem with Edgar is the partnership with McKenna. As a centreback partnership McKenna and Jakovic offer much more together than Edgar and McKenna do. I worry with Edgar and McKenna we will be liable to giving up some of the same counter-attack goals that we did with Hastings and Serioux in the last WCQ campaign.

[DontPanic]

I'm definitely not an expert, but how do we not start the reigning MLS MVP and all time National Team Scoring Leader (almost)?

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