What exactly does "Second Division" mean in NA?

[strobe_z]

So here's a question...

Given that it looks like the MLS dream will be capped at 20 teams for the foreseeable future, what exactly does the NASL's status as "2nd Division" mean? There's no promotion/relegation, nor will there be in any for a long time if ever, so then what?

Obviously it's more than an uphill climb, but if the MLS says "That's it, 20 is all there is" does anything bar a strong, confident NASL from entering certain markets and establishing a presence that could rival MLS?

I know rival leagues are rare... either one collapses (like the WHA/NHL) or they merge (like NL and AL under MLB), but other than perception of lesser quality, I can't think of any reason the NASL couldn't get as big as MLS. The same question applies to 3rd division vs. 2nd division as well.

It just seems that NHL and Baseball have a structure of affiliated minor leagues whereas Soccer basically has a few disconnected leagues being pigeonholed. It just seems that without a mutually beneficial food chain structure in place they could conceivably become rivals.

[Mr.Impact]

So here's a question...

Given that it looks like the MLS dream will be capped at 20 teams for the foreseeable future, what exactly does the NASL's status as "2nd Division" mean? There's no promotion/relegation, nor will there be in any for a long time if ever, so then what?

Obviously it's more than an uphill climb, but if the MLS says "That's it, 20 is all there is" does anything bar a strong, confident NASL from entering certain markets and establishing a presence that could rival MLS?

I know rival leagues are rare... either one collapses (like the WHA/NHL) or they merge (like NL and AL under MLB), but other than perception of lesser quality, I can't think of any reason the NASL couldn't get as big as MLS. The same question applies to 3rd division vs. 2nd division as well.

It just seems that NHL and Baseball have a structure of affiliated minor leagues whereas Soccer basically has a few disconnected leagues being pigeonholed. It just seems that without a mutually beneficial food chain structure in place they could conceivably become rivals.

Well ... survival as a league would be a good place to start. Don't know if it's still the case, but last year several franchises were owned and/or operated by the same ownership group (Traffic Sports). This league needs committed ownership in each and every market.

Stadia is the next issue that has to be addressed. It is extremely difficult to sell your product, when you are not giving your team ideal conditions to perform. Playing in high school football stadiums just kills the experience, and leaves the fan with anything but the perception of professionalism. Buliding SS stadiums should be an objective for every franchise.

[A_Gagne]

WRT the technical nature of your question, the criteria for D1, D2, and D3 (etc) status is essentially defined by each national governing body (e.g. USSF and CSA). Technically, multiple D1 or D2 leagues could exist simultaneously (in fact both NASL and USL Pro (I think) have D2 status). Furthermore, divisional status is not synonymous with a leagues level on the pyramid. So you're right, there really aren't technically any barriers to NASL eventually become a peer competitor with MLS.

[ted]

...both NASL and USL Pro (I think) have D2 status).

No, USL Pro most assuredly does NOT have USSF sanction as a D2.

...there really aren't technically any barriers to NASL eventually become a peer competitor with MLS.

Well, other than the FIFA guidelines and the USSF rules which say one first division and no more.

The NFL was created when two leagues merged into one. If the NASL eventually was as big as MLS then they could merge, and as I mentioned in another thread, we might actually have a chance to create a pro/rel two "division" system in NA. So long as all the teams got a piece of the $$ pie arranging them into two tables would be financially sustainable and with continued cup competitions, teams from both "leagues" would still be able to meet competitively. A win-win for everyone as I see it.

[Alberto7]

So here's a question...

Given that it looks like the MLS dream will be capped at 20 teams for the foreseeable future, what exactly does the NASL's status as "2nd Division" mean? There's no promotion/relegation, nor will there be in any for a long time if ever, so then what?

Obviously it's more than an uphill climb, but if the MLS says "That's it, 20 is all there is" does anything bar a strong, confident NASL from entering certain markets and establishing a presence that could rival MLS?

I know rival leagues are rare... either one collapses (like the WHA/NHL) or they merge (like NL and AL under MLB), but other than perception of lesser quality, I can't think of any reason the NASL couldn't get as big as MLS. The same question applies to 3rd division vs. 2nd division as well.

It just seems that NHL and Baseball have a structure of affiliated minor leagues whereas Soccer basically has a few disconnected leagues being pigeonholed. It just seems that without a mutually beneficial food chain structure in place they could conceivably become rivals.

A lot of points there. Firstly, NASL will NEVER be as big as MLS. MLS has the best markets for North America. They did this by aggressively pursuing the markets they did not have and that includes ones where there were USL/NASL teams. Pick our organized top division pro league vs stay with a mickey mouse 2nd division semi-pro league. That strategy worked. They got Toronto, Seattle, Portland Vancouver and Montreal to join.

Where does NASL go from here? They continue to make good quality soccer available in smaller markets that have little chance of joining MLS. They don't need to be affiliated with MLS but I'm sure they will eventually have some kind of agreement like USL did at one point where they can take players on loan that need playing time.

Re Baseball: MLB has a structured minor league affiliation system but there are also several independent leagues that exist and flourish without being affiliated with the Big League. NASL can be like this as long as they don't attempt to position themselves as a competitor to MLS, a battle they will never win. If they stick to smaller communities and grow the game, they will survive. If they form some kind of affiliation with MLS, they will have a much better chance.

[tmcmurph]

I disagree about MLS limiting itself to 20 teams. Yea I know what Garber said but think "used car salesman" every time he speaks and you get a better view of reality.

First they now have 2 leagues with partial interlocking schedules. That they will keep. They will use the geography as justification to minimize travel costs etc to FIFA. There are no teams in the UK that are required to travel to Moscow every month nor are there any in Scandinavia that have to travel to Spain/Italy. It is reasonable.

With 2 leagues they can easily say "each league has less than 18 teams". So if they do it that way they have 16 more spots to sell at $40 million each. You do the math and tell me they aren't drooling at that prospect. No it won't happen overnight but that is my take on having 2 "conferences". They want to follow the NFL model.

[youllneverwalkalone]

1. MLS is not capped at 20. The unbalanced shedule is the first step in an inevitable trajectory to 24, 28, 32 teams. Don Garber doesn't care what FIFA think. But we're not seeing anymore Canadian clubs for some time.

2. The current heart of both the NASL & USL, the US Southeast, is going to be raped by MLS. Carolina and Florida will have at least 2 clubs in the next 10 years.

3. Unless MLS creats a division II minor league affiliate, the only advantage of a cross-border league -ie. travel- is completely lost. Already, FC Edmonton's closet rival is Minnesota. Probably the same for Ottawa. Finanical nightmare.

The writing is on the wall folks... It's time for a new Canadian league thread! (Seriously though, it is).

West: Victoria Highlanders, VWFC Reserves, FC Edmonton, WSA Winnipeg, FC Thunder Bay (2x home & away for 16)

East: Forest City London, Hamilton FC, TFC Reserves, Ottawa Fury, IMFC Reserves (1x home and away for 8, 24 total matches)

Non-reserve league winner goes to the Vs Cup. All the clubs are there ready to go with some degree of infrastructure. We need a little bit of sponsorship, a little bit of a cash injection from some of the more established ownership groups, some help from the media, some way to trick my wife to get me to reserve matches as well as MLS, and we're freaking ready to go. Div 1 baby!

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Firstly, NASL will NEVER be as big as MLS. MLS has the best markets for North America.

Do they? Or do that have the suburbs outside of the best markets in North America?

[lattes]

1. MLS is not capped at 20. The unbalanced shedule is the first step in an inevitable trajectory to 24, 28, 32 teams. Don Garber doesn't care what FIFA think. But we're not seeing anymore Canadian clubs for some time.

2. The current heart of both the NASL & USL, the US Southeast, is going to be raped by MLS. Carolina and Florida will have at least 2 clubs in the next 10 years.

3. Unless MLS creats a division II minor league affiliate, the only advantage of a cross-border league -ie. travel- is completely lost. Already, FC Edmonton's closet rival is Minnesota. Probably the same for Ottawa. Finanical nightmare.

The writing is on the wall folks... It's time for a new Canadian league thread! (Seriously though, it is).

West: Victoria Highlanders, VWFC Reserves, FC Edmonton, WSA Winnipeg, FC Thunder Bay (2x home & away for 16)

East: Forest City London, Hamilton FC, TFC Reserves, Ottawa Fury, IMFC Reserves (1x home and away for 8, 24 total matches)

Non-reserve league winner goes to the Vs Cup. All the clubs are there ready to go with some degree of infrastructure. We need a little bit of sponsorship, a little bit of a cash injection from some of the more established ownership groups, some help from the media, some way to trick my wife to get me to reserve matches as well as MLS, and we're freaking ready to go. Div 1 baby!

I kind of see it but could that just be kind of a 'sub league' or something? Kind of like D2 Canadian champions league?

Maybe that would be the way to start it.

What about growing CSL enough to merge it into NASL?

Think how long it took for other places to do stuff like this, we have been moving at light speed over the past 15-20 years by comparison.

[alberta white]

The Four Division 92 club system that exist in England did not exist until 1958. 70 years after the Football League was founded. Pro/Rel came into existance when the Second divison was added in 1982. Before then clubs were re-elected to theFootball League or sent back to their local League.

Personally I would not mid two divisions in time (10-15 years) which compete against each other for top honors at the end opf the season. Ergo winners of NASL Playoff, Play the Winners of the MLS Playoff. For say, the North American Cup.

If you think about it the Canadians are in their second year of doing something very similar.

Not going to happen though until both leagues are effectivley stron enough to compete against each other in Parity.

However If I was "King of the NASL" I would decree that a team raised in the NASLe must Stay in the town in which it is raised. It can be bought or sold by whomever is (seriously) 'fit and proper' to run i. But the club/ team in iself must stay where it is. It is a poor team that bombs then its de-selected and will have to find an appropriate level to play in. Thats not to say it cannot reivent itself and come back bigger and stronger.

It would give the League a USP in North American Sport.

[lattes]

The Four Division 92 club system that exist in England did not exist until 1958. 70 years after the Football League was founded. Pro/Rel came into existance when the Second divison was added in 1982. Before then clubs were re-elected to theFootball League or sent back to their local League.

Personally I would not mid two divisions in time (10-15 years) which compete against each other for top honors at the end opf the season. Ergo winners of NASL Playoff, Play the Winners of the MLS Playoff. For say, the North American Cup.

If you think about it the Canadians are in their second year of doing something very similar.

Not going to happen though until both leagues are effectivley stron enough to compete against each other in Parity.

However If I was "King of the NASL" I would decree that a team raised in the NASLe must Stay in the town in which it is raised. It can be bought or sold by whomever is (seriously) 'fit and proper' to run i. But the club/ team in iself must stay where it is. It is a poor team that bombs then its de-selected and will have to find an appropriate level to play in. Thats not to say it cannot reivent itself and come back bigger and stronger.

It would give the League a USP in North American Sport.

Well put sir!

To add my $.02, I think they would still have to figure out a salary cap structure similar to MLS because otherwise you would have too many teams that bomb.

[James]

I'm not so sure about your "small markets that have little chance of joining the MLS" comment.

I wouldn't call, Minnesota, Edmonton, Ottawa or San Antonio "small markets". Every one of those cities have thriving professional franchises in major sports leagues that dwarf the MLS.

And I wouldn't suggest for a moment that as an owner, player or even as a fan, that the MLS is the best of the two leagues. Certainly not from a Canadian perspective. I'm rather enjoying the NASL and I think that it's only likely to get stronger. Much stronger. If things keep moving along as they are, it'll be interesting to see where we are in 5 years. I'll suggest that while the MLS might be the stronger of the two leagues, the NASL will probably have a team or two every season that could compete with most any team in the MLS. Further, I'll predict that joining the MLS isn't going to be a priority for a successfully run NASL franchise.

I think that the NASl is a second tier league right now but not in the traditional sense. It's a separate league. An entirely different entity. And if it continues to pick up the slack, yet stay separate from the MLS and it's structure, it will succeed. In the long run, having a direct affiliation with the MLS would be a mistake. No farm team stuff. Bad idea. Loaning players for sure and perhaps financial agreements could be useful but no parenting.

A lot of points there. Firstly, NASL will NEVER be as big as MLS. MLS has the best markets for North America. They did this by aggressively pursuing the markets they did not have and that includes ones where there were USL/NASL teams. Pick our organized top division pro league vs stay with a mickey mouse 2nd division semi-pro league. That strategy worked. They got Toronto, Seattle, Portland Vancouver and Montreal to join.

Where does NASL go from here? They continue to make good quality soccer available in smaller markets that have little chance of joining MLS. They don't need to be affiliated with MLS but I'm sure they will eventually have some kind of agreement like USL did at one point where they can take players on loan that need playing time.

Re Baseball: MLB has a structured minor league affiliation system but there are also several independent leagues that exist and flourish without being affiliated with the Big League. NASL can be like this as long as they don't attempt to position themselves as a competitor to MLS, a battle they will never win. If they stick to smaller communities and grow the game, they will survive. If they form some kind of affiliation with MLS, they will have a much better chance.

[dmont]

Since the existing MLS teams will fight any plan that could see them relegated, I suggest a compromise. Once MLS has reached the 20 teams it seems to be set on, let the NASL owners purchase two franchises. Let two NASL teams fill those spots and compete against MLS teams all year. At the end of the year, relegate the worse of the two NASL-MLS teams, and promote the new NASL champion.

Existing MLS teams don't risk relegation, it'll make the NASL season more interesting and an NASL franchise more valuable, and some form of promotion/relegaton would appease the Dons in FIFA.

[lattes]

**** FIFA!

You are right about MLS fighting relegation though, $100m for a franchise that gets relegated after a year? I don't see anyone hopping on board with that.

[dmont]

**** FIFA!

You are right about MLS fighting relegation though, $100m for a franchise that gets relegated after a year? I don't see anyone hopping on board with that.

Agreed. Luckily, this idea makes sure that all the current MLS teams that paid a franchise fee face no danger of being relegated. Only the two NASL teams that occupy the two NASL-owned MLS franchises would face the risk of relegation. Those teams wouldn't have paid the franchise fees directly, and would only have ownership, right, and access to them in equal shares with the rest of the NASL franchises.

MLS teams keep their security and an intereting subplot to their season, NASL teams get more opportunity and value, and North America gets some form of promotion and relegation. One potential drawback to MLS: how embarassing would it be if one year, the two NASL teams played for the MLS championship?

[SteveBeau]

I'm not so sure about your "small markets that have little chance of joining the MLS" comment.

I wouldn't call, Minnesota, Edmonton, Ottawa or San Antonio "small markets". Every one of those cities have thriving professional franchises in major sports leagues that dwarf the MLS.

And I wouldn't suggest for a moment that as an owner, player or even as a fan, that the MLS is the best of the two leagues. Certainly not from a Canadian perspective. I'm rather enjoying the NASL and I think that it's only likely to get stronger. Much stronger. If things keep moving along as they are, it'll be interesting to see where we are in 5 years. I'll suggest that while the MLS might be the stronger of the two leagues, the NASL will probably have a team or two every season that could compete with most any team in the MLS. Further, I'll predict that joining the MLS isn't going to be a priority for a successfully run NASL franchise.

I think that the NASl is a second tier league right now but not in the traditional sense. It's a separate league. An entirely different entity. And if it continues to pick up the slack, yet stay separate from the MLS and it's structure, it will succeed. In the long run, having a direct affiliation with the MLS would be a mistake. No farm team stuff. Bad idea. Loaning players for sure and perhaps financial agreements could be useful but no parenting.

Keep telling yourself that, as a long time Impact supporter I can assure you that that might have been the case in the late 90's and early 2000's but the gap between MLS and 2nd division has been getting bigger and bigger every season especially with the 3 DP rule which has some teams with a salary budget range of between 3-15 million. Even the low end MLS teams have player budgets 3-4 times higher then the best NASL teams.

The Impact always had the highest salary budget of any team in D2 and still had a payroll of barely over a million dollars. After having followed the team in 2nd division for years I can honestly tell you the difference between the 2 leagues is like night and day, not even comparable. The play is faster, technical skills vastly superior not to mention there actually is a professional feel to the league light years away from the bush league I was used to.

I wish luck to any and all Canadian clubs in NASL but to somehow suggest that the leagues are comparable or will one day be on an equal footing is just being delusional, especially when NASL league officials have stated themselves numerous times that they have no intention on trying to "compete" with MLS and are content with running a 2nd division and would like to have a good working relationship with MLS.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Keep telling yourself that, as a long time Impact supporter I can assure you that that might have been the case in the late 90's and early 2000's but the gap between MLS and 2nd division has been getting bigger and bigger every season especially with the 3 DP rule which has some teams with a salary budget range of between 3-15 million. Even the low end MLS teams have player budgets 3-4 times higher then the best NASL teams.

The Impact always had the highest salary budget of any team in D2 and still had a payroll of barely over a million dollars. After having followed the team in 2nd division for years I can honestly tell you the difference between the 2 leagues is like night and day, not even comparable. The play is faster, technical skills vastly superior not to mention there actually is a professional feel to the league light years away from the bush league I was used to.

I wish luck to any and all Canadian clubs in NASL but to somehow suggest that the leagues are comparable or will one day be on an equal footing is just being delusional, especially when NASL league officials have stated themselves numerous times that they have no intention on trying to "compete" with MLS and are content with running a 2nd division and would like to have a good working relationship with MLS.

The English Championship is a lot lower standard than the English Premier League, but West Ham/Milwall draws a lot more interest than Bolton/Wigan. The standard is not the problem. The problem FC Edmonton has is being so isolated. No rivals, huge travel costs that otherwise could be re-invested in salaries or development. Even at a $1m salary buget, the overhead must be at least that if not double. How can you sustain this model on gate revenues which, at best, would be $500k-$1m? There's no way this is sustainable. If their fans are all like James a trumpet this compete with MLS crap, the club will disappear within 5 years. They need a league that makes some level of geographical sense. Build the culture, build the stadium, and then try to shoot for a higher standard.

[youllneverwalkalone]

If you cut through all the fly-by-night operations in the history of the USL/A-League, this is really what you had:

Vancouver

Seattle

Portland

Minnesota

Montreal

Toronto

Rochester

Richmond

Virginia Beach

Atlanta

Charleston

That's three geographical sub-regions which allows for lower travel costs and rivalry. Before taking half these teams over, MLS was struggling with both these issues and, in 2000, this league might have been a competitor to MLS.

The current NASL makes no sense. They've lost key markets to USL Pro, which really doesn't matter because MLS is going to get into that US southwest and take it over. And unlike hockey, there is a huge soccer tradition in this area. It's the only thing holding the NASL (and probably USL Pro) together right now.

[alberta white]

The English Championship is a lot lower standard than the English Premier League, but West Ham/Milwall draws a lot more interest than Bolton/Wigan. The standard is not the problem. The problem FC Edmonton has is being so isolated. No rivals, huge travel costs that otherwise could be re-invested in salaries or development. Even at a $1m salary buget, the overhead must be at least that if not double. How can you sustain this model on gate revenues which, at best, would be $500k-$1m? There's no way this is sustainable. If their fans are all like James a trumpet this compete with MLS crap, the club will disappear within 5 years. They need a league that makes some level of geographical sense. Build the culture, build the stadium, and then try to shoot for a higher standard.

Thats more to do with a London centric medi. and A history of the fans Kicking off on each other rather than buying each other a meat pie.

also Bolton Wigan sit in the Heart of Rugby League Country. Heck Wigan share their ground with the Wigan Warriors.

Also the two London clubs you mention are still in essence working class clubs.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Thats more to do with a London centric medi. and A history of the fans Kicking off on each other rather than buying each other a meat pie.

also Bolton Wigan sit in the Heart of Rugby League Country. Heck Wigan share their ground with the Wigan Warriors.

Also the two London clubs you mention are still in essence working class clubs.

Sorry, might have been a bad example. My point was simply that the playing level is not the first challenge to overcome for NASL/FC Edmonton to survive.

[strobe_z]

I'm not really suggesting the NASL has a lot of hope to compete with MLS, the point really was that nothing beyond the economic realities of running a second division league is stopping the NASL from fulfilling its potential.

I have to say I have a lot of faith in the NASL. As someone who supported the Aviators and kept an eye on D2 since the A-League days, there is a palpable difference in terms of the quality. I think if it can demonstrate an ability to run a stable quality league, at some point they need to partner with MLS (even if the MLS branding comes with it). It would lend a lot of respectability to all the operations.

Man would it be nice to get to hate teams from Victoria, Calgary and Winnipeg too.

[ted]

I think if it can demonstrate an ability to run a stable quality league, at some point they need to partner with MLS (even if the MLS branding comes with it). It would lend a lot of respectability to all the operations.

Stability in both a business sense and in quality, is essential right now. Going forward they will have to come to some sort of understanding with MLS and we can hope it will be a positive for everyone.

Man would it be nice to get to hate teams from Victoria, Calgary and Winnipeg too.

We'd love to hate you too. And we did for that exhibition game back in 2010.

[stevensandor]

First off, before anyone dreams of pro-rel in a new US/Canadian first and second division, remember that North America has quite different business laws and practices which, at the time, make pro-rel impossible.

It's called territorial rights, people. The idea that one team can have an entire market to itself, and has the power to cut its own local broadcast deals and be able to black out other broadcasts in its region. It's protected from having another team open up shop across town.

And, because of that, most major markets have but one team.

This doesn't happen in the rest of the world. London has many, many teams. As does Mexico City. Buenos Aires. Tokyo. Moscow. Because of this, promotion and relegation doesn't disturb broadcasters, rightsholders, because they know, because of the law of averages, those major markets will always be represented in the top flights of their leagues. Trust me, if there was but one London team (or even just two), one Moscow team or one Rome team, there wouldn't be promotion and relegation.

So, if you created a two- or three-division system in North America, how would this sell to your sponsors? "Yeah, Chicago and Toronto are being relegated, while Carolina and Edmonton are coming up."

As well, what would happen if two American teams were relegated while two Canadian teams came up?

This doesn't happen in the rest of the world because the major markets have multiple teams. Lose one? Big deal.

So, until we see someone challenge the notion of territorial rights in North America, something which would have repercussions for the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB, promotion and relegation is a moot point.

[alberta white]

Also to note Steve; The game roots were established in the UK well before ANY form of broadcast media existed.

Also when it (Broardcast media) did come into existance it was strictly controled visa vie its commercial potential.

For many years the ONLY Live game allowed on TV was the FA CUP final.

Not so the case in North America.

On the Pro/rel front. given the choice some of the English Premier League owners may want rid of it. But as we see this month, When the Title is all but done with, the fun starts at the other end of the table!

Take that away from English football and you kill its culture.

*EDIT*

Forgot one thing, The reuse of the Olympic Stadium has indeed become a territorial issue involving Tottenhan, West Ham and Leighton Orient (WHO?).

Not withstanding the machinations involved with hoosing the "rightful tenant" goind forward, there is also the problem of the two big clubs setting up shop on Orient's Manor!

[ted]

So, until we see someone challenge the notion of territorial rights in North America, something which would have repercussions for the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB, promotion and relegation is a moot point.

I think you may need to do some more research. The NFL does TV rights as a corporation not by teams. This is the main reason that the NFL is so successful and is able to maintain teams in smaller media markets.

So no, cooperative TV deals that every team gets a slice of is not only NOT impossible but is the model of perhaps the most successful TV sports deal in North America.

And part of the discussion of a far-future where pro-rel could happen is predicated on having at least as many NASL teams as MLS. IF we had two full-time professional leagues running successfully with 20 teams each then joining them into a two-division league (D1 & 2) would be possible and, to many people, preferable to a two-conference league (East - West).

But in any case, how about we worry about getting to the point of having 40 successful, full-time professional teams in North America first before we start fantasizing about how to merge them into one.