beachesl Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16996567 However, if I was a LFC fan I would be embarrassed at that total jerk Dogleash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGuire Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think SAF oughta keep his whiskey nose out of this. Does he not forget his club's history?? How about Roy Keane & Patrick Viera? I love Keano, being a RoI supporter & all, but he picked a fight w/ Viera in the tunnel before a match & refused to shake his hand, as did Paul Scholes too. And lest we forget Eric Cantona going all Street Fighter on that Crystal Palace fan. Hypocrisy thy name is Fergie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 How about you neverwalkalone and other LC apologists, any more bs to fertilize this forum with? Any of you actually going to express your disgust with daglish and suarez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brethers Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I agree on the Fergie hypocrisy, and to be fair if someone called me a racist and I had a very strong feeling that I wasn't (as Suarez has been throughout the whole thing) I wouldn't want to shake that guy's hand. But I want to clarify I am not defending anyone, just pointing out as to why Suarez didn't want to shake his hand. I think Liverpool have handled the whole situation poorly though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I agree on the Fergie hypocrisy, and to be fair if someone called me a racist and I had a very strong feeling that I wasn't (as Suarez has been throughout the whole thing) I wouldn't want to shake that guy's hand. But I want to clarify I am not defending anyone, just pointing out as to why Suarez didn't want to shake his hand. I think Liverpool have handled the whole situation poorly though I am fairly neutral in this considering I dislike both teams! However, I don't think Suarez has much ground to stand on in this. It is true that in many languages including Spanish negro or similar terms simply refer to the color black and can be applied to people without being offensive, indeed even the term nigger was not originally offensive in English until it became so from usage. It is also possible that Suarez might not be aware of the terms connotation in English since he has not played in England for very long. However, what basis could there be for Suarez to continually refer to Evra repeatedly as black during a soccer game even using a non-insulting term for it other than to use it as an insult? If I am describing a person and say that he is a black guy in English that is perfectly acceptable. If I am in a heated soccer match and saying, "Hey, black guy." repeatedly that is obviously meant to be insulting. Even giving Suarez the benefit of the doubt, if he thought his comments were misconstrued as racist, he should have publicly apologized to Evra. Yes he gave a general public statement that he did not use the term in a derogatory manner but if he was really misunderstood he should have apologized to Evra even if he strongly dislikes him. Failure to do so completely harms his credibility in claiming his comments were not racist insults. Failure to shake Evra's hand especially when Evra offered it to him hurts his credibility even more. At the very least Suarez has shown himself to be a completely classless individual. Fergie is right about this although I would not go to far as to ban Suarez completely from English soccer but another suspension might be in order. Evra at the very least should probably get a fine as well for what he did at the end of the game (even though I can completely understand it given the emotions involved). Whether Fergie is a hypocrite concerning other incidents that involved ManU is immaterial to this incident. Nevertheless, mentioning incidents involving players on his club does not prove he is a hypocrite, you would have to quote his reactions to these incidents. He was critical of Evra's actions at the end of the game so possibly he was critical of his own players in the incidents mentioned as well. I can't be bothered to look up his comments at the time but if someone is going to claim he is hypocritical they should find some of his statements to support their claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 ^ IIRC Manchester United, and thus obviously with Ferguson's approval, suspended Cantona before the English FA had handed out any form of punishment, so not only does bringing Cantona up have nothing to do with this incident of a disgraceful LFC and Suarez, it contradicts any talk of hypocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I guess the frustrating thing about all of this (and what prompted me to comment, (tho i admit it was oveblown) is that Suarez cannot legally be punished,nor can Evra for the disgraceful celebration. As I understand it, unsportsmanliike conduct can only really be punished during the time the match is actually being played. I cannot believe this whole thing has not been wrapped up long ago by LFC being a lot more professional frrom the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Sir Alex can be pretty biased in his assessments, he wears some pretty big blinders when he watches the matches sometimes, but I think he's he's got it about right. Suarez may feel hard done by, but he can take that up with the jury-of-his peers which seen the mater differently, not Evra. Suarez is an idiot. If Dagliesh puts up with it he's worse. P.S. I, like many others, don't give any weight on the cultural differences argument which was pitched around to explain Suarez's antics in the original event. If you're playing in England and you remain ignorant of what English cultural deems as acceptable and unacceptable conduct in their footballing don't complain when you learn a lesson in local cultural awareness the hard way. http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,18305_7505744,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brethers Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Suarez, Dalglish and the Liverpool MD have all apologised today. That should be that, they have acknowledged their actions were wrong and have apologised for it. This is way too late for an apology and change of behaviour, but better late than never I suppose. Unfortunately there have been lots of racially charged incidents happening in the UK recently, something needs to be done. More fines/suspenions might dissuade players but they actually need to make footballers aware that it is a criminal offence and something should be done which allows them to not be above the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I work with someone from Uruguay. She says calling people by their skin colour is generally a sign of affection. She stated the capital is more multi-cultural than Vancouver. An example is the husband can be heard coming home and calling "I'm home negrita." HOWEVER, she said it's all in the intent, and can certainly have racial undertones depending on delivery. And Suarez was defo being racist when he (I don't have confirmation of this) said "I kicked you because you are black." And repeated etc whatever else he said. Suarez should also know better having lived in Europe for so long and of course having black teammates over his career! yeesh. Suarez and Dalglish are massive wankers. Also re: Fergie putting "his nose" in it - he was asked the question. And his response was fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I am fairly neutral in this considering I dislike both teams! However, I don't think Suarez has much ground to stand on in this. It is true that in many languages including Spanish negro or similar terms simply refer to the color black and can be applied to people without being offensive, indeed even the term nigger was not originally offensive in English until it became so from usage. It is also possible that Suarez might not be aware of the terms connotation in English since he has not played in England for very long. However, what basis could there be for Suarez to continually refer to Evra repeatedly as black during a soccer game even using a non-insulting term for it other than to use it as an insult? If I am describing a person and say that he is a black guy in English that is perfectly acceptable. If I am in a heated soccer match and saying, "Hey, black guy." repeatedly that is obviously meant to be insulting. Even giving Suarez the benefit of the doubt, if he thought his comments were misconstrued as racist, he should have publicly apologized to Evra. Yes he gave a general public statement that he did not use the term in a derogatory manner but if he was really misunderstood he should have apologized to Evra even if he strongly dislikes him. Failure to do so completely harms his credibility in claiming his comments were not racist insults. Failure to shake Evra's hand especially when Evra offered it to him hurts his credibility even more. At the very least Suarez has shown himself to be a completely classless individual. Fergie is right about this although I would not go to far as to ban Suarez completely from English soccer but another suspension might be in order. Evra at the very least should probably get a fine as well for what he did at the end of the game (even though I can completely understand it given the emotions involved). Whether Fergie is a hypocrite concerning other incidents that involved ManU is immaterial to this incident. Nevertheless, mentioning incidents involving players on his club does not prove he is a hypocrite, you would have to quote his reactions to these incidents. He was critical of Evra's actions at the end of the game so possibly he was critical of his own players in the incidents mentioned as well. I can't be bothered to look up his comments at the time but if someone is going to claim he is hypocritical they should find some of his statements to support their claim. Gotta agree with most of this and I'm a Liverpool supporter. Regardless of whether or not he felt like he wasn't being racist and regardless if his intent really was racist, he could have taken the high road and he would have improved the optics of the situation dramatically. Hell, a shake of the hand and an apology would have made him look like a hero, but instead he came off looking like a complete tool. Although today's published apologies will diffuse the situation a bit, Suarez is building such a backlog of poor character performances, it is only a matter of time before the next incident comes up and the media/fans/people start saying 'Remember when he also ...' Secondly, Dalgliesh came off looking like a complete fool in the post-match interview as well. Can't the man think on his feet? He could have moved the interview on simply by saying 'I didn't see the incident and I don't want to comment until I see video on the situation and confer with my player. Then if we think we need to take action we will.' Instead he tried to play dumb and came off looking like an idiot. And the interview went on and on excruciatingly with Dalgliesh continually trying to dissemble and looking worse and worse. Finally on SAF, regardless of the possibility (or certainly depending on your view) of hypocracy, he could still be right. A little over the top for suggesting Suarez should never play for LFC again, but correct that Suarez was in the wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGuire Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Now this quite nicely sums things up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Now this quite nicely sums things up... [ATTACH=CONFIG]490[/ATTACH] Chuckle. I won't say that SAF (or most managers of football teams in any league) isn't a hypocrite. But that doesn't mean that he isn't correct in saying that Suarez was out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Chuckle. I won't say that SAF (or most managers of football teams in any league) isn't a hypocrite. But that doesn't mean that he isn't correct in saying that Suarez was out of line. I feel that Ferguson should have come down harder on Evra's post-game antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Now this quite nicely sums things up... [ATTACH=CONFIG]490[/ATTACH] It doesn't sum up anything other than your refusal to back up your statement of him being a hypocrite. The question is not whether ManU players have behaved poorly in the past, the question is what was SAF's reaction to these incidents. If you can find quotes where he approves of these players' actions then post them here. I am neutral on the issue and don't care either way so if you have such quotes then I will say he is a hypocrite. If you do not have such quotes then quit wasting our time by making false accusations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Now this quite nicely sums things up... [ATTACH=CONFIG]490[/ATTACH] It certainly does sum things up - by showing how you need to deflect the attention away from the disgraceful behaviour of LFC with some fabricated "quotes". The wisdom of McGuire: "I don't mind when a Liverpool player is racist as long as it is against a black player." See, anyone can do it. A bit harsh? Of course it is! (and I don't think you actually believe that)! So stop letting your being a fan of LFC (and your hate of Ferguson) cloud your judgement, and accept that sometimes even our heroes **** up. Liverpool is a great club with a fantastic tradition, but they have totally dropped the ball on this Suarez-Evra issue. Their apologies issued yesterday were months too late, but as Brethers said, better late than never I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I feel that Ferguson should have come down harder on Evra's post-game antics. Agreed. At least he said that Evra shouldn't have done that and didn't play dumb for 5 painful minutes with the interviewer. Not classy by Evra but ridiculous from Suarez and Dalgliesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 As a neutral I couldn't believe Daglish's post game interview. I had to rub my eyes and look at the calender to see if we really were iin 2012. Liverpool's PR image certainly took a beating this weekend. Although Evra certainly didn't win over too many neutrals either with his post game antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Now this quite nicely sums things up... [ATTACH=CONFIG]490[/ATTACH] Exactly! Strange thread this. I thought Mr. Ferguson came across as a complete hypocrite here. Like Gary Neville running the length of the pitch to celebrate a goal in front of the Liverpool travelling supporters some 5 years ago couldn't have "started a riot"? Besides, Evra wasn't exactly keen on shaking Suarez' hand At least Suarez puts everything out there in the open. He is easy to hate, but he doesn't care what people think of him and he lets you know that he doesn't care. Evra OTOH is a passive-aggressive prick! Only pretends to want to shake Suarez' hand after its too late, so that he looks like the good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No one has come out of this looking well. Evra definitely shouldn't have done the celebrations in the manner with which he did, but come on, some of this supposed defense of Suarez/LFC is farcical. Ferguson didn't come across as a hypocrite to anyone but a blinded LFC supporter bc what he said was accurate. Past transgressions of Man Utd players are irrelevant bc his condemnation of Suarez was accurate - which is proven by Dalglish's and Suarez's apologies issued yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No one has come out of this looking well. Evra definitely shouldn't have done the celebrations in the manner with which he did, but come on, some of this supposed defense of Suarez/LFC is farcical. Ferguson didn't come across as a hypocrite to anyone but a blinded LFC supporter bc what he said was accurate. Past transgressions of Man Utd players are irrelevant bc his condemnation of Suarez was accurate - which is proven by Dalglish's and Suarez's apologies issued yesterday. They apologized because they are partly to blame, but not fully. LFC took the higher road because they just want to end this nonsense. While Evra's(and Rio's) actions on Saturday combined with Ferguson's comments suggest Man United want to drag this thing on even longer (*yawn*). And why can't we look back at previous events? That's what hypocrisy is. Doing/saying different stuff now compared with what you did earlier when the tables were turned. PS.... I don't like LFC. Arsenal is my English team, so I want Liverpool to drop more points so the Gooners can go back to the Champions League next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 They apologized because they are partly to blame, but not fully. LFC took the higher road because they just want to end this nonsense. While Evra's(and Rio's) actions on Saturday combined with Ferguson's comments suggest Man United want to drag this thing on even longer (*yawn*). And why can't we look back at previous events? That's what hypocrisy is. Doing/saying different stuff now compared with what you did earlier when the tables were turned. PS.... I don't like LFC. Arsenal is my English team, so I want Liverpool to drop more points so the Gooners can go back to the Champions League next year. Fair enough if that's how you see it, but I don't think that United were trying to keep it going... Suaraz skipping Evra in the handshake (regardless of your photos NOT ONE newspaper has even hinted Evra pulled out of the handshake, so forgive me for disagreeing here as well) is what has re-ignited this issue and kept it going. After the Spurs match when Dalglish stated Suarez being back was great bc he "shouldn't have been suspended anyway" seems to me he was more than happy to keep that persecution complex going and therefore the argument too. The hypocrisy argument works if, as Grizzly says, you have a quote which Ferguson has defended his player after being convicted of using racist language. All managers are hypocrites, but a hypocrite can still say something and it be truthful and not hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditty Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 For me, the beginning of what happened at Old Trafford yesterday might be traced back to the match after Suarez was suspended and the whole Liverpool team wore his name and number on their back in warm up. I was shocked. It's one thing to support Suarez through a trying time, but this was a clear sign that LFC had decided that there was nothing at all for Suarez or LFC to be responsible for here. That THEY were the victims in all of this!! I couldn't believe it. No wonder Suarez continued to act so indignant, I wonder if one soul in LFC has even suggested he was wrong at all in the incident with Evra. Suarez is obviously more immature than most. Not only based on his handling of this particular situation but I harken back to earlier in the season when he was subbed out late in a game with his team winning, and sulked angrily past Dalglish and looked near tears for the rest of the match on the bench. He's a man-child with the emotional intelligence lower than a 14 year old, not unlike a lot of pros, but I feel the mistake LFC have made is that they don't seem to have seen fit to deal with it. They have chosen supposed "club loyalty" and "standing by your mate" over playing a role in a young man accepting responsibility for his actions. Obviously, they're changed their tune today but they've failed Suarez and I'm afraid his time in England is going to get even tougher before this is all said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Amacpher, your photo series is a deliberate attempt to falsify things. Anyone who chooses which photo at which time frame can be compared to another photo also of his choice can easily manipulate things to show what he wants. The video, of which there are several angles clearly shows Evra offering his hand to Suarez and Suarez intentionally not shaking it. And why can't we look back at previous events? That's what hypocrisy is. Doing/saying different stuff now compared with what you did earlier when the tables were turned. Actually we are all hoping you and the other Suarez defenders/SAF accusers will do exactly that, look at previous events and show us where SAF is defending his players who misbehaved previously. Players misbehave all the time though incidents involving prominent players on big teams get more publicity. Teams, teammates, coaches and fans can choose to defend their misbehaving player and bitch about his suspension or they can choose to criticize him for his actions and accept the suspension as justified. LFC management, coach, players and most of its fans have chosen the former course in this incident up until the apology today and have come off as major douchebags in doing so. It is my recollection that in the ManU events mentioned that the club and SAF criticized the players' actions and accepted the suspensions. My recollection may be incorrect but it is not up to me to look and see if it is or not, if SAF is going to be accused of being a hypocrite it is up to his accusers to produce some evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Amacpher, your photo series is a deliberate attempt to falsify things. Anyone who chooses which photo at which time frame can be compared to another photo also of his choice can easily manipulate things to show what he wants. The video, of which there are several angles clearly shows Evra offering his hand to Suarez and Suarez intentionally not shaking it. Actually we are all hoping you and the other Suarez defenders/SAF accusers will do exactly that, look at previous events and show us where SAF is defending his players who misbehaved previously. Players misbehave all the time though incidents involving prominent players on big teams get more publicity. Teams, teammates, coaches and fans can choose to defend their misbehaving player and bitch about his suspension or they can choose to criticize him for his actions and accept the suspension as justified. LFC management, coach, players and most of its fans have chosen the former course in this incident up until the apology today and have come off as major douchebags in doing so. It is my recollection that in the ManU events mentioned that the club and SAF criticized the players' actions and accepted the suspensions. My recollection may be incorrect but it is not up to me to look and see if it is or not, if SAF is going to be accused of being a hypocrite it is up to his accusers to produce some evidence. It's mind-boggling how you can simultaneously be such a simpleton and so condescending at the same time. Ferguson accused Suarez of nearly causing a riot by not shaking Evra's hand and that the consequence of his actions should be that he be barred from ever playing for Liverpool Football Club ever again. He tries to paint his comments as showing concern for LFC. The hypocricy comes from the fact that at least a half-dozen of Ferguson's most prominent players have multiple transgressions that are far worse than the failure to shake somebody's hand. None of those players were kicked out of Manchester United, were they? There's your hypocricy. Anybody with a five-year old's intelligence can see that. Where does that leave you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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