NASL expansion in Canada

[shermanator]

Petrone keeps talking about McMahon. IT WILL NOT WORK AT MCMAHON.

[Jason]

Petrone keeps talking about McMahon. IT WILL NOT WORK AT MCMAHON.

I have typically agreed that McMahon won't work, but I have been re-evaluating my position a bit. Orlando in USL Pro is playing at the Citrus Bowl and making it work. I realize that they are by far the exception with pro soccer in a too-big venue, but I think it shows it's theoretically possible if everything else is done right. And I so want a team back here, I'll take it in whatever form I can get. I think it's still a tough proposition.

What I'm more worried about in the article is the mentioning that McMahon has a lower deck with 15,000 and an upper deck of 15,000. Has he ever been to the stadium? It is a single deck structure and not like B.C. Place at all. Maybe you could tarp off the top seats but that's not how I interpreted what he said.

Jason

[youllneverwalkalone]

If Regina can spend $300-500m on a stadium, I can't fathom how McMahon is still standing?

[madmonte]

Petrone keeps talking about McMahon. IT WILL NOT WORK AT MCMAHON.

I agree that it might not work at McMahon. Where do you think the best option in Calgary is? There were some excellent ideas kicked around earlier.

Anyway, I think highly of Petrone at the moment for his efforts in all of this, I hope they get rewarded.

[shermanator]

I agree that it might not work at McMahon. Where do you think the best option in Calgary is? There were some excellent ideas kicked around earlier.

Anyway, I think highly of Petrone at the moment for his efforts in all of this, I hope they get rewarded.

I wrote up an article on the ESG site here with a couple potential options: http://edmontonsoccerfans.com/esg/?p=736. Another option is Hellard Field which is currently a stadium used for minor league pointy ball (similar to Clarke Park but with greater room to expand)

I still think Calgary Rugby Park is the best option if they can expand the parking, but I think i'm in the minority there.

[alberta white]

I wrote up an article on the ESG site here with a couple potential options: http://edmontonsoccerfans.com/esg/?p=736. Another option is Hellard Field which is currently a stadium used for minor league pointy ball (similar to Clarke Park but with greater room to expand)

I still think Calgary Rugby Park is the best option if they can expand the parking, but I think i'm in the minority there.

It has grass which puts it on the Plus Side. Add stands similar to those installed at Clarke and you have a cracking little stadium that also improves the Environs for Pushing the Rugger. Maybe a Canada USA game in time to come.

[Jason]

I agree that it might not work at McMahon. Where do you think the best option in Calgary is? There were some excellent ideas kicked around earlier.

Anyway, I think highly of Petrone at the moment for his efforts in all of this, I hope they get rewarded.

Here are the non-McMahon options that I'm aware of:

1) Foothills Athletic Park - next door to McMahon. Home of the PDL/A-League Storm from 2001-03. It has been renovated since then to accommodate the Canadian track and field nationals. Capacity is maybe 3000? No lights. Running track and you are really far away. Back in the Storm's days, the pitch was very narrow. Good location - lots of parking, close to mass transit. Scheduled to be demolished and replaced with a massive new fieldhouse whenever the city gets the money together.

2) Burns Stadium - baseball stadium next to McMahon. Has been pretty much vacant since the Vipers folded a couple years ago. Capacity about 7000. Good location. Minimal amenities - probably 20 years behind the curve in the world of minor pro sports - and no suites, club seating, etc. Could be renovated for soccer. The city owns it and said before they are not putting a dime into it for a new tenant. Now it is slated for demolition to make way for the new fieldhouse mentioned above.

3) Shouldice Park - the stadium field holds 3000. New facility primarily designed for football - turf with permanent lines. Soccer team do play there. Location is okay, not sure about transit or parking. Probably comparable to Clarke in Edmonton. Could be a temp home only.

4) Glenmore Park - capacity about 1000 with minimal expansion space. Minimal and outdated facilities - I remember having to go to the ice rink next door to go to the washroom as there were none at the field. PDL Storm Prospects played here one year when the A-League team was the primary club. Slated to be demolished and replaced with a new stadium in the same park - no time frame but years away. Wouldn't work.

5) SAIT field - capacity mimimal with little chance to expand. Turf field. Good location for transit, parking limited due to being on campus. Not feasible.

6) Calgary Rugby Park - capacity 2400. I don't know much about it, but natural grass field and presumably good facilities. Calgary's W-League team used if for one year. I've never been there as it's far from my house in an industrial area in the SE. I don't know about transit. I suppose it's a possibility but it's not really close to anyone. I would be really careful about this location - don't want to be in a situation like the NHL Coyotes with all of your potential fans are too geographically far away.

Jason

[madmonte]

SAIT field I don't think is all that feasible. I ate at that restaurant across from SAIT a few weeks ago before the flood and wandered over...the other ones I've only seen on googlemaps. Foothills athletic sounds very promising...especially that fieldhouse. I've said before about that fieldhouse that having winter options for training in Canada are at a premium, so this park should be amazing.

[shermanator]

Here are the non-McMahon options that I'm aware of:

1) Foothills Athletic Park - next door to McMahon. Home of the PDL/A-League Storm from 2001-03. It has been renovated since then to accommodate the Canadian track and field nationals. Capacity is maybe 3000? No lights. Running track and you are really far away. Back in the Storm's days, the pitch was very narrow. Good location - lots of parking, close to mass transit. Scheduled to be demolished and replaced with a massive new fieldhouse whenever the city gets the money together.

2) Burns Stadium - baseball stadium next to McMahon. Has been pretty much vacant since the Vipers folded a couple years ago. Capacity about 7000. Good location. Minimal amenities - probably 20 years behind the curve in the world of minor pro sports - and no suites, club seating, etc. Could be renovated for soccer. The city owns it and said before they are not putting a dime into it for a new tenant. Now it is slated for demolition to make way for the new fieldhouse mentioned above.

3) Shouldice Park - the stadium field holds 3000. New facility primarily designed for football - turf with permanent lines. Soccer team do play there. Location is okay, not sure about transit or parking. Probably comparable to Clarke in Edmonton. Could be a temp home only.

4) Glenmore Park - capacity about 1000 with minimal expansion space. Minimal and outdated facilities - I remember having to go to the ice rink next door to go to the washroom as there were none at the field. PDL Storm Prospects played here one year when the A-League team was the primary club. Slated to be demolished and replaced with a new stadium in the same park - no time frame but years away. Wouldn't work.

5) SAIT field - capacity mimimal with little chance to expand. Turf field. Good location for transit, parking limited due to being on campus. Not feasible.

6) Calgary Rugby Park - capacity 2400. I don't know much about it, but natural grass field and presumably good facilities. Calgary's W-League team used if for one year. I've never been there as it's far from my house in an industrial area in the SE. I don't know about transit. I suppose it's a possibility but it's not really close to anyone. I would be really careful about this location - don't want to be in a situation like the NHL Coyotes with all of your potential fans are too geographically far away.

Jason

This is a very good write-up of the options. Unfortunately, the best field for soccer (Calgary Rugby Park) is in the worst location, and the fields in the best locations (SAIT, Foothills) are not feasible right now.

Hellard (aka Shouldice) might be the best combination of the two, but there's no train line nearby, and none of the express routes go that way. Also, there are not many eating / drinking options nearby. Field would have to have non-permanent lines for this to be an okay option, and the option may not be the best long term.

Now that I read this, McMahon is starting to sound like the best option for everything but atmosphere...

[Oranje]

Great summary Jason. My brothers play Rugby (god bless 'em) and watching them play at Calgary Rugby Park the fact that it alienates 2/3s of Calgary with it's location puts it at the bottom of the list for me. There is another grass facility off of McKnight by the airport that they use, still a pain to get to via transit but it's more feasible than CRP. Ideal situation would be a retrofit of Burns with cash put up by the investors group. The way I see it is if the Calgary NASL dream is ever going to take off then the Flames ownership has to be involved. Just putting the Flames/Stampeders brand onto the club would attract a casual crowd and packages could be bundled at the beginning to build a casual base (Flames HC Season ticket holders get 50% off Flames/Stamps SC Seasons tickets etc.). If the ownership group ever decides to do something to McMahon it wouldn't be out of the question to keep going and tend to Burns, no?

[Jason]

I'll put up some replies later, but I wanted to mention one more option:

7) Mount Royal University soccer field - capacity maybe 500-1000. Grass field. Lights I think. No track. Pretty basic facility without even a fence around it but there is a lot of room for temp seating and addition of portapotties and concessions. Location is okay, good access to bus transit but not the train. Parking a bit limited being on campus but not as bad as most university campuses. Target market is relatively close by. It would require some $$$ and approval from the university, but not the worst option on the list.

Jason

[Footscray]

Rumor making the rounds among the Flames fan community is that the Flames are going to be announcing a hockey arena and outdoor stadium complex where the GM dealership/greyhound station are just west of downtown close to where Meewata stadium used to be. Purely just secondhand info at this point though.

It would make a ton of sense for the Flames ownership to start a soccer team to fill a few more dates in any new stadium. Nothing has ever given me the impression that Murray Edwards and the Flames ownership group (a number of other older oil guys) have any interest in investing in the sport though. The older generation in Canada who aren't immigrants often not only don't like soccer but often even disdain it no idea where Edwards stands though.

[DigzTFC]

Rumor making the rounds among the Flames fan community is that the Flames are going to be announcing a hockey arena and outdoor stadium complex where the GM dealership/greyhound station are just west of downtown close to where Meewata stadium used to be. Purely just secondhand info at this point though.

It would make a ton of sense for the Flames ownership to start a soccer team to fill a few more dates in any new stadium. Nothing has ever given me the impression that Murray Edwards and the Flames ownership group (a number of other older oil guys) have any interest in investing in the sport though. The older generation in Canada who aren't immigrants often not only don't like soccer but often even disdain it no idea where Edwards stands though.

Well Petrone said their were two owners looking for an NASL team. If the local one is the flames owner and they are looking to build a new stadium, hypothetically, it could be a good bit of business to have the foreign investors buy into the overall Flame properties and spread the risk across the other sports teams. The Flame owners get two things 1) An operator of the soccer team with experience (presumably) and 2) A source of secondary funds for stadiums ($25 Million personal wealth is required for each owner).

[alberta white]

I've noticed in the case of the YEG arena there has been significant opposition to the Municipality getting involved in building

Stadiums, even when the city feels it hands are tied and that a major sport complex can drive Downtown revitalization. One of the best comments been, "Hey Mandel why don't you find a Pothole to roof over? Plenty of them big enough to fit a hockey rink in!"

Conversely, Tom Fath spending his own money up front to start the re-develop of Clarke Field, went a long way to him not getting laughed out of the Council chamber when he took a proposal for a 10K stadium to the board a short while back. True a 10k will probably be a public facility but at a 10th the cost of the "Oil drop", those who were not inclined to champion stadium developments were a little less dismissive of the idea, particular as Fath's demeanor was more, "Can you help us out with this over the long haul?" rather than," Build Me an Arena or I'm having Coffee in Seattle in the Morning".

( I refer you back to the CBC's Irrelevant show, "Jason Appeals for a new home")

Is finding backers who are more inclined towards a European model of building their own facilities is possibly a better way to go? Also less chance of having the team threaten to up and leave every time the lease is due for renewal.

As DigzTFC noted the Principal Owner Must have a $25M personal wealth background but must also hold a 50%+ share this is to avoid multi ownership Community funded set ups, which had a habit of going T#TS-UP.

Point to note: the Additional seating at Clarke was quoted at $750K, which I think was for the big Blue 1700 seats on the east side. One could extrapolate that to $3million for 6800 seats but adding additional toilet facilities (drainage) concessions to an existing field even with Locker rooms $5million would be an absolute minimum.

Thing is to find a field where it can be done in stages, as support grows.

[DigzTFC]

Point to note: the Additional seating at Clarke was quoted at $750K, which I think was for the big Blue 1700 seats on the east side. One could extrapolate that to $3million for 6800 seats but adding additional toilet facilities (drainage) concessions to an existing field even with Locker rooms $5million would be an absolute minimum.

Thing is to find a field where it can be done in stages, as support grows.

Questions:

Is the idea to make it a soccer specific park after the installation of the new turf?

Are the stands in the middle of nowhere intended to be moved into the end zones?

How much football use actually occurs there?

To me it sounds like Fath has done more for the city and the city has done everything (without trying) to kill the club

- Building codes for the stands took forever

- Licensing the damn stands

- Giving an ultimatum on attendance without the damn stands in place and the stand cleared for use.

- No stadium assistance

I hope Fath has the wherewithal to see this out because the city is not helping at all for someone who's invested a tone. Plus, the money that should go to them for stadium during the WWC is going to the Edmonton Eskimos.

[Trillium]

When FIFA said they want 16-18 team first divisions England, Spain, and Italy already had 20 teams in theirs. They weren't going to ask those leagues to retract, and TV deals probably make that impossible. But they can say to MLS "we won't sanction a 22 team league" etc etc. Catch my drift?

Does FIFA sanction leagues or is it the National associations ? In the case of MLS there maybe a sanction because its an international league, but I somehow doubt it ... FIFA has little influence over leagues it has its international games and properties to make money.

[alberta white]

Does FIFA sanction leagues or is it the National associations ? In the case of MLS there maybe a sanction because its an international league, but I somehow doubt it ...FIFA has little influence over leagues it has its international games and properties to make money.

I would think FIFA has little influence over leagues, however how much it can lean on the USSF to put pressure on the League is probably the more relevant question.

[alberta white]

Questions:

Is the idea to make it a soccer specific park after the installation of the new turf?

Are the stands in the middle of nowhere intended to be moved into the end zones?

How much football use actually occurs there?

To me it sounds like Fath has done more for the city and the city has done everything (without trying) to kill the club

- Building codes for the stands took forever

- Licensing the damn stands

- Giving an ultimatum on attendance without the damn stands in place and the stand cleared for use.

- No stadium assistance

I hope Fath has the wherewithal to see this out because the city is not helping at all for someone who's invested a tone. Plus, the money that should go to them for stadium during the WWC is going to the Edmonton Eskimos.

By his own admission Fath's a tenacious character, not prone to giving up on anything.

He walked into the Soccer world a complete novice and got hooked, like a kid who get his first Soccer shirt in the Christmas mail.

As for the questions.

The Turf installations is "scheduled" for next year, but that does not mean it will happen yet (lots of potholes to fill). Saying that FC Edmonton were not operating when it was put down. Currently the city has, under the direction of the mayor, a feasibility underway to asses the Need and or location for a Soccer specific stadium. One option indicated in the brief was redevelopment of Clarke. It just so happens that the seating upgrade and the "potential" turf renewal coming so close together make it look like redevelopment as a 3xS is already underway.

As for the Football.

Pointy ball at the school level is surprisingly not well served in Edmonton (according to those who now). As it currently stands all the High school Finals are played there in the Fall. So the loss of Clarke as a Football Stadium would cause some concerns.

If something similar to Empire park could be developed at Clarke then I think FCE are on to a winner. Developing the club within the fabric of the city, intermixed with its current field sports, would be better than working against it. The fact that the club is progressing in spite of the Vogons in the city permits office, has seemed to engender it towards the populace. After three years there is less "Who" and "What", and more "Oh, the soccer team? well I don't really follow soccer, but good luck to them"

Personally, blue Sky thing would have me looking at developing a system of removable end Zones or under end zone seating that would push through as needed. but that's... for the future and beyond!

[Drillers81]

Point the first: There is only one D2 in North America, the NASL. The highest division in the USL system is USL Pro which is D3.

Point the second: I would love to agree with you about an "all-Canadian" D2 but financially it makes little sense and since the MLS model is working so well, including the cross-border nature of the league, I see no reason to start from scratch when the NASL could provide what we need. The only reason I can see trying to go it alone (assuming we can find the $$) is the quota on non-American teams in the league imposed by the USSF. If this is a truly cooperative effort between the CSA and the USSF then they should agree to a limit of 50% of non-American teams (including Puerto Rico as non-American).

Article 1.b.i. of the USSF's Professional League Standards, applicable to MLS, the NASL and USL-Pro: "At least 75 percent of the league's teams must be based in the United States." Regarding the Puerto Rico Islanders, as they are members of the Puerto Rican Football Federation, they are not considered a US-based team and therefore must be considered in the 25 percent that includes Canadian teams.

The only way the NASL can put a new team in Canada right now is if Puerto Rico (currently on a one-year leave of absence) does not return in 2014. Otherwise a four-team expansion is needed every time an additional team is sought for Canada (along with three in the US). An 18-team NASL would still only permit a maximum of four Canadian teams (if Puerto Rico is not in the picture) as 14 teams would have to be US-based to avoid dropping below 75 percent.

The NASL cannot drop below the 75 percent line without risking loss of sanctioning, which would open the door for USL-Pro to move up. As the CSA has already ruled out sanctioning Canadian teams in USL-Pro, this would be a major setback for Canadian soccer.

In reality, we have two options, feed on the crumbs the USSF give us, or start our own D2 league, something that the CSA has recently shown itself unwilling to embark upon. The bottom line: one, possibly two new teams in Canada for the NASL in the foreseeable future.

[Kurt-MTL]

I don't really think the whole 75% quota thing is going to be an issue. NASL seems to have an aggressive expansion strategy in mind and although this might seem like a pipe dream, I can see Canada having as many as 8 professional teams one day (3 MLS and 5 NASL). And even if the numbers weren't quite right, I could see the USSF making an allowance as opposed to pulling sanctioning; especially if the NASL were to be successful (why mess with a good thing).

To me the bigger problem is how Canadian players are viewed as "non-domestic". If by some miracle, the CSA could convince the USSF to reverse this decision, then we'd really be talking..

[DigzTFC]

Honestly, I actually see new teams coming into NASL for 5 years then Ottawa, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Calgary the joining an all Canadian league with TFC, VWC and MTL. It makes sense. The player pool of players would be derived from the U23 regional leagues. The major hurdle is MLS not allowing teams to own NASL teams. Maybe MLS could run the second division in Canada. It's the kind of operator the country needs to make it work. It would also need a partnership with CFL teams as the stadium upgrades across the country is a chance of a lifetime.

[Cooks]

We have to be honest. Every option that has been mentioned thus far, including McMahon, is a temporary option. Without an SSS, no long-term commitment will have been shown. If I hear that an SSS is on the way (with shovels at the ready), then I would put up with any of the temporary options.

The timeframes of other projects dictate which of the temp options are most feasible. A lot is hinging on the Field House at Foothills. Since it is the first step in the project, and would be built directly over the Foothills track and Burns Stadium, those options disappear very quickly. However, the two fields directly to the west of the track would remain untouched for a while (the plan to turn them into tennis courts is well down the road) and could be commandeered for an east-west stadium that would require lights and temp stands.

The fields at Shouldice are for pointy ball, but would work as a temporary fix. They have lights and stands could be added as needed. The two fields by the river were recently IN the river, but Hellard Field survived intact. Alas, transit is an issue for that location.

Mount Royal is a great little field. It has lights, decent parking options throughout, and the MRU campus is well-served by bussing (but who takes multiple busses to matches, really?). The problem is it is WIDE OPEN and would have to be completely surrounded by seating and fencing to make it a private facility.

I would add one of the fields at the University of Calgary as an option (perhaps Field 8 or 9). There are no lights, but it is served by the LRT, has lots of parking in nearby Lot 10, and could be wrapped with temp stands for an intimate feel.

As lovely as the CRU field is, it is WAY too far out to be feasible, and the turnout would be limited to die-hards, friends, and family. We know where that has gotten us. Otherwise, they could have just wrapped stands around one of the fields at the indoor soccer centre.

I can see Petrone's case for McMahon. It has everything in place: seating, concession, washrooms, lights, etc. But we know that it is impossible to build atmosphere there without tens of thousands of people. The Mustangs best attendance days there still looked pathetic and it was hard to build any excitement.

Building a mini 3000-5000 seat version of Empire Stadium would create the atmosphere necessary to generate a buzz and loyal fan base.

As we have been discussing for more than a decade...the big question is WHERE?

[Jason]

Rumor making the rounds among the Flames fan community is that the Flames are going to be announcing a hockey arena and outdoor stadium complex where the GM dealership/greyhound station are just west of downtown close to where Meewata stadium used to be. Purely just secondhand info at this point though.

It would make a ton of sense for the Flames ownership to start a soccer team to fill a few more dates in any new stadium. Nothing has ever given me the impression that Murray Edwards and the Flames ownership group (a number of other older oil guys) have any interest in investing in the sport though. The older generation in Canada who aren't immigrants often not only don't like soccer but often even disdain it no idea where Edwards stands though.

There has been talk of the Flames building this complex for a while but I don't think this is the group Petrone is talking about. He is referring to a 2014 start, and if this new complex happens it won't be open for a while. I could see the Flames being interested in soccer when the new stadium is ready, but just to run one more team out of McMahon (which they don't control like they do the Saddledome) for a few years in the interim doesn't seem like a big priority. I think it must be someone else but you never know.

Jason

[Jason]

We have to be honest. Every option that has been mentioned thus far, including McMahon, is a temporary option. Without an SSS, no long-term commitment will have been shown. If I hear that an SSS is on the way (with shovels at the ready), then I would put up with any of the temporary options.

The timeframes of other projects dictate which of the temp options are most feasible. A lot is hinging on the Field House at Foothills. Since it is the first step in the project, and would be built directly over the Foothills track and Burns Stadium, those options disappear very quickly. However, the two fields directly to the west of the track would remain untouched for a while (the plan to turn them into tennis courts is well down the road) and could be commandeered for an east-west stadium that would require lights and temp stands.

The fields at Shouldice are for pointy ball, but would work as a temporary fix. They have lights and stands could be added as needed. The two fields by the river were recently IN the river, but Hellard Field survived intact. Alas, transit is an issue for that location.

Mount Royal is a great little field. It has lights, decent parking options throughout, and the MRU campus is well-served by bussing (but who takes multiple busses to matches, really?). The problem is it is WIDE OPEN and would have to be completely surrounded by seating and fencing to make it a private facility.

I would add one of the fields at the University of Calgary as an option (perhaps Field 8 or 9). There are no lights, but it is served by the LRT, has lots of parking in nearby Lot 10, and could be wrapped with temp stands for an intimate feel.

As lovely as the CRU field is, it is WAY too far out to be feasible, and the turnout would be limited to die-hards, friends, and family. We know where that has gotten us. Otherwise, they could have just wrapped stands around one of the fields at the indoor soccer centre.

I can see Petrone's case for McMahon. It has everything in place: seating, concession, washrooms, lights, etc. But we know that it is impossible to build atmosphere there without tens of thousands of people. The Mustangs best attendance days there still looked pathetic and it was hard to build any excitement.

Building a mini 3000-5000 seat version of Empire Stadium would create the atmosphere necessary to generate a buzz and loyal fan base.

As we have been discussing for more than a decade...the big question is WHERE?

Totally agree - the ultimate answer is a SSS. However, Calgary is so far behind the rest of the country when it comes to building sports venues. Look at what Winnipeg has done with their arena, ballpark, football stadium, and even the Winnipeg Soccer Centre field. The new field house with seating for 10K could be an intriguing home but this is years away.

My preference would be to avoid huge McMahon if possible. If there is no atmosphere, there won't been any buzz. Mount Royal is an interesting idea. Putting a fence around it and adding some temp seats would be pretty easy. I'd even be open to going back to Foothills Athletic Park if the field fits and there are lights added. I cringe a bit at Shouldice - I just hate permanent football lines so much.

Jason

[Jason]

Great summary Jason. My brothers play Rugby (god bless 'em) and watching them play at Calgary Rugby Park the fact that it alienates 2/3s of Calgary with it's location puts it at the bottom of the list for me. There is another grass facility off of McKnight by the airport that they use, still a pain to get to via transit but it's more feasible than CRP. Ideal situation would be a retrofit of Burns with cash put up by the investors group. The way I see it is if the Calgary NASL dream is ever going to take off then the Flames ownership has to be involved. Just putting the Flames/Stampeders brand onto the club would attract a casual crowd and packages could be bundled at the beginning to build a casual base (Flames HC Season ticket holders get 50% off Flames/Stamps SC Seasons tickets etc.). If the ownership group ever decides to do something to McMahon it wouldn't be out of the question to keep going and tend to Burns, no?

I've heard about this McKnight/airport field before, but I don't know anything much about it. Could be a possibility but I agree the location and transit would not be ideal.

Jason