Soccer in general

[way2goeh]

I hope I have posted this in the right place.

Ive been a soccer fan since the day I tied my shoes. Ive even been fortunate to see Pele play in Vancouver. As I am a big Canada soccer fan, I watch these games and think to myself, this is BS!!! As a Canadian living in Brasil, I can tell you how daft you really must be to be a fan of phantom calls, olympic diving, paid off refs and no video replay to counter these acts. Then theres the bribes, riots, scandals, some games turn into absolute mayhem, killings, kidnappings, inadequate refs or even certain refs with a reputation ( a certain clown from Mexico comes to mind), and lastly rigged leagues.

First I will start with instant replays. I know soccer is a continuous game, but dont you think that a reversed call is the right call? Canada has been skrewed many a time. It happens everywhere, everyday. I think that a team has the right to stop the clock and have a call reviewed ONE time. That will eliminate BS red cards, diving in boxes or whatever like in the NFL. Also, all fouls be reviewed by the league or whatever to see if further penalties are assessed following the game. I think this is fair for all.

Second, I will start with rigged leagues. I was never in favour of salary cap. But it makes sense. Look at the EPL, a joke of a league. Great players, rigged league. Lets say Ipswich gets promoted to the Premier. In general, that team will be relegated within 2 years, if not, 1 year. Why? Money! You have teams like Man City, Man U, Chelsea who spend millions on players, but Ipswich can only get at best 1/10th of the talent because of money. Same thing with baseball, but thats proven not to always work. Like in other countries, same teams every year. Booooooooooooooooooooooooring. Thats what makes hockey and football, and even basketball this year better. Everyone has a chance. MLS is smart. I like to see the little fella make a splash once in a while! Seeing teams like Juventus, Corintians, Palmeiras and such get relegated is such a great laugh. In my opinion, all leagues SHOULD BE capped to make it fair for everyone. Man U, Real Madrid, Juventus, and other uncapped teams can go stuff it.

Riots, fires, killings and such. What happened to the good old days in which you ran onto the field and run around naked? A good laugh indeed. But soccer= violence. Its a joke. How many more people need to be killed (including stadium collapses) before someone does something about it? Every Wed and Sunday someone gets killed outside a stadium in Brasil. Especially when Santos, Palmeiras, Sao Paulo or Corinitians get together. In the US or Canada, soccer is a family outing. In Brasil, its only the hard core who come. If you are drunk, carrying a weapon and thinking about violence, youre a fan! Its not only here. I always see stuff in Greece, Italy and the list continues. Most stadiums outside of Europe and North America are bad shape. Also, is it only soccer and baseball players moms who get kidnapped all the time? Violence, unreal.

As for bribes, as long as theres gambling, then this will never stop. Scandals are not punished enough. Slap on the wrist, maybe a demotion and everyones happy.

Lastly, Sepp Blatter- gfy! This guy is a clown. He, like Al Davis, are similair as both have no FRACKIN clue what they are or was doing. Step down clown. Soccer is a mess. It aint his fault, but he hasnt done jack. Soccer= Violence........ enough said

[Free kick]

I feel exactly the same way. I think that you can trace everything back to FIFA. They are at the root of all that is wrong. The problem is that the sport is professinal and a business, but FIFA are setup and run as a political organization who looks at everything in a way you would when it was amateur (in setup) some seventy five years ago. And furthermore they (FIFA) carry on with no oversight and acounantability. When the **** hit the fan with Sepp Blatter and the voting scandal, i was hoping that that it all wouldnt die and ultimtely result on the blowing up of it all and that a new structure would emerge.

I was hoping that a structure would emerge along the lines of what you see in north american sports. That being, a franchise model where you buy your way in and have a comissioner or figure head with real power and clout to act in the best interest of the game. Sure its not perfect since it means player unions and strikes, franchise relocations, team tanking to get first round draft choices. But that stuff pales in comparaison to match fixing scandals, paying/ bribing off referrees, massive financial clout/inequities and the endless repetition of the same clubs winning every single year.

The sport's organization (FIFA) is utterly out of tune with the times and you see this by how inert it is in looking at technology to make the game better and fairer. You can also see how out touch it is in its failure to modernize the rules so that they keep up with realities of the games where there are milions of dollars at stake with every win or loss. Would it not be reasonable to reassess the rule regarding how penalties are awared? Why should a game be decided by an inoccuous play that just happens to occur in the box? It might be as simple as re writing the rule to allow more indirect or direct free kick for many of the fouls in the box rather than just putting the ball on the dot automatically.

But the biggest failure of the game and FiFA IMO is in regards to professionalizing the Job of the referrees. If we did in soccer like you see in North american pro leagues where referees are hireed by leagues, well paid, constantly assesed and evaluated, and graduate through various levels, you would easily alievate most of whats wrong with the sport of soccer today. A well paid FULL TIME professional referree, is much much harder to bribe and influence.

One of the things that really annoys me (not necessarily in forums like these, but moreso at fan gatherings at things like TFC functions or events), is when it hear people (usually its stupid kids) talking like they want to see this and that in MLS for no other reason than because: "Thats the way its done in europe". Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of things thats i dont like about MLS, but before one suggests improvemets, think about its consequence and what it means in the short and long term and the kind of game its leads to. Dont tell me, its good because thats the way they do it elsewhere.

[amacpher]

I was hoping that a structure would emerge along the lines of what you see in north american sports. That being, a franchise model where you buy your way in and have a comissioner or figure head with real power and clout to act in the best interest of the game. Sure its not perfect since it means player unions and strikes, franchise relocations, team tanking to get first round draft choices. But that stuff pales in comparaison to match fixing scandals, paying/ bribing off referrees, massive financial clout/inequities and the endless repetition of the same clubs winning every single year.

Ugh, no thanks! You have to also look at it from an athletes POV. There is much more opportunity to be a professional soccer player in the club model than a professional hockey, baseball or basketball player in North America. The franchise model is just a nice way to describe a cartel operation. ie create a shortage of supply to force a (fake) high demand, and thus, higher prices (which sucks for the fan).

Franchise model and parity - I don't see the connection. Why is it either/or? La Liga could easily have a more balanced TV revenue distribution, they just don't due to greed. Bundesliga proves you can have both.

It also doesn't help that most "soccer countries" are much smaller than the USA/North America. If North America just had New York, L.A. and a bunch of cities the size of Milwaukee, the World Series would just be L.A. v New York every year. So demographics is also a factor.

[amacpher]

First I will start with instant replays. I know soccer is a continuous game, but dont you think that a reversed call is the right call? Canada has been skrewed many a time. It happens everywhere, everyday. I think that a team has the right to stop the clock and have a call reviewed ONE time. That will eliminate BS red cards, diving in boxes or whatever like in the NFL. Also, all fouls be reviewed by the league or whatever to see if further penalties are assessed following the game. I think this is fair for all.

err.. even the NFL - which takes instant replays to the absurd level - doesn't review fouls. And there are way more fouls called in soccer than a typical NFL game.

I have no problem with replays in soccer if there was a workable way in which they could be introduced into the games. So far I haven't seen any such proposals though, except the idea to only review whether the ball entered the net or not - I can see that being applied in practice without stopping the game every minute. Only problem though is that it's kind of useless. Much ado about nothing. How often does a ball cross the goal line and not get called a goal? Once every 200 games maybe? If that.

meh... its frustrating when it happens, but I can live without something that would affect less than 1% of matches. It's just a game after all. So what if it's not called 100% perfectly? Does somebody die as a result?

[earlimus]

I was very happy to see this thread this morning, as I feel almost exactly the same as waytogoeh does. Allow me to elaborate:

I truly fell in love with the game around 5 years ago. When I moved here to Spain just over 3 years ago I thought that there was no where to go but up. I got season tickets for Zaragoza, found this website, and watched as many games as I could. Perfect, right?

3 years later, and I'm pretty much finished with soccer. I still love playing it (preferably not with Spanish people.... sorry but it's true), but everything about the game has lost so much value for me, the cons completely outweight any love I previously had.

I don't really need to go into too much detail(but I will) as waytogoeh really hits on all of the points, and I feel pretty much the same. I will however highlight a few personal experiences and perspectives.

TECHNOLOGY: It's a joke really. The utter refusal to introduce it is laughable. "oh we can't do it because... blah blah" BS. Case in point, spanish soccer (all soccer really) is all about not the highlights of matches, technique, or great goals, but by the controversy. It's all anyone talks about. "That wasn't offside, not a goal, should have been a red, that ball went out of bounds, etc". You all wouldn't believe the amount of BS that pervades every aspect of the media here after a Clasico (Barca-Madrid). It's all about the BS. What calls were wrong. Not how was the game?

THE MONEY: Another joke. What the hell is the definition of sport anyhow? Competition? Barca vs. Zaragoza is a competition? Seriously? That's fun? Interesting? I don't really even need to go into this. Leagues need some form of equality. Otherwise, it's boring, predictable, BS. Want boxing to be like soccer? Take the leading world heavyweight and put him up against, oh I don't know... Justin Bieber. Stupid comparison? Go check out Barcelona and Zaragoza's starting lineups.

VIOLENCE: Again, waytogoeh really hits the nail here, but I'll again take a look from a spanish perspective. I went to just about every game for two seasons, and I've attended games at the Bernabeau, Andfield, and Hampden Park. Make no mistake, racism and fear rule in every european soccer stadium, but I'll keep it specific. Week after week, in every single spanish stadium, there is racism. Without exception. Sometimes it's worse than others, but it's ALWAYS there. I dare anyone to challenge me on that. Fans (and I mean a LOT of them, sometimes thousands and thousands/majority) scream MONO (monkey, or the N-Bomb in Spain, still widely used btw.) at any black player if he so much as farts. I remember wanting to knock out everyone in my general vicinity when almost the entire stadium screamed it at Marcelo after he tackled Eliseu in a Zaragoza-Madrid game. The icing on the cake... they're BOTH black.

It goes so much deeper. I remember 4 teenagers (maybe 15 years old) having to be escorted out by the spanish "police" (term used loosely) after cheering for a goal by the visiting team. That's in Zaragoza, in a "family" part of the stadium, against Racing, not a rival or enemy team even. Women and old men being surrounded and screamed at if they support Madrid or Barcelona when they're in town, and we inevitably get scored on. Men taking their 7 year old sons to the stadium to give the finger to the visiting fans, and calling them names that would be blocked on this forum if it recognized spanish. You call that passion? Love? Respect? Integrity? Get a ****ing grip.

SCANDAL: The game is covered in it. Google Declan Hill. Look at how many players in the top leagues don't get paid. Look at Fifa. Look at Jose Mourinho pooking a man in the eye from behind and getting a one match ban. Look at everything about the game in countries like Spain. It's pathetic. I watched Zaragoza survive relagation last year in the final game because Levante didn't even try. They didn't even try. Why would they, when they're been paid, and they're already safe.

DIVING: This for me, this is just too much. I could have lived with most of the things in this rant because I loved the game. But the diving? And here in Spain, it's sooooo bad. It's pathetic. Call me ignorant, north american, biased. I don't give a ****. It's pathetic. And it's as an important part of this pathetic sport as free kicks, dribbling, or celebrating a goal. Nuff said.

This part is hard to write, because I do truly love Spain (it man not sound like it, but I do), and I respect other cultures, but so much of the time (NO, not always), I absolutely hate playing soccer with spaniards (NO, not all of them). It's part of the culture here to bitch, complain, whine, and debate at serious lengths any time anything happens. In a beer league (I played for two years), in the park, at school, and you bet your ass in every single competitive match no matter what the age group is, they stop the game and start arguing. Spanish style (ie. all at once, using their arms to try achieve some sort of flight). We all did it when we were young. That debateable "goal" in your neighborhood street hockey game, that out of bounds ball when you're trying to beat your friend at tennis. We all still do it sometimes, but I doubt that many of you have truely seen the extent of which it is part of the fabric of this country. It's too much to bear.

What's more, the racism in the kids games. I attended a game of my young brother in law when a french school was in town to play his team. We're talking 12 year old kids here. The french team was very multi-ethnic, and as soon as they started winning, the fathers of our boys were screaming racist things like you wouldn't believe. Swearing at them for being black, brown, muslim. I'm not exaggerating. These are well-to-do fathers of kids in an expensive private school mind you. This goes on at any hockey rink in Ontario? BS it does. Not like this.

So that's about it. I don't think that we're perfect in Canada/America, that corruption, racism, inequality (see baseball), and problems exsist in every sport. They do. But not like this. The state of soccer is quite pathetic, but I really think that at least the MLS IS headed in the right direction. Salary caps (there are many different types and ways to implement them) create actual sports leagues. Yes, they come with their own problems, but again, it's way better than what passes for competition in Europe and South American soccer leagues. Implemented saftey in stadiums actually creates a fun day, somewhere I'd actually go with my wife and kids.

Racism is inexcusable, and while it happens EVERYWHERE, at least in Canada we do something about it. Something more than putting the world "respect" near our logo. You can't take it lying down.

If I have kids here, I sure as hell won't watch my son holding his face and faking/lying/cheating just to get an advantage. Where I come from, you get your ass kicked for that. In soccer, you get a free kick.

I haven't really posted anything in months, but I wish all the best for all of you guys and I hope that Canada, the three Canadian teams, all do well. There's some great passion and love in this group, and most of the time, from what I see, some actual respect. I'll always support Canada in sports and when I'm home I usually check out a TFC game, but for the most part.... I'm done.

I also accept that many of you will disagree with some of what I've said, but before you go crazy, look at my points, and ask yourself, do you really disagree? I'm not saying that any of you should stop loving the game like I have, but seriously, there's some nasty and pathetic stuff that comes along with it.

[amacpher]

I'm not saying that any of you should stop loving the game like I have, but seriously, there's some nasty and pathetic stuff that comes along with it.

True. But also true for every sport. I guess when you grow-up with a sport you just get used to it easily. Like fighting in hockey or how 50% of the conversation around baseball is about drugs or the refusal for NCAA football to decide a championship on the field rather than with a vote/poll, etc.

The racism thing obviously has to be location-dependent. With all due respect, I don't see how that belongs in this thread.

Bilbao scored an offside goal against Man United last night and not a peep was said about it. All discussions were about what a great match it was. Sure if Mourinho was Man United's manager, the clubs and fans would be engaged in a bitter exchange of heated words right now, but that is more the exception than the rule. So again, I don't get how lack of technology is such a deal breaker here. No sport used instant replays not too long ago.

[alberta white]

Agree about the racism thing. Whole big can of worms that deserves its on thread. One which can no doubt rival the ASA dispute in length and complexity.

As for Technology. I dont mind.

FIFA claim they want the game the same at all levels. Well thats poppycock quite frankly!

My boys indoor community game is in no way compareable to El Classico or a Manchester / Merseyside derby.

It's a herring of the highest iron content

I dont think you see a gazzillion line judges at every Challenger tennis tornament and below do you. No Hawkeye there I bet.

If you look at the way Rugby League uses it technology NRL and Euro Superleague for Example. It calls contentious tries back at the point of the Try scoring carry. (Ball handed off after the final tackel before the try has been scored) The TV ref can determine if the ball is placed correctly in the scoring movement, wether he has been held up, of if an infringement has occured in the play.

They do not use this system in the division below as the games are not on the whole televised. all games in superleague have the technology in the ground to do so. So they use the system.

Okay now for Soccer.

All games in the EPL are televised as in the above so there is asysytem in place. Ref can easily draw back a contentios discion:

A. when the ball goes dead on the goal line.

If the defence feels agreived Offside handball etc then a quick buzzin the refs ear calls it back.

Similar, the attack can call back a call for over the line.

B. When a foul leaves a player on the deck (and yes we know the genuine ones)

Quite frankly if Carlos Kickaball is rolling around in agony it takes three seconds for the Ref to get a buzz for Him/her upstairs to say he's faking it ...book him! or if he is hurt Book the asailent.

If a goal is claimed offside it takes a minute for the TV ref to take play back to the last incursion point outside the box.

and thats with the technology we have now.

[amacpher]

I will add that the "money" issue is a deal-breaker for me. I just can't watch La Liga games anymore even though I consider myself a Barca fan.

Fortunately there are leagues with lots of parity. More than say ML baseball or NBA. Examples: French Ligue 1, Brazilian league, Argie league, Mexican league, Copa Libertadores. And that's just among the top 10-12 leagues/competitions in the world. So plenty of choice there.

I get that one of our posters in this thread is from Spain, so the money issue may really affect his love of the game. Not easy to follow the Brazilian league from Spain I imagine. But sitting in North/South America and complaining about lack of parity is kind of like saying "I won't follow hockey anymore because the Russian hockey league has no parity " (while living in NHL territory).

[Eh?]

Am surprised that the issues in countries such as Poland have not been touched on. You want to talk about Racism/violence in football then just read up about the Krawkow Derby.

Part of the problem in world football boils down to in alot of leagues the Ultras or the, in general, hardcore supporters are the sole reason the club exists. If one day the world decided to come together and kick all the nasty stuff out of football alot of clubs/leagues would be gone. I am not by any means saying this justify's the action of any of people involved but its the main reason of why its allowed to persist in so many countries.

As for technology and replays in football....I am not a fan. When I watch NFL, NHL now the stop go nature irritates me more than anything. With Fifa and the like looking to get technology in I just hope its seemless and does not begin to make the game slow down.... Sure there are goals that arnt counted as they were missed (Today in the EPL is a prime example) but as much as you might cringe, "Its part of the game". I will agree there is no reason why the league should not be reviewing dives after a match. If its a blatant dive whether it changed the course of the match or not it should be reviewed and the person fined or match banned for it. That will start to bring down the diving thath as plagued the sport.....

The EPL is ruined by money..... simples. As are any league that qualifies for the CL

[amacpher]

I don't follow the NHL in detail anymore, but do they review dives in NHL games? I know they definitely don't do it during the games, but what about after?

[afun]

I don't follow the NHL in detail anymore, but do they review dives in NHL games? I know they definitely don't do it during the games, but what about after?

The NHL reviews dives after the game. Frequent divers will be watched and penalized more carefully.

Back to the thread topic.

Soccer is so popular in spite of the problems and the rules of the game. It could be so much better. I just can't handle it when there are typically 2 or 3 really good scoring chances in a game and usually at least 1 of them are incorrectly called offside. Or when there isn't even a scoring chance but there is a handball in the corner of the box, then you basically get a free goal. There's just an inherent injustice to it all. The punishment should fit the crime.

The rules of the game have definitely not caught up with how the game has developed (read cheating/diving) nor the times in which we live.

[alberta white]

Alot is simply bad quality reffing.

Currently in the UK the buzz is over Sian Massey, the first Female official in the EPL. She is consistenly called upon to make tough calls, is dragged through the Pudit zone by all and sundry. So far she has not got a single one wrong and got rid of two misogynistic dinosaurs in the process.

This however was a bit harsh ...

....but funny!

[amacpher]

The punishment should fit the crime.

When it comes to a standard foul (ie one outside the box), I think soccer punishments "fits the crime" better than any sport I can think of. And I'm not just saying that because its my favorite sport. I mean, think about it - the fouled team gets the ball right exactly (in theory) where they would have had the ball if the foul didn't happen. And the yellow, red card rule prevents you from intentional, excessive fouling just to slow the game down. What could be better justice than that?

Compare to hockey, where if you hold a guy 100 feet from goal it somehow equates to the other team peppering your goalkeeper for 2 minutes (and 20-25% chance for a goal). Totally unfitting to the crime.

Rugby punishments are awful too IMO. Although I do wish soccer would adopt their clock handling (stop the clock for injuries rather than guessing the amount of extra-time at the end of each half).

[alberta white]

I always lked rugby decent rule. give the ref the trouble and you lose 10 yards.

strange though, that when it was trialed about 10 years ag,o refs never put 10 yards on Roy 'Eat yer head" Keen.

[afun]

When it comes to a standard foul (ie one outside the box), I think soccer punishments "fits the crime" better than any sport I can think of. And I'm not just saying that because its my favorite sport. I mean, think about it - the fouled team gets the ball right exactly (in theory) where they would have had the ball if the foul didn't happen. And the yellow, red card rule prevents you from intentional, excessive fouling just to slow the game down. What could be better justice than that?

Compare to hockey, where if you hold a guy 100 feet from goal it somehow equates to the other team peppering your goalkeeper for 2 minutes (and 20-25% chance for a goal). Totally unfitting to the crime.

Rugby punishments are awful too IMO. Although I do wish soccer would adopt their clock handling (stop the clock for injuries rather than guessing the amount of extra-time at the end of each half).

I guess we disagree. I often see a foul on the keeper during corner kicks. Never does the ref play an advantage there. If the keeper catches the ball and tries to get the play going he is stopped and told to put the ball back on the pitch where he caught it and then kick it from the ground. The team that got fouled also gets punished by the rules!

[amacpher]

I always lked rugby decent rule. give the ref the trouble and you lose 10 yards.

strange though, that when it was trialed about 10 years ag,o refs never put 10 yards on Roy 'Eat yer head" Keen.

Yeah, the part I don't like is the penalty which inevitably leads to a open kick for 3 points. It's a bit similar to the soccer penalty kick, except in rugby it accounts for a ridiculously high proportion of the scoring plays, especially in matches involving 2 fairly even teams. Using the 2011 World Cup as an example, 14 out of the 25 scoring plays in the semifinals, 3rd place match and final were from penalty kicks.

[alberta white]

As an old glove wearer I have to admit that they are over protected these days.

When I were a lad you could get away with almost anything on the keeper. Elbows from the back , standing on his hands, administering anthrax..etc

[Gordon]

As an old glove wearer I have to admit that they are over protected these days.

When I were a lad you could get away with almost anything on the keeper. Elbows from the back , standing on his hands, administering anthrax..etc

Worked the other way though too. A keeper calling "mine" was effectively announcing the changing the laws of the game to those of roller derby.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Shouting "keeper's ball" surely? Shouting "mine" can actually be against the rules in certain scenarios where it causes confusion so when the game is played at a competitive level soccer players tend to always use their own name or shout "keeper" to remove any danger of the ref taking exception to it. Hockey types tend to be surprised when they hear people use their own name like that during a soccer game, in my experience, and also by how much advice soccer players shout to each other during games.

[alberta white]

I always called "Keepers ball".

Thought, It didn't stop "numb-nuts the centreback" from trying to kick it out of my hands! on more than one occasion.

[Free kick]

Ugh, no thanks! You have to also look at it from an athletes POV. There is much more opportunity to be a professional soccer player in the club model than a professional hockey, baseball or basketball player in North America. The franchise model is just a nice way to describe a cartel operation. ie create a shortage of supply to force a (fake) high demand, and thus, higher prices (which sucks for the fan).

or.

How? I really dont see how there is more opportunity to be professional soccer player in club model than with a franchise model. There are some 750 individuals who make a living as NHL players. Then there are similar numbers who make a living playing in the AHL. Given that the pool of countries (maybe six countries that produce 99 percent of the players) who play hockey is miniscule compared to soccer, how does that prove your argument. I could make similar case for baseball and grid iron football. So how does that prove that there is more opportunity in soccer than hockey. Unless you want to count the Rushden and Diamonds of the world. but how many of those lower divisions around the world are no different than the USL in terms of revenue generation and salaries? Do you consider USL or similar opportunities as professional? Most usl players needed an alternative source of income to make living. Such as professional part time career outside of soccer, playing indoor in the winter, or running camps for kids.

I think that your second argument is complete BS as well. "Supply and demand of what?". Players? Or tickets? Tickets prices are driven by supply and demand. How is that different from from country to another or continent to another. Unless you are referring to a centrally planned or communist country.

Check any list of the top 100 or whatever paid athletes around the world and see how many check in on that list who play professionally for a franchise? And very sizable sum, i would say. How is that some these very regional and very low participation (worldwide) sports can pay a majority of their athletes a million dollars a year? I was in europe last fall and saw for myself some of these second divsion stadiums and let me tell you, they would be considered dumps by MLS standards. Only a very tiny group of those clubs are well capitalized and finacially backed. Yes, they (some 10-20 of them) check in as the largest in world as far as valautions but, in truth that was built through branding. 100 years of history has a lot to do with that.

[Free kick]

Regarding dives. Its almost impossible now to deal with now because, more and more, its not about diving and not diving but rather the attaching player creating the foul or orchestrating the situation that caused the foul. That bugs me. The ref has to call it but is it right that a player purposely created the situation that caused a foul?

The intent and purpose of it all was that you try to score or create goal but if you are impeded due to a foul then a penalty is called. But if you look to run into the guys legs purposely, why should you get a gift goal.

One might argue that that happens in basketball. But in basketball a couple of free thows dont change a game like PK goal does in soccer.

[amacpher]

How? I really dont see how there is more opportunity to be professional soccer player in club model than with a franchise model. There are some 750 individuals who make a living as NHL players. Then there are similar numbers who make a living playing in the AHL. Given that the pool of countries (maybe six countries that produce 99 percent of the players) who play hockey is miniscule compared to soccer, how does that prove your argument. I could make similar case for baseball and grid iron football.

Well a League Two salary in England averages $200k/year. England has about 100 professional teams at that level or higher or 2300 players . Projecting to a country the size of the US would give 600 teams! But there are only 30 MLB teams, which is pretty much where you have to be to earn 6-figure salaries (I know there are some opportunities for good American baseball players to go to Japan, but then we're still talking only... what, 40-50 teams? We're never getting to 600. ).

I think that your second argument is complete BS as well. "Supply and demand of what?". Players? Or tickets? Tickets prices are driven by supply and demand. How is that different from from country to another or continent to another. Unless you are referring to a centrally planned or communist country.

I'm referring to supply of tickets. The cartel system creates a false shortage of supply. If it was a free-market enterprise, you'd see 4-6 basketball teams in New York just like football is in London. There is over-flowing demand currently!

In cities that are small enough/demand is low enough such that an entire city warrants one team, ticket prices are generally quite reasonable (e.g. Toronto Blue Jays, New Jersey Nets, Columbus Blue Jackets). But in big cities that are large enough to support 2-6 teams, yet only have one due to the cartel operation blocking new organizations from opening up (and creating jobs), the ticket prices are outrageous due to artificial supply. e.g. Yankees, Knicks, Leafs. The average Knicks ticket price is well over $200! Who can afford to take their kids at that rate? Yup, only the richest 1% which is okay because only 1% of their local fan base fits into the stadium anyway. A city with population of some 12 million where basketball is the most popular sport (during the time of year it is played) can easily support more than one team.

It will get a bit better next year with Brooklyn getting an NBA team. Long overdue.

Check any list of the top 100 or whatever paid athletes around the world and see how many check in on that list who play professionally for a franchise? And very sizable sum, i would say. How is that some these very regional and very low participation (worldwide) sports can pay a majority of their athletes a million dollars a year? I was in europe last fall and saw for myself some of these second divsion stadiums and let me tell you, they would be considered dumps by MLS standards. Only a very tiny group of those clubs are well capitalized and finacially backed. Yes, they (some 10-20 of them) check in as the largest in world as far as valautions but, in truth that was built through branding. 100 years of history has a lot to do with that.

Right. That's a different argument.

[The Ref]

This thread being Soccer in General, I hope it is a fit for this game. The U.S. U20 men is in Chile for a game against the Chilean U20 on Tuesday 12th at 19:00hrs local time. The U.S. squad is coached by Tab Ramos.

[amacpher]

Must admit I thought about this thread when the New York Mets got there first no hitter in their history..... Except it wasn't a no-hitter. They allowed a hit down the line which was ruled foul!! Lol.