NASL expansion in Canada

[Macksam]

You mean like the decrease in attendance for TFC because of their perennial failure?

No, that's just fans getting fed up over a losing team and price gouging. A good example of what I describe would be the Argonauts. Even though they've been somewhat successful on the field in the last little while, the team still can't draw as well when compared to years gone by.

[Joe MacCarthy]

No, that's just fans getting fed up over a losing team and price gouging. A good example of what I describe would be the Argonauts. Even though they've been somewhat successful on the field in the last little while, the team still can't draw as well when compared to years gone by.

That's not quite true. Things seem to be looking up for the Boatmen. They've drawn 25,000 the last two games and are averaging 23215 over 7 games not counting the preseason.

Actually the attendance would be higher if the preseason games were averaged in (although one Argos pre season crowd was comps for kids)

Aside from the comps for kids, Braley doesn't paper the crowd. That's not to say previous ownership didn't. Toronto attendance fluctuates wildly. With the new revenue streams and low rent and climbing attendances Braley should be ok this year. From 1990 to 2007 the Argos have had 5 seasons in the 30K range and 8 in the teens. The numbers are all over the place, Toronto loves a winner.

[Trillium]

If the arena and stadium dont make money, the city gets little revenue .... except the reduction of the projected costs to run the old facility...i.e. Lansdowne used to lose 8.4 million a year the deal .... should reduce that to the city covering 110 million over forty years... so under three million a year cost for the facility instead of 8.4 million in losses. Remember if the accounting for OSEG teams shows they are not making money, no money flows to the city. So if money is spent on hiring consultants, etc who are OSEG employees, the revenue flows to OSEG it will be much like the NHL owners saying they dont make money on the team ... but making money on the arena that is owned by a seperate company.

What do you mean the city gets the stadium and rink back? Didn't they already own the entire facility?

http://ottawa.ca/cs/groups/content/@webottawa/documents/pdf/mdaw/mdyz/~edisp/con045835.pdf

Lansdowne Park and all existing facilities will then be

transferred to the Municipal Services Corporation. A new governance model similar to that of the

Ottawa Airport Authority will allow a Board of Directors to manage and

govern Lansdowne Park. The City will transfer funds to the MSC for the

redevelopment of the stadium, the arena and its share of the associated

parking.

The interface between the MSC and OSEG is key to the success of the

Lansdowne transformation. It is expected that MSC will enter into a

minumum 30-year head lease with OSEG for the entire park and contract

OSEG to undertake redevelopment and construction. OSEG will assume

the construction risk during the redevelopment period and the operations

risk on revenues and expense once the site reopens.

The plan and partnership framework that has been negotiated

STADIUM & ARENA

To fund the redevelopment of the stadium and the arena, the City will

transfer to the MSC $110 million of cash comprised of avoided budgetary

costs during the construction period ($8.4 million) and the issuance of

$101.6 million of debt. The ownership of the stadium and the arena will

also be transferred to the MSC. The MSC will contract OSEG to redevelop

the stadium and arena.

The current arena is just over forty years old ... so in forty more it and the stadium will need replacement.

[alberta white]

Why is it a shame? 24,000 is about all the market will bear for both football and soccer. Soccer in Canada is not regularly getting this type of crowd, sorry to say. Toronto, in a huge market is only drawing a little over 18000, Vancouver over 19000 (both down from about 20000) the year before. Montreal is difficult to gauge because of the big event games held at the Big O early in the year.

I think football can succeed in Ottawa. They had 100 years of pretty solid tradition before hitting the skids because of bad ownership and even then still had a 15000 core fanbase. No doubt Jeff Hunt has his work cut out for him but he has plans, one of which is a larger profile in the French community. Based on his past track record I wouldn't bet against this guy. And with the new larger revenue streams that CFL teams have now, as opposed to the 90s, life is a little easier for an owner.

I've been doing my due diligence on Desso GrassMaster. Good surface, no doubt, but is it right for Ottawa. I don't think it is. Aside from the higher costs of maintenance, how durable is it? The company propaganda says it can stand up to three times the regular use of a turf system. For arguments sake let's say that's about two times (still pretty good). But stadiums in Canada for the most part are also community used and throughout the winter. So, could it stand use by CFL, NASL and kids in the community with a bubble in the winter killing sunlight exposure. I'm not an expert but common sense tells me, no. Also for the same reason is why Edmonton (for so long the only big time stadium with a turf installation) decided to switch to artificial turf. Why? Costs and usage?

By shame, I mean a Pity that a Capital city with a population of 800,000 cannot generate more that 24000 for either sport. I understand its a legislative capital and not a massive conurbation Like Toronto: However If you were to compare it to Canberra, a city of a similar MO, they to have a 25Ker but this serves a population of only 350K.

Perhaps Aussie Pollies like there outdoor sports more?

[Redcoatsforever]

By shame, I mean a Pity that a Capital city with a population of 800,000 cannot generate more that 24000 for either sport. I understand its a legislative capital and not a massive conurbation Like Toronto: However If you were to compare it to Canberra, a city of a similar MO, they to have a 25Ker but this serves a population of only 350K.

Perhaps Aussie Pollies like there outdoor sports more?

It does get pretty cold in Ottawa, but I think if Ottawa can establish some cred they could fill the place eventually and even warrant expansion. The catch being that either NASL would have to grow massively as a league that could potentially allow pro/rel between several of its own tiers (since it's not a single-entity franchise league by my understanding) and it would have to be financially successful at the highest level, OR Ottawa would have to go up to MLS eventually. Not outside the realm of possibility, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Joe MacCarthy]

By shame, I mean a Pity that a Capital city with a population of 800,000 cannot generate more that 24000 for either sport.

You know what's a shame, that a market of 5-6 million can't sell more than 20000 tickets for a Canadian NT game and keeps being rewarded with games. That's a shame. And it'll likely continue because all the great new stadiums that are being built will not have turf surfaces like Toronto.

[alberta white]

Yes, it is. However, tradition can become irrelavent. You just have to take a look at the Argos to see that. Not only does Ottawa have less tradition in comparison, but the city's CFL team has been absent for a long time minus a small blip a couple years back. A lot of people move on from a sport that matters very little to them personally.

On a similar note, does anyone know if the CFL gets big ratings in Ottawa?

Tradition can become irrelevant if you allow to. Soccer fans have a habit of hanging onto it though.

It's intresting to see how the EPL has been Promoted since its inception 20 years ago. Sky and Fox (and to some extent TSN/ sportsnet etc) often build up a game as if its the biggest thing sinced football began: Implication been that there was noting doing before it began 20 years ago!

However this does not wash with the locals, and the whole pretence falls down with the "19 titles" chants form Man U. If viewed from a total EPL standpoint it make no sense because Liverpool won their 18 Championships Pre-1991.

Current EPL history also fails to take into account why Chealsea are derided so much by other fans as nothing more than " a bit of a flighty lass who found herself a rich boyfriend". Thats why were all waiting for the banana skin and the open manhole!

[Macksam]

That's not quite true. Things seem to be looking up for the Boatmen. They've drawn 25,000 the last two games and are averaging 23215 over 7 games not counting the preseason.

Actually the attendance would be higher if the preseason games were averaged in (although one Argos pre season crowd was comps for kids)

Aside from the comps for kids, Braley doesn't paper the crowd. That's not to say previous ownership didn't. Toronto attendance fluctuates wildly. With the new revenue streams and low rent and climbing attendances Braley should be ok this year. From 1990 to 2007 the Argos have had 5 seasons in the 30K range and 8 in the teens. The numbers are all over the place, Toronto loves a winner.

How do you know this for sure? I see comments on the Argos board about how a lot of tickets are still given away.

Not too sure about the Montreal game, but the Roughriders can be credited to the slight bump in attendance for the second last home game. I actually hear that a fair amount of the Argos home crowd are displaced people from Saskatchewan, who always support the Argos except when the Riders are in town.

Tradition can become irrelevant if you allow to. Soccer fans have a habit of hanging onto it though.

Yeah, that's true. However, soccer's accessibility and global appeal is so immense now that even if its tradition gets **** on or becomes irrelevant, the sport would still carry on without missing a beat. For this reason alone, I'm pretty sure if the battle between soccer and football as Canadian spectator sports happened today instead of the 40s, soccer would have won, and the resulting league would have been much bigger than the CFL is today.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Because that's not how Braley does business. He grows his business just like he did in BC and when he did paper the house with the school kids (pre season) it was well publicized by the Argos.

Look I want both to succeed (unlike some in this thread) but if you guys seriously think that a soccer team in a second tier league with likely no recognizable names or national TV exposure (the NASL on TSN?) is going to kick CFL butt you guys are seriously delusional. The CFL is going to have an entry draft where Ottawa will be able to be competitive from the start with name players. The owners have smartened up and finally realized that what is good for one is good for all, so they won't screw them like they did with the Renegades entry draft. Teams will only be able to protect one quarterback, so Ottawa is going to get somebody with some experience.

I see these arguments as hoping the CFL will fail so soccer will succeed, which is totally pathetic and probably unlikely. Actually the Renegades (always hated that name) attendance was better than I thought. 23,000 until the final year (18000) and in a facility that Jeff Hunt described as 5/10 of the reason why the franchise failed. The other half was the brutal out of town ownership (my words).

[Macksam]

You know what's a shame, that a market of 5-6 million can't sell more than 20000 tickets for a Canadian NT game and keeps being rewarded with games. That's a shame. And it'll likely continue because all the great new stadiums that are being built will not have turf surfaces like Toronto.

At least attendance is on the up and up. The Cuba game drew the highest out of the bunch. What were the nats averaging 6 to 10 years ago? Rome wasn't built in a day.

Because that's not how Braley does business. He grows his business just like he did in BC and when he did paper the house with the school kids (pre season) it was well publicized by the Argos.

It seems I have to take your word for this.

[Trillium]

Actually the Renegades (always hated that name) attendance was better than I thought. 23,000 until the final year (18000) and in a facility that Jeff Hunt described as 5/10 of the reason why the franchise failed. The other half was the brutal out of town ownership (my words).

Actually the city fathers and the media hated the owner when he had a very successfull..... Bead promotion in the south side stands, the reaction of the city fathers was apoplectic and sexist.

[Free kick]

.

That's not quite true. Things seem to be looking up for the Boatmen. They've drawn 25,000 the last two games and are averaging 23215 over 7 games not counting the preseason.

Actually the attendance would be higher if the preseason games were averaged in (although one Argos pre season crowd was comps for kids)

Aside from the comps for kids, Braley doesn't paper the crowd. That's not to say previous ownership didn't. Toronto attendance fluctuates wildly. With the new revenue streams and low rent and climbing attendances Braley should be ok this year. From 1990 to 2007 the Argos have had 5 seasons in the 30K range and 8 in the teens. The numbers are all over the place, Toronto loves a winner.

Article from todays newpaper which seems to be disputing your claims.

-------------

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/article/1271403--toronto-argonauts-suffer-24-12-setback-to-montreal-alouettes-cox

An absentee landlord is rarely good news for tenants.

Likewise, an absentee owner is rarely good news for a pro sports franchise.

After almost two seasons of being controlled by David Braley, who also owns the B.C. Lions, the Argonauts are anything but rejuvenated as a franchise, anything but in a stronger position than they were.

The team, despite playing in the weak East Division, is somewhat better, but attendance has declined. Even now, with an NHL lockout theoretically freeing up discretionary sports dollars in the GTA and the lure of a Grey Cup game at the Rogers Centre in November, the stands are half-full and the profile of the team is distressingly low, lower than it was during the days when the club was owned by Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon.

Having Braley own 25 cent of the league was always a bad idea with little upside. It still is.

His blue team crashed to its fourth loss in five outings on Sunday, delivering a dreadful performance with first place on the line in a 24-12 setback to the similarly struggling Montreal Alouettes. Creative counting put official attendance at 25,348, which is considered a very good gate for this football team these days.

Back in 2005 under Sokolowski and Cynamon, that crowd would have been a disappointment. Then, they were drawing more than 31,000 a game. In 2009, the final year of the old regime, an average of 26,374 turned out to watch a horrific 3-15 squad.

That looks like heaven now.

Since Braley “saved” the team — Sokolowski and Cynamon wanted other CFL owners to pitch in dollars to keep the Toronto franchise viable — it’s been pretty much downhill as far as both the profile of the team in the city and the willingness of fans to attend games.

That can’t be what Cohon was hoping for.

Sokolowski and Cynamon, whatever their shortcomings were as owners, did produce a championship and certainly cared about the team, maybe too much.

Braley, by contrast, is seldom seen, never heard from. Beat writers who follow the team every week have never met him.

Bob Nicholson was thrown overboard as team president in the last off-season, ostensibly because he had failed to excite the market. Well, it’s no bettter now.".........."....

Before Milanovich and Ray arrived, the Argos were among the lowest-scoring CFL teams. They still are.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Article from todays newpaper which seems to be disputing your claims.

Which claims exactly? I said they drew 25,000 for the past two games, the article says the last game was over 25000. I said from 1990 to 2007 the Argos have had 5 seasons in the 30K range and 8 in the teens, the article talks about the 30K years.

Now, what the article doesn't say was how Braley gave those two, according to the article, fantastic owners money to buy the team. Cox, who's a hockey writer doesn't have much to write about these days so they stick him on a football story. Of course now we get the revisionism of how great C and S were as owners. No mention of course of the York deal where they screwed people around. And of course an article criticizing the CFL in Toronto is an easy afternoon for a hack like Cox, to a more receptive audience than it would be Ontario west.

And the problem here is what? He bitches about an owner who lets his employees do their job, who saved the team when no one else in the big metropolis stepped forward and cries because Braley isn't a publicity hound to make crappy writers like Cox's job easier.

Seriously why don't some of you guys just confront the elephant in the room and say you want to see football dead. I thought it was baseball that the zealots hated more than football. If you guys are crazy enough to think it will help soccer then good luck with that. A vibrant sports community helps everybody.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Actually the city fathers and the media hated the owner when he had a very successfull..... Bead promotion in the south side stands, the reaction of the city fathers was apoplectic and sexist.

You got me on that one. The city fathers were sexist because women were being exploited (showing their xxxx) for the perverse pleasure of immature males? Am I reading that right? So you think TFC should try a bead promotion. Nice way to grow the game, it's a great way to get out the "living in the parents' basement" crowd.

[Joe MacCarthy]

It seems I have to take your word for this.

No you don't, do some research.

[Macksam]

Article from todays newpaper which seems to be disputing your claims.

-------------

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/article/1271403--toronto-argonauts-suffer-24-12-setback-to-montreal-alouettes-cox

An absentee landlord is rarely good news for tenants.

Likewise, an absentee owner is rarely good news for a pro sports franchise.

After almost two seasons of being controlled by David Braley, who also owns the B.C. Lions, the Argonauts are anything but rejuvenated as a franchise, anything but in a stronger position than they were.

The team, despite playing in the weak East Division, is somewhat better, but attendance has declined. Even now, with an NHL lockout theoretically freeing up discretionary sports dollars in the GTA and the lure of a Grey Cup game at the Rogers Centre in November, the stands are half-full and the profile of the team is distressingly low, lower than it was during the days when the club was owned by Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon.

Having Braley own 25 cent of the league was always a bad idea with little upside. It still is.

His blue team crashed to its fourth loss in five outings on Sunday, delivering a dreadful performance with first place on the line in a 24-12 setback to the similarly struggling Montreal Alouettes. Creative counting put official attendance at 25,348, which is considered a very good gate for this football team these days.

Back in 2005 under Sokolowski and Cynamon, that crowd would have been a disappointment. Then, they were drawing more than 31,000 a game. In 2009, the final year of the old regime, an average of 26,374 turned out to watch a horrific 3-15 squad.

That looks like heaven now.

Since Braley “saved” the team — Sokolowski and Cynamon wanted other CFL owners to pitch in dollars to keep the Toronto franchise viable — it’s been pretty much downhill as far as both the profile of the team in the city and the willingness of fans to attend games.

That can’t be what Cohon was hoping for.

Sokolowski and Cynamon, whatever their shortcomings were as owners, did produce a championship and certainly cared about the team, maybe too much.

Braley, by contrast, is seldom seen, never heard from. Beat writers who follow the team every week have never met him.

Bob Nicholson was thrown overboard as team president in the last off-season, ostensibly because he had failed to excite the market. Well, it’s no bettter now.".........."....

Before Milanovich and Ray arrived, the Argos were among the lowest-scoring CFL teams. They still are.

The profile of the team is seriously low no doubt. With no alternative venue on the horizon, The Argos situation could get worse considering the Jays might throw them out of the Rogers Centre over grass.

On a different note, here's a positive article about Ottawa and the CFL:

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/chris_schultz/?id=407427

[finchster]

The biggest problem for the Argo's isn't the popularity of the team but the stadium they play in. Look what happened to soccer in Toronto when they got a team and a proper stadium that was the right size and created a great atmosphere. How about how much more popular the Alouettes are since moving out of Olympic and into Molson stadium? The Argos want a stadium the size of BMO (why they wanted in there in the first place), a stadium of 20k would make tickets hard to come by making them more desirable and creating more interest in the team.

I think people underestimate the impact of quality sports marketing and a proper infrustructure. In the case of Ottawa, I can't imagine an NASL being that popular. THe average attendance of that league is 5k and they will play in a cavernous Frank Clair Stadium? there is a reason FC Edmonton play elsewhere, the atmosphere of a half empty stadium will be horrible.

[Joe MacCarthy]

On a different note, here's a positive article about Ottawa and the CFL

If I take the time to understand a sport, it's only a matter of time before I like the sport. Last June I took the time (forced by friends, actually) to watch the Euro Cup soccer in detail and to ask questions - and in the end I liked the sport.

A lot of people could take a page out of this book when it comes to any sport.

[Joe MacCarthy]

And just to show what a lazy and stupid writer Damien Cox is, there was a Q and A interview with David Braley just yesterday in the Vancouver Province. The dude is kinda busy being an auto parts magnate, Canadian senator, and owner of two CFL teams.

[Joe MacCarthy]

The Argos situation could get worse considering the Jays might throw them out of the Rogers Centre over grass.

Paul Beeston has stated if that happens it won't be for a while, at least four years (he said five years, I think, I read somewhere, a while back) IIRC Edit: Chris Rudge reiterated it

Either way it would be difficult to do

But the Argos would be stupid to not have a contingency or long term vision.

[Macksam]

Seriously why don't some of you guys just confront the elephant in the room and say you want to see football dead. I thought it was baseball that the zealots hated more than football. If you guys are crazy enough to think it will help soccer then good luck with that. A vibrant sports community helps everybody.

You haven't seen what zealot looks like. Head over to ESPN.com when a soccer article is on the main page. You'll see zealots in abundance. A lot more vitrol gets thrown the other way.

As for wanting football dead, hardly. I would like to see the Argos move to BMO....just after TFC outgrows it and moves into a grander arena. This is ofcourse after TFC is corrected as a franchise.

If I take the time to understand a sport, it's only a matter of time before I like the sport. Last June I took the time (forced by friends, actually) to watch the Euro Cup soccer in detail and to ask questions - and in the end I liked the sport.

A lot of people could take a page out of this book when it comes to any sport.

lulz, I think Trillium is a born and raised Canuck who probably knows the ins and outs of grid-iron football. Hell, he probably even knows the ins and outs of the CFL, like how it has a longer field, more men, bigger ball, 3 downs and how the defensive team needs to stay a meter behind the line of scrimmage before the snap.

The biggest problem for the Argo's isn't the popularity of the team but the stadium they play in. Look what happened to soccer in Toronto when they got a team and a proper stadium that was the right size and created a great atmosphere. How about how much more popular the Alouettes are since moving out of Olympic and into Molson stadium? The Argos want a stadium the size of BMO (why they wanted in there in the first place), a stadium of 20k would make tickets hard to come by making them more desirable and creating more interest in the team.

I agree with most of this. However, the location of this venue is going to be a hot-topic issue. If they move to BMO, that is fine. For the most part, the team plays in the same location and they get a more intimate venue, a win-win situation for them. However, if they choose to build something at York University, even with control of more revenue streams, the team will essentially throw away its older fan base in favour of a younger demographic, which the Argos might be salivating for...I don't know. Perhaps U of T is the answer. The team might be able to keep its current fanbase and gain the university crowd.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I would like to see the Argos move to BMO....just after TFC outgrows it and moves into a grander arena. This is ofcourse after TFC is corrected as a franchise.

If the best marketing empire in the country can't correct it I don't know who can. How can I say that? Well MLSE has paraded the biggest pile of losers for the past couple of decades and the saps still continue to fill the coffers.

and how the defensive team needs to stay a meter behind the line of scrimmage before the snap.

LOL, meter, good one.

However, if they choose to build something at York University, even with control of more revenue streams, the team will essentially throw away its older fan base in favour of a younger demographic, which the Argos might be salivating for...I don't know. Perhaps U of T is the answer. The team might be able to keep its current fanbase and gain the university crowd.

After C and S had the team and their shenanigans with the stadium process that was to become BMO, I doubt either U of T or York will go anywhere near them. Varsity is out due to finances and NIMBYism

[Marc]

Perhaps U of T is the answer. The team might be able to keep its current fanbase and gain the university crowd.

U of T is out. There's no room on campus, Varsity is a bad location for a stadium filled by a pro tenant (as much as I liked the old Varsity, the area has changed significantly), and let's be honest it is U of T - this is the university that buys old hotels because they have nowhere to put students. They're not going to waste real estate on a stadium that they don't need. As Joe mentioned, the Argos had their chance and screwed their potential partners in the name of a good lease.

[narduch]

U of T already got their stadium. They have no need for another larger one.

And by 2015 York U. will have their own similar stadium, so they are probably out too.

Wouldn't surprise me if one day TFC and the Argos do share BMO Field (say in 10 years). With TFC demand down and the new MLSE part-owners being receptive to the CFL I could see it happening.

As for grass in the SkyDome, I'm highly skeptical. It would be way too costly.

[alberta white]

If I take the time to understand a sport, it's only a matter of time before I like the sport. Last June I took the time (forced by friends, actually) to watch the Euro Cup soccer in detail and to ask questions - and in the end I liked the sport.

A lot of people could take a page out of this book when it comes to any sport.

They're starting a States-side IPL style T20 cricket League next year... Now there's a challenge.