Jays consider going (real) green (Turf to be installed in Rogers' Centre?)

[Joe MacCarthy]

Jays consider going (real) green

Mike Cormack January 31, 2012

It's long been an eyesore to fans in the stands and to those watching at home on TV.

And now that they fear it might cost them the opportunity to land a premium free agent, the Toronto Blue Jays say they are seriously considering rolling up the Astroturf and installing a grass field at Rogers Centre.

The surprising revelation came from team president and CEO Paul Beeston in response to a question from a season-ticket holder during Monday's state of the franchise event at Rogers Centre.

It's long been held that a grass field could be not be sustained at Rogers Centre for the duration of a baseball season. Not so said Beeston.

"Grass can grow here. We've checked it out," he told a scrum of reporters moments after completing an hour-long Q&A session for fans along with general manager Alex Anthopoulos and manager John Farrell. "The real issue that we have is we have other events (at Rogers Centre), not just the Argos, but the other events here."

Beeston added that there are fertilizers available strong enough to sustain a grass field for a baseball season, provided the field stays in place for the duration.

"If you made the decision that you were going to make it a baseball-only stadium and you were going to put grass down, the question being can you do it, the answer would be yes," said Beeston. "Theoretically and practically. It can be done."

The biggest current obstacle standing between the Blue Jays and a grass field appears to be the Toronto Argonauts of the CFL, a Rogers Centre tenant for nine dates in 2011 between the start of the baseball season and the conclusion of the World Series.

The Argonauts current lease with the Rogers Centre is set to expire at the end of 2012, the same year their current five-year deal with the Buffalo Bills of the NFL ends.

There is talk that Rogers Centre owner, Rogers Communications, and the Bills may extend their partnership beyond 2012, but as long as future Bills games aren't held during the baseball season it should pose no threat to a grass field for the baseball season.

Rogers Centre is also scheduled to serve as the venue for the opening and closing ceremonies of the Pan American Games in July, 2015.

Earlier in the evening Anthopoulos acknowledged that this off-season the Jays had lost out on two free agents with whom they had offered more money and more years to. Later in his scrum with reporters, Anthopoulos refused to divulge the league the respective players will ply their trade in next summer, but he did concede the Blue Jays current playing surface is a non-starter for some free agents.

"There's certain players that just don't have any desire to play on (artificial) turf no matter what the dollars are," he explained. "At times it does affect things, it's a factor. It can pose a challenge at times, but I'm not one to make excuses. This is a place that when it was (artificial) turf, all the great players were willing to come here."

Still, Anthopoulos is a big proponent of rolling up the Astroturf for good.

"That's exciting, the fact that there's even a conversation about it," he said. "But again, that's a decision that's way above my pay grade. But from a selfish standpoint, I'd love to see it happen."

As CEO of not only the Blue Jays, but of Rogers Centre as well, Beeston knows the numbers better than anyone and he said he has an idea of how much a move to grass would cost. If that's the case it would appear then that the only decisions to be made now are whether Beeston wants to do it and whether Rogers is willing to bankroll the extra gardening supplies and potential lost revenue from other events.

In the meantime, Beeston and Anthopoulos said they can win on the (artificial) turf, even if it means missing out on the odd free agent.

"Carl Crawford wanted out of Tampa Bay because he didn't want to play on (artificial) turf anymore," Beeston said, referring to the playing artificial surface at Tampa's Tropicana field. "So there's a real live example. If we wanted Carl Crawford, Carl Crawford didn't really want us. Not because he didn't like Toronto, not because he didn't like John Farrell, not because he didn't like Alex Anthopoulos, not because he didn't like our money. He didn't want to play on (artificial) turf."

Beeston was then asked if he thinks a grass field is therefore imperative when pursuing elite free agents.

"It may well be," he said. "It may well be, (for) getting that premier, young free agent."

Anthopoulos said although he'd love to see his team play on grass at home, the playing surface won't be such an issue if the team is winning.

"If we're contending for a World Series each year, it's not going to be a problem," he said.

[paul-collins]

Interesting story in the context of the WCQ and the new BC Place turf... The Dome turf in its current iteration was considered to be a pretty good one for the purpose - but there were fielders (Shawn Green, for one) who felt that the turf/concrete combo was hurting their knees long-term.

[killgod]

Rogers center is an awful place for football, so please stop playing Argos/Bills games there and give the Jays grass.

[Free kick]

Going with a natural surface for Baseball should inevitably mean dirt in the infield and home plate areas. We have seen a few NFL teams (who play in multi purpose stadiums) play some regular season NFL games on a gridiron with areas of dirt where the base paths are. Sounds like a less than ideal situation but still doable for football and it doesn't look like the integrity of the sport is compromised .

But for soccer, it could be another story. Could you still play (on an ad hoc basis, such as is the case with Concacaf Champions league) on that kind of a surface? This might be one of those rare instances whereby going to and "all natural" surface might not be a welcommed thing for soccer fans.

[gator]

Going with a natural surface for Baseball should inevitably mean dirt in the infield and home plate areas. We have seen a few NFL teams (who play in multi purpose stadiums) play some regular season NFL games on a gridiron with areas of dirt where the base paths are. Sounds like a less than ideal situation but still doable for football and it doesn't look like the integrity of the sport is compromised .

But for soccer, it could be another story. Could you still play (on an ad hoc basis, such as is the case with Concacaf Champions league) on that kind of a surface? This might be one of those rare instances whereby going to and "all natural" surface might not be a welcommed thing for soccer fans.

Presently I believe Miami and San Diego are the only NFL teams that play on baseball diamonds re-configured for football! The difference in these two cities is that there is only a short overlap of seasons and the teams are probably only going to play no more than 2 home games on this less than ideal field! CFL and MLB would completely conflict!

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Presently I believe Miami and San Diego are the only NFL teams that play on baseball diamonds re-configured for football! The difference in these two cities is that there is only a short overlap of seasons and the teams are probably only going to play no more than 2 home games on this less than ideal field! CFL and MLB would completely conflict!

The Padres moved into their own stadium a few years ago and the Marlins are opening their own Skydome-esque baseball stadium this season.

Oakland is the only one left with NFL/MLB sharing.

[Lord Bob]

This seems like an easy one. Put grass in the SkyDome, move the Argonauts to BMO Field! Everybody's happy!

[gator]

This seems like an easy one. Put grass in the SkyDome, move the Argonauts to BMO Field! Everybody's happy!

**** disturber!

[Free kick]

Presently I believe Miami and San Diego are the only NFL teams that play on baseball diamonds re-configured for football!

I was thinking Oakland Raiders

[Joe MacCarthy]

Before this thread gets any more off topic than it already has, let's establish a few points:

It's already been studied that the Argos can't play at BMO without massive renovations or changing of CFL rules (neither likely to happen).

Obviously the RC is not meant to be a new home for TFC.

The reason the idea was posted was to look at this as a sometime home for important NT friendlies and big WC qualifiers.

Freekick has been the only poster to post why this might not be able to be accomplished. I'm trying to see how it can. The base cutouts are the main issue. How can this be solved? Can a grass tray system be installed in the cutouts and be playable and safe?

[Alex D]

Freekick has been the only poster to post why this might not be able to be accomplished. I'm trying to see how it can. The base cutouts are the main issue. How can this be solved? Can a grass tray system be installed in the cutouts and be playable and safe?

DC United played a few years sharing RFK with the Nats. It's not a big obstacle.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Toronto Blue Jays search for supergrass to replace artificial turf in Rogers Centre

Stephanie Findlay Staff Reporter thestar.com Feb 03 2012

We can make Dolly and ask Siri but we cannot grow grass in the shade.

At the Rogers Centre, and just about every other big stadium, the grass won’t survive.

None of them work. Not the rugged Celebration Bermudagrass, the classic Kentucky bluegrass, or the resilient seashore paspalum.

The ballpark’s walls are too high, the sun can’t shine in.

Why then, did the Blue Jays team president and CEO Paul Beeston say the Rogers Centre could sustain plant life, exciting fans yearning for a lush green field and players tired of rug burn?

“Theoretically and practically, it can be done,” he told season ticket holders on Monday.

As it turns out, Beeston is kind of right. You can provide lights for the grass (to compensate for the shade) or invest in either a modular field or rail system (to move it away from the shade).

What you can’t do is simply grow the stuff.

Apparently, shade-grown grass is the athletic groundskeeper’s Holy Grail.

“This is the kind of thing I always tell the students on the first day,” said John Rogers, turf science professor at Michigan State University. “There’s no perfect grass for all situations. If there was I wouldn’t have a job.”

Since Astro Turf’s 1966 debut in the Houston Astrodome, real grass fell out of vogue, unable to withstand the traffic of a multi-purpose facility like the Rogers Centre, one just as likely to host an Argos game or Disney On Ice as it is a Jays game.

In the past decade, however, there has been a grass revival. Today, the Jays are just one of two teams in Major League Baseball, along with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, that continue to use, in the words of New York Times columnist Dave Anderson, a “chemist’s carpet.”

Earlier this week in Florida, the Miami Marlins installed a grass field for their ballpark, which has a retractable roof.

The retractable roof will remain open until opening day in order to get plenty of sun.

“They’re using a Bermuda called ‘Celebration,’ ” said George Toma, a veteran groundskeeper described as the world’s best.

“It takes the shade better than some of the other Bermudas.”

Toma, who has just turned 83, is readying the artificial turf at the Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis where he’s painting, brushing and putting in the crumb rubber for Sunday’s Super Bowl.

His fields, the natural kind, are made of coarse sand from American and Canadian riverbeds, peat from fields in Wisconsin, the Dakotas and Minnesota and the latest strain of supergrass.

“In the early days we only had three or four grasses: One or two bluegrass, one or two rye grass,” said Toma. “Now we have 100 varieties of bluegrass, 100 varieties of rye grass.”

Still, no amount of genetic manipulation has yielded a shade-resistant blade.

Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, is one of the agronomy leaders in North America. It began working with turf grasses in the 1920s as a result of golf’s growing popularity.

Rutgers scientists represent a small group of breeders researching the top shade-resistant grasses, Kentucky bluegrasses, perennial rye grasses and tall and fine fescues.

“There’s early reports of this kind of work decades ago, but it hasn’t been until recently, the last 10 to 15 years, that you’ve seen more emphasis to develop techniques to study this,” said James Murphy, head of the turfgrass management research program.

“Now, a lot of our suburban and urban developments are getting pretty mature, the trees are getting much larger,” he said, “people are noticing shade problems now that they didn’t notice 20 years ago when their trees were much smaller.”

Yet there hasn’t been a breakthrough, so groundskeepers continue to find workarounds.

Lambeau Field, the home of the Green Bay Packers, is heated below and serviced by lights, designed by a Dutch firm, which hang 2 metres above the grass and extend the growing season by months. The Houston Astros have a similar set-up.

“There’s new technology coming out now with these grow lights,” said Toma. “They’re mechanical, they’re self-propelled, they move through the night.”

Sadly for Jays fans, it’s unlikely such technology will be coming to Toronto soon.

“It would need a buy-in from the stadium people,” said Steve Schiedel, co-owner of Greenhorizons Group of Farms Ltd., a company hired by the Rogers Centre to temporarily sod the field for soccer matches.

Such an endorsement may be unlikely, says Schiedel, but that doesn’t stop him from dreaming.

“I’d love to see the Jays play on real turf, natural turf,” he said, adding that “the turf type tall fescue is a little more shade tolerant and would work.”

In the meantime, scientists and groundskeepers alike continue their quest for grass that can grow in the shade.

“Every once in a while we’ll find something that looks like it’s done really, really well in a low light area,” said Rogers, the Michigan scientist, “but that’s because no one’s been stepping on it.”

[ray]

Another article on the issue :

Toronto Star Feb 9 by Dave Perkins

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/1128253--perkins-argos-turfed-if-toronto-blue-jays-put-grass-in-rogers-centre

I don't see what Rogers gains from essentially converting the Rogers Centre to a single sport/single revenue stream operation. A few free agents for the Jays? Would this mean the stadium sits empty in most years between October and March?

I'm sure the Argos will somehow land on their feet if their lease is not renewed but does it make enough financial sense for Rogers to send them packing?

All that said, it would be cool to see real grass in the ol' Skydome.

[theaub]

Another article on the issue :

Toronto Star Feb 9 by Dave Perkins

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/1128253--perkins-argos-turfed-if-toronto-blue-jays-put-grass-in-rogers-centre

I don't see what Rogers gains from essentially converting the Rogers Centre to a single sport/single revenue stream operation. A few free agents for the Jays? Would this mean the stadium sits empty in most years between October and March?

I'm sure the Argos will somehow land on their feet if their lease is not renewed but does it make enough financial sense for Rogers to send them packing?

All that said, it would be cool to see real grass in the ol' Skydome.

If they get a grass field, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL in Toronto very soon (and I don't mean this stupid Bills series).

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Dave Perkins' hypocrisy has always bugged me to no end. He constantly rails against the tax payer funding for BMO field for the U20 world cup but has absolutely no problem with the tax payer funding for the new Ticats stadium which isn't even needed for the Pan Am games.

[Joe MacCarthy]

If they get a grass field, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL in Toronto very soon (and I don't mean this stupid Bills series).

Don't hold your breath. That'll cost about two billion (stadium/franchise) and there aren't many people who can put up that kind of dough and wait 20 years for a return. Also SkyDome is too small, could only be used as a stopgap.

[tmcmurph]

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2010/12/red-bull-arena-trials-pitch-growth-lights

[Free kick]

Dave Perkins' hypocrisy has always bugged me to no end. He constantly rails against the tax payer funding for BMO field for the U20 world cup but has absolutely no problem with the tax payer funding for the new Ticats stadium which isn't even needed for the Pan Am games.

And a report from last year indicated that BMO field was the only city owned facility/venue that made money for the city. The city's contribution to the funding of the construction of BMO field was nothing more than the land (ie.: worth about 10 Million). So i wouldn't be surprised if the city got all their money back by now. Same goes for the provincce's contribution through tax revenues that the facility generates.

I doubt that the public purse and the tax payer will ever see a cent of return for the public funds that are spent on pan am game venues including the ticats stadium. And we all know what happened with skydome. I agree about Perkins. He is shill for the the pro baseball and football businesses in the city. That why his targets (thought discretly) are always this game.

[theaub]

Don't hold your breath. That'll cost about two billion (stadium/franchise) and there aren't many people who can put up that kind of dough and wait 20 years for a return. Also SkyDome is too small, could only be used as a stopgap.

Rogers will drop the money in a second for the NFL; the TV revenue itself makes it a net-sum investment. Also the Rogers Centre can be pushed to the 55k minimum required if need be.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Not to get too far off topic but I doubt Rogers can afford it. They had to partner with Bell to get MLSE and that was at half of what this venture will cost.

[BuzzAndSting]

Out of curiosity where does the number $2BIL come from? The Bills are only valued at about $800MIL. Expenses to move the team would be $1.2BIL?

[TFC07]

Toronto isn't going to get a NFL team. Idea of bringing a NFL team to Toronto is dead now. Bills series in Toronto has been complete fail and Rogers are no longer interested in getting a NFL team. Toronto isn't a American/Canadian football town and Rogers knows it now (they had to find out the hard way). If Rogers Centre do get grass, then I except a lot of soccer friendlies being played there during summer.

[Scottie]

Out of curiosity where does the number $2BIL come from? The Bills are only valued at about $800MIL. Expenses to move the team would be $1.2BIL?

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Rogers Centre does not meet the minimum standard for an NFL stadium, and thus if they were to have a prayer of a permanent NFL team in Toronto, a (massive) new stadium would have to be built. Not gonna happen.

[BuzzAndSting]

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Rogers Centre does not meet the minimum standard for an NFL stadium, and thus if they were to have a prayer of a permanent NFL team in Toronto, a (massive) new stadium would have to be built. Not gonna happen.

Ahhhh. I didn't realize there was a minimum for capacity.

The red headed spokesape Roger Godell was asked on the Friday before the Superbowl about the possibility of the Bills or any other team moving to Toronto and from his answer it was clear the Bills series was nothing more than a marketing ploy by the team. The NFL is focused on Mexico and England for it's international development.