Canada U-23 - El Salvador U-23 Game Thread [R]

[nolando]

Very disappointing game... but (as we all too often have to say in Canadian soccer ) at least we got the draw.

This team (at least on paper) is much better than they displayed tonight. The problem for me is the coaching. The tactics, positional selections, substitutions, and especially the formation are what plagued this team tonight. The U-23s looked like a carbon copy of the national team, same problems exactly. We keep playing 4-5-1 with a mentality of "slow the game down" build from the back and hope for the best. The problem with this is that our teams have become over reliant on using the defence to start the attack. It takes the midfield out of the game. The team looked better towards the end when the midfielders were the ones starting the attack forward. The other problem with this formation is that for a team that sticks dogmatically to a lone striker format, we have no one that will cross the ball. In this formation we should be raining in crosses for the striker and attacking mids. In general our mens teams (under Hart's system) seem so afraid to make a defensive mistake that it is preventing them from attacking much at all. Just #$@%ing go for it! A teams defence will usually react well enough when the team is playing attacking football becuase the tempo of the game keeps them focused and performing athletically.

Is there anyone else on here that thinks that playing the ball back to the keeper as much as we do is becoming a major problem? It does nothing but pin us in our own half, stiffle the attack and keep the defence from playing the ball into saftey properly or passing the ball forward when they should be. How many times do the defenders just pass the ball back to the keeper when they could have passed the ball forward and started an attack? When the keeper hoofs the ball up the field it usually leads to a turn over anyway.

The most discouraging thing for me was REB's postgame interview. When they asked him about the USA game, he made it sound like all they were going to do was attempt to contain them and hope for the best. He made the team sound like they were already throwing in the towel.

I echo these sentiments and those of many on this board. In the fifteen years that I have been religiously following Canadian national sides I must have watched nearly the same match as last night about 20 or 30 times. Big guys up front who look dangerous but don't seem to be able to create or get appropriate service. Dangerous looking small guys up front that run themselves into corners but don't seem to use their wheels to their advantage. Poor linking coming up from the back, especially from the outside backs. Attacking center mids who can't (or won't) shoot a ball on target. Keepers with poor distribution who keep sides in contention despite being generally outplayed. Managers who make dubious substitutions regarding personnel, timing and tactics.

Sure, this team doesn't deserve as much scorn given what they are up against but I think they are bearing the brunt of many years of collective frustration about the program and the tactics in general.

[afun]

I echo these sentiments and those of many on this board. In the fifteen years that I have been religiously following Canadian national sides I must have watched nearly the same match as last night about 20 or 30 times. Big guys up front who look dangerous but don't seem to be able to create or get appropriate service. Dangerous looking small guys up front that run themselves into corners but don't seem to use their wheels to their advantage. Poor linking coming up from the back, especially from the outside backs. Attacking center mids who can't (or won't) shoot a ball on target. Keepers with poor distribution who keep sides in contention despite being generally outplayed. Managers who make dubious substitutions regarding personnel, timing and tactics.

Sure, this team doesn't deserve as much scorn given what they are up against but I think they are bearing the brunt of many years of collective frustration about the program and the tactics in general.

Seems to me we can churn out pretty good players; they can run fast, check hard. But first touch and soccer IQ seem to be severely lacking when compared to the opposition. I think the soccer IQ part could be partially remedied by good coaching and tactics but alas, it seems to be compounded by the coaching staff (at all levels).

[JOGAKANATA]

Seems to me we can churn out pretty good players; they can run fast, check hard. But first touch and soccer IQ seem to be severely lacking when compared to the opposition. I think the soccer IQ part could be partially remedied by good coaching and tactics but alas, it seems to be compounded by the coaching staff (at all levels).

Imo Csa has always had a history of not using or taking the best players in/to the major tournaments. playing some boring brand of football while having some the best attackers, and midfielders sit out or on the bench CSA has ruined to many careers with this garbage and it needs to stop........I rather lose with goals(attacking) then lose without them(defensive uncreateive garbage)

[hodgkiss]

maybe the formation is wrong??? i know we seem to all want a 4-3-3 but i think having haber up front to head balls either down or into the net is great. and maybe edwini bonsu should be right there beside him. speed and agility??? seems like it could be a good mixture.

i think the biggest challenge is wingers/attacking midfilders... there was almost non-existent service last night.

we have lots of holding midfielders - in fact almost our entire team is made up of them!

anyway, we need speedy guys down the wings and guys who can cross the ball and get past defenders to get a little flick on to our forwards. otherwise, it will be a very disappointing tournament.

[tmcmurph]

2) Why is it that El Salvador was "unlucky" not to score on their chances but our deficiencies, particularly on Saiko and El-Masri's chances, are due to not being skilled enough in the final third? Seems like there's a double standard there.

5) That ref was one of the best ones I've seen from Concacaf.

A2) Because they actually forced our keeper to make saves. Had he not the ball was in the net. Our defenders also blocked at least 2 that would be on net. Our 2 good chances went high and over. So did several of theirs but they did force saves way more than we did. 1 on 1 with the keeper and it doesn't go in is not so much unlucky on their part as it is great stops by our keeper. They had 4 or 5 chances on net and we had 2. Not a double standard, we just made life way too easy for their keeper.

A5) Agreed. Not only the ref but the side judges were correct on the offside calls. Well done game by the officiating staff. Let's hope that we see more of this out of CONCACAF.

[Macksam]

I recorded the game and just finished watching it. The first half was decent and Bekker and Alderson were pretty good. I think we can be much better next game if we move Tiebert and Stinson up from full backs to wide mid fielders, replacing James and Haworth in the process. Tiebert and Stinson are not natural full backs. They have a hard time doing basic jockeying and make other mistakes. When Straith comes back, Stinson can definately move up to right midfield. Replacing Tiebert and left back may be a slight problem.

A big problem with our players is they are not aggressive enough. The El Salvadorian players, who are smaller than our guys, were able to muscle us off the ball so easily while our guys were so timid and scared. This may be a confidence issues I guess.

[Keegan]

I recorded the game and just finished watching it. The first half was decent and Bekker and Alderson were pretty good. I think we can be much better next game if we move Tiebert and Stinson up from full backs to wide mid fielders, replacing James and Haworth in the process. Tiebert and Stinson are not natural full backs. They have a hard time doing basic jockeying and make other mistakes. When Straith comes back, Stinson can definately move up to right midfield. Replacing Tiebert and left back may be a slight problem.

A big problem with our players is they are not aggressive enough. The El Salvadorian players, who are smaller than our guys, were able to muscle us off the ball so easily while our guys were so timid and scared. This may be a confidence issues I guess.

Straith isn't coming, we are thin at the back and we have to deal with it. We could put Henry or Fresenga at RB but I don't know who we can slot in at LB.

[Lord Bob]

I don't think any of us were overconfident regarding our skill level relative to El Salvador. That's why we're so shocked by Fonseca's strategy: if we're not good enough to beat the United States then this was the most important game of the group and we should have been going balls-out to win it. Play our best players to death. Where we have less experienced guys like Stinson, Teibert, and Alderson, put them in the best position to succeed and ensure that you have some proper fullbacks at the beginning of ****ing training camp. (Alderson was put into his natural position and oh, look, surprise surprise he played very well.)

If we beat El Salvador, we could have lost to the US 15-0 and it wouldn't have made a difference, provided we didn't choke against Cuba. Instead, all of our remaining games will require us to play our absolute best and under the greatest pressure. Fonseca shouldn't have taken Saiko off and said "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day"; this was his Alamo.

If Fonseca really held back against El Salvador for the sake of the American game, he was like the guy who spends his paycheque on lottery tickets. The Americans are much older and significantly more skilled. It will take a miracle for us to get a point off them with this team, not because this is a bad class of players but because we're just too young. Again, none of this is a surprise to anybody. At a guess, Fonseca might have halved our chances of finishing second in the group for the sake of increasing our chances of finishing first by 5%. That's a good idea?!

EDIT: I decided to gush about the coaching in an article.

http://www.eightysixforever.com/2012/3/23/2897520/coaching-once-again-canadas-soccer-nemesis

[El Hombre]

I don't think any of us were overconfident regarding our skill level relative to El Salvador. That's why we're so shocked by Fonseca's strategy: if we're not good enough to beat the United States then this was the most important game of the group and we should have been going balls-out to win it. Play our best players to death. Where we have less experienced guys like Stinson, Teibert, and Alderson, put them in the best position to succeed and ensure that you have some proper fullbacks at the beginning of ****ing training camp. (Alderson was put into his natural position and oh, look, surprise surprise he played very well.)

Seriously? That's a recipe for disaster.

Running your best players into the ground not only puts you in a poor position for the next game, it also puts you in a position to give up a goal late in the game you are playing. Imagine what that El Salvador attack would've done with a dog tired Saiko in midfield. Remember, he's only in preseason right now.

Play an even game, use your subs wisely to keep fresh legs out there and come out of there with at least a point against a team that may actually be better than us.

If we beat El Salvador, we could have lost to the US 15-0 and it wouldn't have made a difference, provided we didn't choke against Cuba.

Unless El Salvador somehow gets beat by Cuba. Stranger things have happened in this tournament. Then that 15-0 scoreline isn't so good. If we can play solid defensively and keep it close against the US, then we'll be (somewhat) in control of our destiny going into the last game against Cuba.

If Fonseca really held back against El Salvador for the sake of the American game, he was like the guy who spends his paycheque on lottery tickets. The Americans are much older and significantly more skilled. It will take a miracle for us to get a point off them with this team, not because this is a bad class of players but because we're just too young. Again, none of this is a surprise to anybody. At a guess, Fonseca might have halved our chances of finishing second in the group for the sake of increasing our chances of finishing first by 5%. That's a good idea?!

Oi. So, you're saying that he should've played to win that game? Stop the presses. Wait a minute, why stop there: we should try to win every game. Someone get Stephen Hart on the phone! Is there time to update the Wellness to the World Cup Strategic Plan with this golden nugget?

I really hate being put into the position of being the Fonseca defender here because I don't think he has the tactical know-how especially when it comes to in-game adjustments, however what's being espoused here is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, Alderson and Saiko were playing decent games. Making them slog through 90 minutes against a potent and speedy El Salvador attack is a bad idea. Instead bring on fresh legs in midfield, especially REB who will be able to play box-to-box for 30 minutes. The worst thing that could happen to our chances is letting them score. We have the depth in midfield, so it makes sense that that is where our subs were.

Those substitutions have the added benefit of allowing us to use our top players again 48 hours later. We don't need to take a point off the US but we do need to keep it close. This group was always going to come down to goal differential for second place, so you need to make sure you don't give up much. Then, you also must have your top players ready to go 2 days after that.

[Lord Bob]

But neither Alderson nor Saiko were stumbling-around tired and in need of a tactical pulling-off. Saiko looked fine; Alderson looked better than fine. Edwini-Bonsu added a lot and should have come on (actually, he should have started) but bringing him in for Saiko was a weird idea.

Sure, Cuba could beat El Salvador (although I bet they won't). Maybe El Salvador will beat the Americans too, and then boy howdy does loading up against the Yanks look like a smart idea! However, you can only base your strategy off the balance of probabilities. And the balance of probabilities says a) United States will beat El Salvador, United States will beat Canada no matter what lineup we play, and c) Cuba is worse than everybody. With that in mind, the El Salvador game is the most important one and if we have to sit back, bunker a bit, and conserve energy in a 2-0 or even 3-0 loss to the Americans, so be it. I don't see how any of these assertions can be disagreed with.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't see how any of these assertions can be disagreed with.

[Keegan]

Things are going to get interesting here people, it would be wrong to assume that US and Mexico will both finish first in their groups. I'd say odds are they won't, one will for sure. I see the last day coming down to how many we can put by a depleted Cuba side vs. whether El Salvador can get a result against a US team that will presumably have clinched and rest players.

We are in a good position here, we got away with one and we have a second chance to get out of this group... lets take it! Also it looks like Fonsesca is focused on squad rotation here and he mentioned that ES looked to be using too much energy which he questioned. Hopefully that's true and he's not just covering his ass for a bad performance because that could help for sure.

[JOGAKANATA]

The bottom line is we shouldnt be playing the odds, we should be playing football and trying to win out.

The backline not touching that and midfield was decent but attack, from what I saw and know.

should look like.....no question.

............Haber............

El-mas...Saiko.....Reb

if your not playing like this in my view your wasting time and talents.

any other discussion to me is besides the point.

I know certain people have vested interest in certain players but this attack is the best thing for Canada U-23 atm

cheers!

enjoy the rest of the tournament.

[Lord Bob]

Things are going to get interesting here people, it would be wrong to assume that US and Mexico will both finish first in their groups. I'd say odds are they won't, one will for sure. I see the last day coming down to how many we can put by a depleted Cuba side vs. whether El Salvador can get a result against a US team that will presumably have clinched and rest players.

We need to distinguish between what is likely to happen and what is most likely to happen.

I agree with what I think you're saying: "there is less than a 50% chance that the United States will win Group A and Mexico will win Group B." However, that combination is still more likely than any other combination. Therefore, planning your overall strategy based off anything else is a mistake. If you can plan in such a way that you address every possible scenario then fantastic, do that! But in a short tournament that's not usually possible. Compromises must be made. As we're seeing.

[El Hombre]

But neither Alderson nor Saiko were stumbling-around tired and in need of a tactical pulling-off. Saiko looked fine; Alderson looked better than fine. Edwini-Bonsu added a lot and should have come on (actually, he should have started) but bringing him in for Saiko was a weird idea.

No, they weren't stumbling around. A good substitution is one that is made before that happens. Once you have players stumbling around, then you start giving up chances.

Sure, Cuba could beat El Salvador (although I bet they won't). Maybe El Salvador will beat the Americans too, and then boy howdy does loading up against the Yanks look like a smart idea! However, you can only base your strategy off the balance of probabilities. And the balance of probabilities says a) United States will beat El Salvador, United States will beat Canada no matter what lineup we play, and c) Cuba is worse than everybody. With that in mind, the El Salvador game is the most important one and if we have to sit back, bunker a bit, and conserve energy in a 2-0 or even 3-0 loss to the Americans, so be it. I don't see how any of these assertions can be disagreed with.

Yes, the El Salvador game was important. The fact that we came out with a 0-0 draw is pretty damn important too. Playing an all out run-and-gun attacking game is very dangerous. While it does have the potential of a very big payoff with a win, it also increases the chance of coming out of that game with a loss. Playing a wide open game against a team like El Salvador would only play to their strengths. No matter how much the pundits want to call this team "likely the most talented Canadian u23 team in history", the El Salvadorans may actually be better than us.

And I'm not sure if you are intentionally ignoring my point about the US game, but to repeat: we don't have to win against them nor should that be a realistic goal. The goal is to give up less goals than the El Salvadorans when they play the US. If we can snatch a goal on the counter and come out with a point, that would be much more than expected. If we can come out of the game with a 1-0 or 2-0 loss, that's most likely the best result against them than anyone else in the group will have.

[VPjr]

Bekker, I believe, is still owned by TFC;

no...he's not a TFC home grown player...he just happened to train with TFC last summer.

[youllneverwalkalone]

no...he's not a TFC home grown player...he just happened to train with TFC last summer.

I hope he continues to do well and gets drafted this year.

[Soccerpro]

How about putting the ridiculously fast and athletic Sodade and REB up front together?

Is anyone else scratching their head as to why we havent seen that pairing?

[JOGAKANATA]

How about putting the ridiculously fast and athletic Sodade and REB up front together?

Is anyone else scratching their head as to why we havent seen that pairing?

Because Canadian soccer is about bad losing politics.

[Max]

[Obinna]

Adu is very mediocre. Everyone knows that now. He actually hinders the U.S.'s possession style because every time he gets the ball, he has to "show off" his moves instead of passing to an open teammate.

I should have clarified my earlier post. The U.S. is missing its 2 best players in Sebastian Lletget and Josh Gatt (clubs wouldn't release them). The U.S. backline is also atrocious - a bunch of athletes that can't control or dribble. If the U.S. was at full strength then I would agree with you, they would probably beat Canada easily. But Canada has a very good shot at a draw with these two players missing. Good luck!

I hate the yanks as much as the next man, but you might want to give them more credit than that.

Firstly, I would hardly call Gatt there best player when you have players like Shea, Agudelo, Corona, and Mix in the squad. Secondly, I am not too familiar with their backline, but I do know Ike Opara and Perry Kitchen play there, and if I took off my voyageaurs glasses I would select them over Attakora and Stinson (defender?).

[maccaliam]

Shea, Agudelo, Corona, and Mix in the squad.

Sounds like a recipe

[Guest soccer1]

What is great is that all are saying we need a "midfield 'general'...",someone who can hold the ball and release it etc...Well we don't Have that and it is called...Andrew Kliment...Keep on the sh.t CSA it will cause you another tourney...

[Lord Bob]

Everybody take a shot.

[Guest soccer1]

A game like this would be investigated in UEFA for corruption...El Salvador operating on a shoe strink would take money NOT to go to the Olympics...