NASL expansion in Canada

[ted]

So, the political situation of Puerto Rico, demographics of Canadian cities, and the tar sands are acceptable topics in a NASL expansion thread, but a U23 league is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Interesting place to draw the line, but OK, you're the boss.

Right, I'm the boss so everyone around here does what I say. What a load of crap. I have a right to ask what something that appears to have nothing to do with the discussion is doing here.

Puerto Rico, Canadian demographics and the tar sands were all directly related to the admittance or sustainability of NASL teams. Therefore they were, in context, all appropriate in this discussion thread.

What does a U-23 league have to do with the NASL? Seriously, connect the dots for me here.

It is a fine and well-discussed topic in other threads but WTF does it have to do with what this particular thread is about?

[ThiKu]

@Ted - I'll refer you to posts #34-40 ... during which you participated in and commented on a u23 league discussion. Maybe most pertinently your post #37. Thanks though.

Agreed though - there is a D2 discussion elsewhere on this board that discusses, amongst other things, a nationwide u23 league. Someone mentioned Mexico has a nationwide u23 league....but that doesn't particularly apply to Canada as the Mexican u23 league is below a top tier pro league.

Anyway....NASL expansion:

Victoria, Calgary, Winnipeg &/or Regina, Ottawa, Hamilton, Quebec, Maritimes. It can be done. If USSF/NASL would approve it. Otherwise a Canadian league with those teams plus Edmonton of course....and who knows maybe a "reserve" team from Whitecaps, TFC, and MTL adding to the league makes it potentially useful.

[Macksam]

Someone a page or two back discussed/mentioned the BC senior teams breaking off and creating a league. Well they tried to create a cup/league with the top 3-4 from each of the major leagues (excluding PCSL as it is summer-based). the VMSL teams stuck out their bottom lip and asked "why shouldn't all our teams be in it? we're better than everyone else." So the cup was dismantled and the VISL/FVSL created their own...VMSL then joined this year but it isn't the senior men's premier league they were envisioning.

That being said, NONE of the teams in VMSL are semi-pro ready. NONE. To create a league such as CSL or the new QC league...new teams will have to be formed. Likely created by the youth teams such as Surrey United or Metro Ford unless some investors come in (duh).

A nationwide u23 league is great...but who is going to fund it? Who is going to go watch it? No one goes to PDL....

How long of a season is a nationwide league going to be? Weather....I want it as badly as everyone else but but but!...

A regional u23 league can be done. It would be nationwide in scope but regional in operation.

[ted]

@Ted - I'll refer you to posts #34-40 ... during which you participated in and commented on a u23 league discussion. Maybe most pertinently your post #37. Thanks though.

Yeah, I'm guilty of getting sucked into a pointless sidetrack. So what? Are we trying to discuss NASL expansion in Canada or whatever random tangential subjects come up?

I hit my limit. YMMV but I have every right to ask that people stay on topic.

[ThiKu]

Is NASL expansion still something we're seeking in light of the ReThink suggestion of a Canadian league? NASL would be a more talented league than a Canadian one I'm sure....but for the purposes of developing players in Canada......not sure. FCE appears to be a great test case, and when Ottawa starts it'd be interesting if they take the same approach.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The recommendation made was option c, i.e. a U-23 oriented D3 level development league. There is zero possibility of a Canadian only D2 league emerging any time soon. This thread therefore remains relevant.

[kodiakTFC]

The recommendation made was option c, i.e. a U-23 oriented D3 level development league. There is zero possibility of a Canadian only D2 league emerging any time soon. This thread therefore remains relevant.

What about Option 1 of the recommendation which suggested how a Division 2 league in Canada could work? I doubt we see a Canadian league but the study clearly suggests a D2 as one option.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That was one of the options that was studied but it was almost universally seen as unrealistic by people involved in the sport. There is an interview with one of the people who was involved in the study on an It's Called Football podcast a few weeks ago in which this is all explained.

[ted]

Is NASL expansion still something we're seeking in light of the ReThink suggestion of a Canadian league?

Given that the Rethink "suggestion" is just one of four possible option they are discussing it is wildly premature to abandon the idea of NASL expansion in Canada.

Since NASL expansion in Canada is a better option than anything Rethink has proposed and not incompatible with some of their ideas it certainly makes sense to keep pushing for this idea.

The recommendation made was option c, i.e. a U-23 oriented D3 level development league.

Uhm, did I miss something? There has been no "recommendation" made. No conclusions forwarded to the CSA that I have seen.

There is a poll on the Rethink site asking for opinions on the four options presented. A poll that any Tom, Dick or Jane can answer I would add.

Given that Rethink is clearly not competent to advise on the development of the game in Canada I don't think we should be giving their "recommendations" any weight in any case.

[kodiakTFC]

That was one of the options that was studied but it was almost universally seen as unrealistic by people involved in the sport. There is an interview with one of the people who was involved in the study on an It's Called Football podcast a few weeks ago in which this is all explained.

Yeah I remember that. Its really unfortunate though because I would really love to see a league along the lines of the CFL one day. I guess we'll have to wait.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Yeah I remember that. Its really unfortunate though because I would really love to see a league along the lines of the CFL one day. I guess we'll have to wait.

Would be good. No question about that. Getting up to four or five pro teams has often been doable going as far back as the ECPSL in the 60s. The problem historically has been reaching eight and I suspect it's going to be at least another generation before that changes.

[kodiakTFC]

Would be good. No question about that. Getting up to four or five pro teams has often been doable going as far back as the ECPSL in the 60s. The problem historically has been reaching eight and I suspect it's going to be at least another generation before that changes.

Its in my opinion that 8 isn't enough either. I think we need at least 12 because you'd need 2 conferences with weighed regional schedules to cut down on travel. I think if you had 12, you could have some smaller markets like Victoria and Halifax have a chance financially.

[ThiKu]

8 is fine. Especially if all 8 have a dedicated youth program, and commitment to development (aka - hiring good youth coaches and developing strong relationships with their provincial associations and local youth clubs. By strong I mean being mutually beneficial!).

8 is fine for us...for now...because I see Scotland's premier having just 10 teams....and starting next year a 10 team u20 league (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptional Scottish Div 1 youth programs being allowed entry)....

Yes yes, I know Scotland isn't exactly the pinnacle of development, but they do what they can with what they have.

[kodiakTFC]

8 is fine. Especially if all 8 have a dedicated youth program, and commitment to development (aka - hiring good youth coaches and developing strong relationships with their provincial associations and local youth clubs. By strong I mean being mutually beneficial!).

8 is fine for us...for now...because I see Scotland's premier having just 10 teams....and starting next year a 10 team u20 league (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptional Scottish Div 1 youth programs being allowed entry)....

Yes yes, I know Scotland isn't exactly the pinnacle of development, but they do what they can with what they have.

Scotland is infinitely smaller geographically, travel isn't an issue. I fear travel is the downfall of a proper Canadian league.

[ray]

A Canadian regionally-based 3rd division is something the CSA, provincial bodies and other stakeholders should pursue. Further NASL expansion is what we should hope for. The former is something the CSA can work toward because many pieces are already in place. The latter requires a larger investment from an owner. The prospective NASL owner has to want in. The CSA doesn't really have any influence. So the CSA's plan should be to work where they can have an influence (3rd division) and let NASL happen when the time is right.

A pan-Canadian league is a non-starter.

[ted]

Ray, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I'd like to talk about it some more so I opened a new thread (A Workable National D3?) as it is about a new topic.

[Max]

NASL commissioner speaks about Ottawa, FC Edmonton and Canadian expansion

http://the11.ca/2012/04/17/nasl-commissioner-speaks-about-ottawa-fc-edmonton-and-canadian-expansion/

NASL Commissioner David Downs made himself available to be interviewed by The 11 on Tuesday. The commissioner, now in his second year with the league, talked about the Ottawa situation, Edmonton’s new stadium plans and further expansion into Canada, the U.S. and the Caribbean.

On Ottawa’s entry into NASL:

“We are extremely happy with the ownership group themselves, they have got a great plan… As far as the ratification process for the stadium, we understand there is one last appeal to be heard on the Lansdowne site. We believe they will be on time and in good shape to enter our league no later than 2014.

But, will Ottawa be ready for next season? Downs admitted that it is “unlikely” that the Ottawa team could play in a semi-finished Lansdowne site for the 2013 season. The club is welcome to join the league for 2013, but it will likely be up to ownership to find a temporary facility it can call home until the new stadium is done.

On FC Edmonton’s move from Foote Field to Clarke Stadium:

“Everything I have been told about it is very positive. But it’s not perfect; that won’t come until a new Women’s World Cup stadium is constructed in Edmonton, and the team will be involved in that.”

Downs will be in meetings this weekend with a possible expansion suitor, so he won’t be in attendance for Sunday’s Clarke Stadium opener, which sees FC Edmonton host the Minnesota Stars.

On further Canadian expansion:

“We have definitely been engaged with several potential markets.”

But Downs said, because all discussions are in the preliminary stages, that he wouldn’t want to divulge exactly which Canadian markets at which the league is looking.

“I wouldn’t say Canada is a number-one priority,” said Downs. “For us, the number-one priority is the west coast of the United States and filling out the Midwest. But, with the success Montreal and Edmonton have had in our league, it is clear Canada is a fertile ground for professional soccer, and we would be remiss not to look at other opportunities there.”

And those American markets?

Downs cofirmed that NASL’s sights are set on San Diego, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Sacramento and the greater Los Angeles area (Anaheim, Riverside).

Downs on the diversification of the current NASL portfolio:

Traffic USA, a subsidiary of the Brazilian mega sports agency Traffic Sports, has stakes in three NASL clubs — the Atlanta Silverbacks, Carolina RailHawks and Fort Lauderdale Strikers.

Traffic doesn’t want three teams, NASL doesn’t want Traffic to have three teams, and the United States Soccer Federation doesn’t want Traffic to own three teams.

Downs reported that that there have been offers from potential investors, and there is “serious interest” in all three teams. But there is nothing concrete to report at this time.

As well, the league continues to operate the Minnesota franchise.

“But, with the team’s remarkable run to the playoffs and to the league championship, and last week’s home opener at the Metrodome, there is heightened awareness of the team’s situation,” said Downs, “which we hope leads to more progress on the investor front.”

On further Caribbean expansion:

“The success of Puerto Rico in our league has us pondering if there might be a team in Jamaica or the Dominican Republic that would fit in our league down the road.”

But, unlike some of the western U.S. cities that Downs mentioned, there are no advanced negotiations going on with any other marker in the Caribbean.

“But if we are going to reach 20 teams by 2020, we want to be a North American league, including the Caribbean.”

On expansion San Antonio playing its home opener in front of 13,151 fans (which, by the way, is better than FC Dallas can manage on many nights):

“I don’t think I would use the word ‘surprise.’ I have been following this club very closely, and I have been predicting something like this for months. I was at the match and it was absolutely hearty-warming and pleasing. The support there was absolutely tremendous. We may have been surprised a bit by the final attendance, because of the huge walk-up. But we are very confident they will fill the shoes of Montreal.”

On NASL player movement to MLS:

“The system is working quite well, considering we have no formal agreement with MLS,” said Downs.

He said that 16 players who were in NASL in 2011 are now in MLS. “That’’s nie per cent of our players, and it’s a pretty compelling number.”

But the truth is all 16 of those players were out of contract at the end of 2011 and were free to move up. MLS doesn’t pay transfer fees to NASL clubs, so players on longer-term deals can’t move up, even if their Div.-2 team is fine with selling them.

Right now, Downs doesn’t see too much of an issue, as most NASL players are on one-year deals and have the opportunities to move. So, FC Edmonton is a bit of an aberration by signing players to multi-year deals, and it explains why FCE didn’t see one of its players move up to MLS in 2012.

[ted]

NASL Commissioner David Downs [said]... most NASL players are on one-year deals and have the opportunities to move. So, FC Edmonton is a bit of an aberration by signing players to multi-year deals, and it explains why FCE didn’t see one of its players move up to MLS in 2012.

Uhm, Hel-lo? Maybe if your clubs signed them for multi-years MLS would start paying transfer fees? If you keep giving the players away for free of course they are not going to pay you! Who ever heard of a successful second division club that did not "sell" players?

[Drew Shaw]

Can there even BE more Canadian teams in the NASL? Doesn't that league have a 75% US team rule (unlike USL Pro, to which no such restriction applies), which means that there needs to be at least 3 more new teams before more Canadian teams can join (after Ottawa does so)?

[alberta white]

There is. but it seems more of a desire, rather than a hard and fast rule at the moment.

[ThiKu]

Obviously more Canadian teams can join NASL since the commissioner is looking into it... we can all guess what cities those might be.

[Stuart]

Obviously more Canadian teams can join NASL since the commissioner is looking into it... we can all guess what cities those might be.

PLEASE, PLEASE let one of them be CALGARY!!

[kodiakTFC]

Obviously more Canadian teams can join NASL since the commissioner is looking into it... we can all guess what cities those might be.

Well that's not entirely true because there is a 75% American quota to keep its D2 status and PRI isn't included. However, if they plan to have 20 teams by 2020, that's 5 teams outside of US and with 3 all ready (Ottawa included), that gives us 2 more teams.

I also hope its Calgary!

[ray]

I think NASL could make a good case to the USSF to add Canadian (foreign) teams over the 25% limit at this stage. It is not in the interest of US soccer to see a their 2nd division fail. Adding a hypothetical 3rd Canadian franchise (after Ottawa) that otherwise meets the 2nd division criteria would strengthen the NASL which is too reliant on Traffic Sports. That said, of course we should be hoping for a few new American NASL franchises to make the 25% limit academic.

[Redcoatsforever]

I think NASL could make a good case to the USSF to add Canadian (foreign) teams over the 25% limit at this stage. It is not in the interest of US soccer to see a their 2nd division fail. Adding a hypothetical 3rd Canadian franchise (after Ottawa) that otherwise meets the 2nd division criteria would strengthen the NASL which is too reliant on Traffic Sports. That said, of course we should be hoping for a few new American NASL franchises to make the 25% limit academic.

The NASL commissioner stated the other day that they'll have at least 4 new American clubs joining the league in the next season and that further Carribean expansion is something they want as well. They have a goal of having 20 clubs in the league based on the interview, meaning they would need at least 15 US based clubs. If we don't lobby for more of the league from the USSF, we could probably see another Carribean club in addition to PRI, and 3 Canadian clubs. Personally I think Canada could probably pull off four or five NASL clubs if they're well run and have dedicated owners.