NASL expansion in Canada

[ThiKu]

@foreverthursday - that's a post I can get behind! Well said.

Yes, a nationwide regional D3 is great if following your model. But the only way it can work is if there is a carrott - TV coverage, a few foreign signings (a version of DP I suppose), and opportunity to play in nationwide televised and streamed Canadian Championship games v. the MLS/NASL teams, as well as some sort of regular streaming online and maybe televised games for the D3 playoffs...semi finals and finals on TV maybe with everything (incl those finals) streamed online.

There would also have to be significant youth soccer support - ie, have a requirement such as in the Mexican top league where they have certain amount of minutes dedicated to players under a certain age and are homegrown.

[ted]

Didn't Puerto Rico just vote in a Republican Primary, Along with American Samoa.

Puerto Rico is an odd "state". They are technically part of the United States as conquered territory but have never been given full recognition which would make them the 51st State. In soccer terms therefore they are an independent "nation" and have their own FA separate from USSF: the Federación Puertorriqueña de Fútbol. That is why they count as "foreign" as far as the USSF are concerned. In the football world American Samoa is also an independent nation with their own federation: Football Federation American Samoa (FFAS) which competes in the Oceania along with New Zealand.

[alberta white]

^ Tis a tangeled web we weave,

To play, square pass and then receive.

[Macksam]

But is it really feesible?

You would think that Hockey mad canada woould be able to support its own top flight, but its been entrenched in the NHL for generations.

Not to single you out considering I enjoy your posts alberta white, but it seems only immigrants(you are from England, right?) seem to be bring this up as a reference, mosty due to the fact they don't know the NHL's history too well, for how soccer can't develop its own top flight. We don't have an exclusively top flight Canadian hockey league because the issue has never come up before... until recently albeit with the whole talk about a second team in Toronto. If we truly genuinely wanted to start a seperate Canadian top flight hockey league with the NHL teams splitting away, we could easily do that. The problem is nobody wants to do that.

[alberta white]

Not to single you out considering I enjoy your posts alberta white, but it seems only immigrants(you are from England, right?) seem to be bring this up as a reference, mosty due to the fact they don't know the NHL's history too well, for how soccer can't develop its own top flight. We don't have an exclusively top flight Canadian hockey league because the issue has never come up before... until recently albeit with the whole talk about a second team in Toronto. If we truly genuinely wanted to start a seperate Canadian top flight hockey league with the NHL teams splitting away, we could easily do that. The problem is nobody wants to do that.

Thanks for that Macksam, I been wondering for a while as to why the staus quo exists. I was wondering if had anything to do with Socio-Economics or Colonialism, that sort of thing.

Probably because the English set up the Football Association even before Queen Victoria was on the throne. they find it difficult to appreciate why one country would happily play its favorite in another country's domain. Most often have to be reminded of Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexhams' position.

Yes the English are arrogant the Germans are officious the french are ...welll... the French etc etc.

[LSM]

It's worth noting that the National in NHL refers to the nation of Canada. The five teams that formed the league being: CH Canadien, Montreal Wanderers, Toronto Arenas, Ottawa Senators, and Quebec Bulldogs.

(CH Canadien still exists, as do the Arenas - who changed their name to St. Patricks then Maple Leafs. The Bulldogs moved and folded, as did the Sens - who have since had a new team named after them. The Wanderers' arena burned down and were replaced as the anglophone Montreal team by the Maroons, who eventually folded.)

[Macksam]

Thanks for that Macksam, I been wondering for a while as to why the staus quo exists. I was wondering if had anything to do with Socio-Economics or Colonialism, that sort of thing.

Probably because the English set up the Football Association even before Queen Victoria was on the throne. they find it difficult to appreciate why one country would happily play its favorite in another country's domain. Most often have to be reminded of Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexhams' position.

Yes the English are arrogant the Germans are officious the french are ...welll... the French etc etc.

No problem my man. If the drive to become an American past time had not occured in the 1970s, the NHL would probably be 50% Canadian right now with about a total of 20 teams, the American ones all near the border like the great lakes or north east region...maybe even the north west.

[coppercanuck]

I've actually started looking at it from the bottom up lately.

BC needs to get a league above it Senior leagues (VISL, VMSL, FVSL and PCSL). The top teams in these league need to be pushed it a more provincial/regional level.

Quebec-Windsor Corridor is an alphabet soup of leagues. The travel argument makes me ill. Toronto Lynx of the PDL will travel this season to Chicago (842 km) and Cincinnati (812 km). Ottawa Fury's 4 road trips will take them to basically Boston (8 hours) every time.

Yes, the corridor is 1,144 km but the population and number of teams is very high. 4 PDL teams, 16 CSL teams, 10 OSL teams, 20 LSEQ teams and another 50+ teams playing in smaller regional leagues but still competing for a chance to get to the Senior Nationals via the Ontario Cup and Saputo Cup. All not connected.

I'd be ok with a model that combines some of these leagues and gets the best players to the top of the heap. I didn't even talk about the 42 CIS teams across the country. That would be the shot across the bow of the USSF ... CSA/CIS agreement to get all 42 CIS teams into the PDL. Each would play the month and a half in the PDL as a pre season to the CIS season.

But I'm rambling ... The key to getting more teams at the NASL level is strong ownership. The potential owners can test the markets at these lower levels. Build a fan base. Build a media base. Then make the jump.

[Macksam]

I've actually started looking at it from the bottom up lately.

BC needs to get a league above it Senior leagues (VISL, VMSL, FVSL and PCSL). The top teams in these league need to be pushed it a more provincial/regional level.

Quebec-Windsor Corridor is an alphabet soup of leagues. The travel argument makes me ill. Toronto Lynx of the PDL will travel this season to Chicago (842 km) and Cincinnati (812 km). Ottawa Fury's 4 road trips will take them to basically Boston (8 hours) every time.

Yes, the corridor is 1,144 km but the population and number of teams is very high. 4 PDL teams, 16 CSL teams, 10 OSL teams, 20 LSEQ teams and another 50+ teams playing in smaller regional leagues but still competing for a chance to get to the Senior Nationals via the Ontario Cup and Saputo Cup. All not connected.

I'd be ok with a model that combines some of these leagues and gets the best players to the top of the heap. I didn't even talk about the 42 CIS teams across the country. That would be the shot across the bow of the USSF ... CSA/CIS agreement to get all 42 CIS teams into the PDL. Each would play the month and a half in the PDL as a pre season to the CIS season.

But I'm rambling ... The key to getting more teams at the NASL level is strong ownership. The potential owners can test the markets at these lower levels. Build a fan base. Build a media base. Then make the jump.

Craig Forrest was saying yesterday how Mexico designed a u-23 league across the country to better its youth development. Richard Whithall(sp) was saying the same thing when he was talking about the national league report's recommendation that will be out soon enough. I think that can go along for us, whether it is built from scratch or existing teams join it.

[Keegan]

Craig Forrest was saying yesterday how Mexico designed a u-23 league across the country to better its youth development. Richard Whithall(sp) was saying the same thing when he was talking about the national league report's recommendation that will be out soon enough. I think that can go along for us, whether it is built from scratch or existing teams join it.

I was having this exact conversation with a friend last night. With our country size we should be looking to follow a CHL model, we can't have teams traveling coast to coast to play in front of 5,000 fans. My idea was a U23 league with 3 overage players allowed on each team, 3 regional leagues and one annual championship (memorial cup style), the 3 overage players would be nice I think it would give some room for marketing opportunities (for instance, a guy like Gatti could retire in Niagara). If we can becomes champions of development in the region we don't need to worry about a coast to coast D2 just like how we dominate in hockey without our own league and against countries who all have their own leagues.

[DigzTFC]

I strongly believe that an regional U-23 will be the direction that the CSA will go once they approve Phase 1 of the Rethink study. However, I think we're on to something here with the CIS/CSA coming to an agreement.

Can we explore this idea further:

What if CIS schools downward integrate their teams into U-6 levels. Thereby, creating a full academy system for each university. Also, university soccer season can be extended to match the MLS season. Players are not paid to keep their amateur status but the incentive is to receive a scholarship. Parents push their kids to remain in the program to save them the tuition.

Creating a PDL team isn't improving anything that currently existed. Consistent coaching from a young age with an academy system seems to be the most celebrated approach to becoming a professional soccer player. Universities can charge annual fees to registrants and have those fees offset the scholarships. Realistically, only 3-5 new players will join the team each year, so its not inconceivable that the fees cannot offset the scholarships.

Why are universities instead of semi-pro teams? They're recession proof (people get more education when there are no jobs), they have infrastructure and access to land and capital funding, and they have a built-in fan base. Plus, parents will be more willing for their child to commit to intense training knowing (if they make the team) they have been given a education if they don't become professional.

Of course there are a lot of hurdles but this makes the most sense to me. Thoughts?

[ted]

I admire the attempt to "think outside the box" but in this case it has gone too far, sorry.

I strongly believe that an regional U-23 will be the direction that the CSA will go once they approve Phase 1 of the Rethink study. However, I think we're on to something here with the CIS/CSA coming to an agreement.

Could you provide some links to anything that supports this please? What CIS/CSA agreement are you talking about, has there been any leaks from the CSA on their findings?

What if CIS schools downward integrate their teams into U-6 levels. Thereby, creating a full academy system for each university.

You are suggesting that universities get into the business of running full-time youth soccer programs? Really!?!

On what planet do you think that university administrators, provincial legislators and taxpayers would ever consider this an acceptable use of education funding?

Creating a PDL team isn't improving anything that currently existed.

How do you figure that? The PDL is already a regional U-23 league system. It could be improved and expanded for sure but I am pretty sure it is filling a hole in the development system.

Universities can charge annual fees to registrants and have those fees offset the scholarships. Realistically, only 3-5 new players will join the team each year, so its not inconceivable that the fees cannot offset the scholarships.

So your big idea is for the parents of little Johnny (7) and Jane (12) to pay for the scholarships of university players on the chance that several years down the road Johnny and Jane might make the varsity squad and earn a "scholarship"?

Why are universities instead of semi-pro teams?

Why would universities wish to double the length of the season they currently play? Why would they wish to administer youth teams? Why would they invest time and money in an activity that contributes absolutely nothing to the mission of the university?

Of course there are a lot of hurdles but this makes the most sense to me. Thoughts?

Sadly this idea makes no sense. What might make sense is for clubs to partner with local schools (secondary and post-secondary) to provide educational space as a component of an academy/training system.

Soccer cannot and should not be developed through the college system. What has been shown to work around the world is the club system with academies and development teams. No need to re-invent the wheel here.

[Free kick]

Creating a PDL team isn't improving anything that currently existed. Consistent coaching from a young age with an academy system seems to be the most celebrated approach to becoming a professional soccer player.

This, i agree with. For those whose primary concern is developing and producing better players for canada and improving the depth of the player pool, all this talk of PDL and creating second divisions is pointless. I challenge someone to name me one national team player from from anywhere around the world that played professionally in that country's second division at the time of earning their cap. It came close last year when there was talk for the first time that England might look at one ( i think it was a goal keeper) from the Championship ( ie : the second tier in england). Yes, the academies are much more important.

Yes, In the big four or five in europe, you will find several forieigners in the second divisions who are internationals for other countries but that speaks more about the strenght (or lack thereof) of those foreign countries. And about income opportunities. But those income opportunities are never going to exist in canada. If the best you can get as an apprentice with the current MLS sides is 18K. What til you see what you get playing for a second divsion side in Canada.

Bottom line its all about the right coaching. You are not going get the right coaching and the income potential wont be strong enough keep those potential second div players from going abroad. Why there is all this talk about second divisions, PDL etc is totally beyond me. When the USL was the highest level around, very few were clamouring for those players to get called up the MNT. So why would that change if you were to create a second division. All a second div would is spead the gospel to those areas beyond the current MLS markets. But even that is very debatable.

[DigzTFC]

I admire the attempt to "think outside the box" but in this case it has gone too far, sorry.

Could you provide some links to anything that supports this please? What CIS/CSA agreement are you talking about, has there been any leaks from the CSA on their findings?

- The CIS/CSA agreement is something mentioned earlier in this thread. A regional U23 league is highly regarded by everyone who provided input into the Rethink Phase 1 study. I am confident it will be a part of it

You are suggesting that universities get into the business of running full-time youth soccer programs? Really!?!

On what planet do you think that university administrators, provincial legislators and taxpayers would ever consider this an acceptable use of education funding?

- I suggested playing fees underwriting the scholarship funds. I didn't infer education funds would be used.

How do you figure that? The PDL is already a regional U-23 league system. It could be improved and expanded for sure but I am pretty sure it is filling a hole in the development system.

- Yes it can be improved upon. What are your suggestions?

So your big idea is for the parents of little Johnny (7) and Jane (12) to pay for the scholarships of university players on the chance that several years down the road Johnny and Jane might make the varsity squad and earn a "scholarship"?

- It's an incentive. What's the difference between player fees for one club over another? If I play for a local youth club, I will pay fees to play. The program I suggested gives the child exposure to the university coaching staff and playing system. Parents are very concerned with their children getting an education. Its seems logical to improve the development system with education being part of reward for good players.

Why would universities wish to double the length of the season they currently play? Why would they wish to administer youth teams? Why would they invest time and money in an activity that contributes absolutely nothing to the mission of the university?

- The length of the season relates to the development of the players. You're correct that Universities may not have an interest in doing so. CIS could see it as a competitive advantage to NCAA. They could have an interest in administering youth teams to underwrite sports scholarships, which are few are far between, and try to be competitive with NCAA.

- I'm unfamiliar with a unified mission of universities. I see them like any other business.

Sadly this idea makes no sense. What might make sense is for clubs to partner with local schools (secondary and post-secondary) to provide educational space as a component of an academy/training system.

- Maybe this is correct. I don't have absolute answers. But this contributes more to the idea then the rest of your comments.

Soccer cannot and should not be developed through the college system. What has been shown to work around the world is the club system with academies and development teams. No need to re-invent the wheel here.

[Keegan]

This, i agree with. For those whose primary concern is developing and producing better players for canada and improving the depth of the player pool, all this talk of PDL and creating second divisions is pointless. I challenge someone to name me one national team player from from anywhere around the world that played professionally in that country's second division at the time of earning their cap. It came close last year when there was talk for the first time that England might look at one ( i think it was a goal keeper) from the Championship ( ie : the second tier in england). Yes, the academies are much more important.

Yes, In the big four or five in europe, you will find several forieigners in the second divisions who are internationals for other countries but that speaks more about the strenght (or lack thereof) of those foreign countries. And about income opportunities. But those income opportunities are never going to exist in canada. If the best you can get as an apprentice with the current MLS sides is 18K. What til you see what you get playing for a second divsion side in Canada.

Bottom line its all about the right coaching. You are not going get the right coaching and the income potential wont be strong enough keep those potential second div players from going abroad. Why there is all this talk about second divisions, PDL etc is totally beyond me. When the USL was the highest level around, very few were clamouring for those players to get called up the MNT. So why would that change if you were to create a second division. All a second div would is spead the gospel to those areas beyond the current MLS markets. But even that is very debatable.

No one is saying we are going to cap players from this league, this is purely for development...

Look at how many players on any national team have played in second divisions/developmental environments and I think you'll be surprised. And even if you do want to go the academy approach you still need something for the players to strive for!!! You can't just expect to cover all the expenses of an academy with no income either. It would be ideal for this system to work in conjunction with academies, as in these U23 teams extend down from their first team to a U8 level.

[maccaliam]

This, i agree with. For those whose primary concern is developing and producing better players for canada and improving the depth of the player pool, all this talk of PDL and creating second divisions is pointless. I challenge someone to name me one national team player from from anywhere around the world that played professionally in that country's second division at the time of earning their cap. It came close last year when there was talk for the first time that England might look at one ( i think it was a goal keeper) from the Championship ( ie : the second tier in england). Yes, the academies are much more important.

Yes, In the big four or five in europe, you will find several forieigners in the second divisions who are internationals for other countries but that speaks more about the strenght (or lack thereof) of those foreign countries. And about income opportunities. But those income opportunities are never going to exist in canada. If the best you can get as an apprentice with the current MLS sides is 18K. What til you see what you get playing for a second divsion side in Canada.

Bottom line its all about the right coaching. You are not going get the right coaching and the income potential wont be strong enough keep those potential second div players from going abroad. Why there is all this talk about second divisions, PDL etc is totally beyond me. When the USL was the highest level around, very few were clamouring for those players to get called up the MNT. So why would that change if you were to create a second division. All a second div would is spead the gospel to those areas beyond the current MLS markets. But even that is very debatable.

I'm almost positive David Nugent was playing in the Championship (for PNE i believe) when he was capped by England.

As Keegan said, the desire for a D2 isn't so we can have all of our MNT players playing there, it is to provide a place for young, developing players to play in Canada. If you look at how many international players around the world have played at some point in their career in second division sides, you will find more have than haven't.

[alberta white]

I'm almost positive David Nugent was playing in the Championship (for PNE i believe) when he was capped by England.

As Keegan said, the desire for a D2 isn't so we can have all of our MNT players playing there, it is to provide a place for young, developing players to play in Canada. If you look at how many international players around the world have played at some point in their career in second division sides, you will find more have than haven't.

Also Steve Bull Capped 13 times and 4 goals.

Played in the Italia 1990 Campaign; Englands most sucessful since 1966.

From WIKI:

[steve] Bull was capped 13 times by England, and scored 4 goals, all coming in the build up to Italia 90. He scored his first goal on his debut after replacing an injured John Fashanu against Scotland on 27 May 1989. Two more goals came in a friendly against Czechoslovakia in 1989–90, one of which was voted number 37 of England's 50 Greatest Goals. His final England goal came against Tunisia, which earned him a place in Bobby Robson's World Cup squad.

Despite starting his international career well, he did not score another goal for England after this. He played four times during Italia 90 - three times as a substitute against Republic of Ireland, Holland and Belgium and once as a starter against Egypt. His final match for England was on 17 October 1990 against Poland, but he was not picked again by his future Wolves manager, Graham Taylor.

Bull was still technically a Third Division player when he won his first two caps, at the end of the 1988-89 season, as Wolves had not yet played in Division Two after their promotion that season. He remains the last player to be capped by England from outside the top two tiers, and one of only five post-war players so honoured.[22]

In total he scored nine goals in 23 appearances for his country at full, U-21 and "B" team levels.

[Gordon]

I defy anyone to find me a national team where a significant portion, if not the majority, of players did not spend time on the books of a lower division side as a schoolboy. Like the handful of examples of lower division players being capped, they will be the exceptions not the rule. The hope that community and amature teams are going to be able to provide the level of coaching required, especially if pursuing the notion of no pay to play is farfetched if you ask me - simply because those same clubs do not have the resources required, nor are they likely to.

[alberta white]

^ some examples to back up Gordons comment.

England Players who did not start their careers in the top flight.

Kevin Keegan- S****horpe United.

David Platt - Port Vale.

Gary Lineker - Leicester City

And Peter Beardsley - Carlisle United and.... Two spells at Vancouver Whitecaps!

Even Beckham was out by SAF to Preston North End in 1995.

Generally the Welsh Nats are commonly found haunting the English Second Tier.

Hey Mods! I didn't know that S****horpe was considered a rude word.Apart from in Doncaster that is.

[maccaliam]

^ some examples to back up Gordons comment.

England Players who did not start their careers in the top flight.

Kevin Keegan- S****horpe United.

David Platt - Port Vale.

Gary Lineker - Leicester City

And Peter Beardsley - Carlisle United and.... Two spells at Vancouver Whitecaps!

Even Beckham was out by SAF to Preston North End in 1995.

Generally the Welsh Nats are commonly found haunting the English Second Tier.

Hey Mods! I didn't know that S****horpe was considered a rude word.Apart from in Doncaster that is.

Plus every player that has been developed by Barcelona, as their reserves play in the second division, thus giving their young players a much needed stepping stone from the Academy to playing vs men before they are reading to challenge for spots on the first team.

[James]

I was just about to post it. Bull was a favourite of mine growing up. Scored at will for Wolves. Had many opportunities to play all over the place for major european clubs but stayed loyal to Wolves.

Also Steve Bull Capped 13 times and 4 goals.

Played in the Italia 1990 Campaign; Englands most sucessful since 1966.

From WIKI:

[steve] Bull was capped 13 times by England, and scored 4 goals, all coming in the build up to Italia 90. He scored his first goal on his debut after replacing an injured John Fashanu against Scotland on 27 May 1989. Two more goals came in a friendly against Czechoslovakia in 1989–90, one of which was voted number 37 of England's 50 Greatest Goals. His final England goal came against Tunisia, which earned him a place in Bobby Robson's World Cup squad.

Despite starting his international career well, he did not score another goal for England after this. He played four times during Italia 90 - three times as a substitute against Republic of Ireland, Holland and Belgium and once as a starter against Egypt. His final match for England was on 17 October 1990 against Poland, but he was not picked again by his future Wolves manager, Graham Taylor.

Bull was still technically a Third Division player when he won his first two caps, at the end of the 1988-89 season, as Wolves had not yet played in Division Two after their promotion that season. He remains the last player to be capped by England from outside the top two tiers, and one of only five post-war players so honoured.[22]

In total he scored nine goals in 23 appearances for his country at full, U-21 and "B" team levels.

[Macksam]

I was having this exact conversation with a friend last night. With our country size we should be looking to follow a CHL model, we can't have teams traveling coast to coast to play in front of 5,000 fans. My idea was a U23 league with 3 overage players allowed on each team, 3 regional leagues and one annual championship (memorial cup style), the 3 overage players would be nice I think it would give some room for marketing opportunities (for instance, a guy like Gatti could retire in Niagara). If we can becomes champions of development in the region we don't need to worry about a coast to coast D2 just like how we dominate in hockey without our own league and against countries who all have their own leagues.

This would be a good way to usher in a new era of Canadian soccer.

[ThiKu]

Someone a page or two back discussed/mentioned the BC senior teams breaking off and creating a league. Well they tried to create a cup/league with the top 3-4 from each of the major leagues (excluding PCSL as it is summer-based). the VMSL teams stuck out their bottom lip and asked "why shouldn't all our teams be in it? we're better than everyone else." So the cup was dismantled and the VISL/FVSL created their own...VMSL then joined this year but it isn't the senior men's premier league they were envisioning.

That being said, NONE of the teams in VMSL are semi-pro ready. NONE. To create a league such as CSL or the new QC league...new teams will have to be formed. Likely created by the youth teams such as Surrey United or Metro Ford unless some investors come in (duh).

A nationwide u23 league is great...but who is going to fund it? Who is going to go watch it? No one goes to PDL....

How long of a season is a nationwide league going to be? Weather....I want it as badly as everyone else but but but!...

[ted]

A nationwide u23 league is great...

Huh!?!?

WTF does this have to do with the discussion in which we are engaged?

We are discussing NASL expansion in Canada.

[brettinhalifax]

Huh!?!?

WTF does this have to do with the discussion in which we are engaged?

We are discussing NASL expansion in Canada.

So, the political situation of Puerto Rico, demographics of Canadian cities, and the tar sands are acceptable topics in a NASL expansion thread, but a U23 league is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Interesting place to draw the line, but OK, you're the boss.