Alex D Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 As a Canada and TFC fan I find this disappointing. Disappointing because it's not like their development would have been stunted if they stayed at home, it's not 1998 anymore. Even more disappointing that TFC let them go. What the hell is the point of an academy if you're going to sell the products before you get any use out of them? That's like buying a car, driving it off the lot, and putting it back up for sale. I would have rather seen these two kids graduate from the academy and establish themselves in MLS before making the move. All of this being said, I don't know the specific's of the situation. I don't know what, if anything, TFC received in compensation, or if they had any rights at all to stop them from leaving. But it's all very frustrating. From the kids point of view, moving to London to take a shot at the Premier League must be a dream come true. I wish them all of the best and to have great careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Correct. And if they do not make it to MLS they certainly sure as hell wont make in EPL. but what we do know is that if they do make it to MLS then they have as good, if not better, a chance to make it to the EPL than they do now by going to QPR who as we speak today are in the relegation territory. So we agree that its not about going to the epl or staying with the MLS. Its about development where the best place to develop. Some have talked several times about coaching etc they will receive. But no one so far has given me names of the coaches at QPR (involved in youth sides) other than Bircham So if they won't make it to MLS then they shouldn't even bother trying to make it with a current EPL team? They should just keep their dreams and ambitions very low? Also say QPR are relegated, they won't get any chances to catch the eye of EPL teams by playing in the championship? They'll have a better chance getting to the EPL with MLS? Really? How is it that people here can just automatically assume there is better development in MLS than in a lower level EPL club? Will Danny Dichio and Jimmy Brennon have better credentials or quality than whatever QPR names are given here? Can I name any current Blackburn youth coaches? No. Is David Hoilett still way better than anything TFC have produced? Yes. (I know he's been there longer than TFC have had an academy) There are some pretty big assumptions being made by MLS supporters on this board. Edited January 15, 2012 by Soccerpro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Even more disappointing that TFC let them go. What the hell is the point of an academy if you're going to sell the products before you get any use out of them? That's like buying a car, driving it off the lot, and putting it back up for sale. I would have rather seen these two kids graduate from the academy and establish themselves in MLS before making the move. But it's all very frustrating. . Yes. In a nutshell, this is exactly the same point, and using the same perfect example, that i have been making on and on in that thread 6-12 months ago when the whitecaps sent several of their players to those German clubs. The ultimate outcome of that was that their director was dismissed and replaced as as result of those actions and where are the whitecaps now in regards depth at the academy levels that can step into the first team? And where are those players now? Essentially nowhere. Are our national teams any better off as result? A better example might be: your a prospective real estate developer and you launch yourself into home building. But for some unexplained reason you decide to sell the home or one of your homes just after the foundation has been laid. Whose going to buy a home and pay full mkt value when only the foundation is up? Nobody, except for another developer who is going pay you a tiny fraction in money, will finish the job, put their stamp and style (no matter how crappy the quality) and re sell it for full market value. So you have received a measly amount but nobody knows or cares that you had part in building it. You have done nothing to build your reputation as home builder that people can count on. And, in the long run (if you keep doing that) your margins will be so low that you will have to multiply your output to stay in business, thus sticking to building only foundations. If you continue to do this, can you still call yourself a home builder? Or are you now a sub contractor? Is the overall quality of the home and options for the home buyers any better as result of your actions? No of course not, we are back to where we were before you deceided to enter the business. What is the point of an academy afterall? Yes its to develop team for the first team and or for the purposes tranferring on the market for financial gain that can be reinvested. But to receive maximun value, you need to finish the job. Edited January 15, 2012 by Free kick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 So if they won't make it to MLS then they shouldn't even bother trying to make it with a current EPL team? They should just keep their dreams and ambitions very low? Also say QPR are relegated, they won't get any chances to catch the eye of EPL teams by playing in the championship? They'll have a better chance getting to the EPL with MLS? Really? How is it that people here can just automatically assume there is better development in MLS than in a lower level EPL club? Will Danny Dichio and Jimmy Brennon have better credentials or quality than whatever QPR names are given here? Can I name any current Blackburn youth coaches? No. Is David Hoilett still way better than anything TFC have produced? Yes. (I know he's been there longer than TFC have had an academy) There are some pretty big assumptions being made by MLS supporters on this board. Just as there are assumptions that anything in Europe > than staying at home and developing. I can't speak for anyone other than myself here, but given the history of Canadian kids going over to England, it's fair to express a bit of concern that this may not be the best course of action at this stage. Kudos to Petrasso and Carreiro for having the balls to chase their dream on a possibly bigger stage. That kind of attitude is to be applauded, and will be needed. That said, I'm not going to automatically assume that they are automatically better off just because QPR are (for now) an EPL club. That's all I'm saying at this point. Either way, good luck to them both. I sincerely hope that they become stars with QPR (at which point my slight concerns will have been proven completely wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 In a nutshell, this is exactly the same point, and using the same perfect example, that i have been making on and on in that thread 6-12 months ago when the whitecaps sent several of their players to those German clubs. The ultimate outcome of that was that their director was dismissed and replaced as as result of those actions and where are the whitecaps now in regards depth at the academy levels that can step into the first team? And where are those players now? Essentially nowhere. Are our national teams any better off as result? Saying that they are "essentially nowhere" is not entirely true. Adam Straith is decently successful with FC Energie Cottbus (and is a national teamer). Most others have faded into obsucrity, however. It's to be expected at the youth level, especially for young Canadians in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontoSC Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Okay, for everyone dumping on TFC's Academy, the club just signed Thomas Rongen who is supposed to be a top notch developer of talent and a former Ajax man himself. They also have the direction and leadership of Aron Winter and Bob de Klerk, people recommended by Klinsmann. and they just invested millions into the academy. The only possible thing is that these kids don't have any patience and were dying at the chance of going to an EPL club because of how glamorous it sounds, as opposed to good old Canada. If you're willing to spend 20 million on facilities you better spend the money to keep your players (especially since it doesn't count against the cap) and to get the best coaches. This is a major fail unless the situation is that they're dealing with impatient teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Most others have faded into obsucrity, however. It's to be expected at the youth level, especially for young Canadians in Europe. Exactly. 95 percent of anyone on the youth books fades, Canadian or not. Though I do agree with Free Kick that our record is definitely not great. Would have liked to see them stay and see what TFC could do for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I think all this is contingent on how the transfer contract reads. Plain and simple. Here are examples of how to structure contracts: The two players signed a unique deals with FC Edmonton; both have agreed to train with the club until their paperwork clears and they can go to Germany. But, if their visa applications fall through or they don’t stick with their German clubs, FC Edmonton keeps right of first refusal on both players’ rights on this side of the ocean. So, if one or both comes back, they return to FC Edmonton to play. http://the11.ca/2011/11/03/jalali-froese-gonzalez-speak-about-their-unique-fc-edmonton-deals/ And/Or Investors (TFC) hold/buy shares in the economic rights of young players and often cover the costs of their training and accommodation. In return they are entitled to a percentage of a player's future transfer fee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_ownership_in_association_football To keep on the business philosophy theme: Which do you think will occur more often under the MLS structure? Youth transfers or Player Transfers Abroad? At this point it would probably be player transfers abroad but if TFC can produce 2 youth players a year and structure them with clauses like the above, they will probably stand to make more money in the long-run. MLS has been really tough on player transfers abroad and have prevented transfers with their asking prices for players: Donovan, Twellman, Sharlie Joseph etc. I'm sure MLSE is covering their bases to maximize their profits. The interesting thing about this topic to me is if MLSE can master the process of selling youth players abroad and be financially successful doing so, what it it may mean for the rest of youth development in Canada. Can other youth academies start making money in this country? Can it underwrite the costs of operating a CND 2 Division etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) MLS has been really tough on player transfers abroad and have prevented transfers with their asking prices for players: Donovan, Twellman, Sharlie Joseph etc. ... I respect the way they handled that, in particular to the Taylor Twellman case. i am baffled why american seem to have a better grasp of the situation in regards the player movement market and the bigger picture of what best for their program, the advancement if the game and their improvement as a soccer nation. Here in canada, we seem to not make that the distinction and think that every in europe is all the same, all you have to do is say Europe and you hear a chorus of applause. As if second division Germany, England, Finland is the same as manchester United, Barcelona and Bayern Munich. If i recall correctly, the americans balked at the deal or idea of Twellman joining a club in the second tier/division (ie.Championship). Beacuse they know that in the case of player on national team radar like Twellman, that environment and level of play is not consistent with the type of environment that you need your players to be in if you want to be serious in challenging Mexico or making some hay at the world cup finals since those teams field lineups of first divison stars who multidimensional. They know that offensive skills are diluted in that evironment (sec div's) because that talent has filterred to the level above. Hence you are not prepared and dont have the guns to challenge the like Mexico or Uruguay, to name few of many. Hence better to stay at home. Btw i dont think that there we any objections from their end in regards to Donovan and Dempsey, i thought that those moves were applauded. Edited January 15, 2012 by Free kick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I agree with you that Europe is not the be all end all of football. Totally agree with you. I'm even more wary that these players are going to England. The Canadian kids I have tracked have had a terrible track record going there but if they come back to TFC with one year with QPR under their belt would that be bad thing? I mean in the same year (had they stayed) TFC would have had to sign Aleman, Gasparotta, Carreiro, Petrasso, Camargo and Vukovic. After signing Stinson, Makabuya, Cordon, Lindsay, Morgan, Henry in the last two years. The reality is there isn't enough roster spots. It is a shame to lose the best players but if you believe you have the depth and the contracts you have with players don't prevent them for leaving at any point TFC has to make these moves. You can assist players to get to the next level while seeking remuneration and potentially getting them back or you can stifle their move and have players leave without any compensation. I'll be honest, I really didn't pay attention to Carreiro until this news came out. PS. Do you have a link that MLS prevented Twellman's move for the reason you mentioned above? All the articles I've seen referenced money as the mitigating factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes. In a nutshell, this is exactly the same point, and using the same perfect example, that i have been making on and on in that thread 6-12 months ago when the whitecaps sent several of their players to those German clubs. The ultimate outcome of that was that their director was dismissed and replaced as as result of those actions and where are the whitecaps now in regards depth at the academy levels that can step into the first team? Well, who were the guys the Whitecaps sent to Germany permanently (not loan moves; let's make an apples-to-apples comparison). Adam Straith is a national team member and is doing just fine. Alex Elliot is done, but got a second chance in Vancouver after he washed out of Germany and was not at a USSF D2 standard. As a Whitecaps fan, I sure would like to have Straith on our backline. As a Canada fan, I'm not going to pretend that playing and training at a higher level hasn't helped Straith's development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yep, these kids could have gained the skills to succeed in the ferocious, dog-eat-dog world of Major League Soccer but instead they'll be reduced to the inferior talent endemic in the English Premier League (rolls eyes so hard his skull makes weird sounds). Roll your eyes all you want, it won't make QPR any less of a fringe EPL club. The way i see it the QPR youth academy is no better than a Championship outfit - which is the level they've been at for over a decade. If they do stay in the EPL then it makes the route to the first team for both of these players that much tougher. Less 1st team PT, less development. That's why i wanted them to stay at TFC, with Winter et al they would have been given an opportunity to earn PT in the next 2-3 years and i doubt that's something we can expect for them at QPR. That's a big reason so many young Canadians never make it in England, it isn't a development league and it's much easier to pay an established veteran then take a chance on a young kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Lets face facts too about the academy system - outside of the tier 1 academies (Arsenal, ManU, ManCity etc etc), the acadmies in Britain are grooming players to be sold. Look at Southampton: Gareth Bale, Theo Walcott, Leon Best, Wayne Bridge all developed there but were sold young (amongst others). It is the nature of the academy system that you will get raided by better clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well, who were the guys the Whitecaps sent to Germany permanently (not loan moves; let's make an apples-to-apples comparison). Adam Straith is a national team member and is doing just fine. Alex Elliot is done, but got a second chance in Vancouver after he washed out of Germany and was not at a USSF D2 standard. As a Whitecaps fan, I sure would like to have Straith on our backline. As a Canada fan, I'm not going to pretend that playing and training at a higher level hasn't helped Straith's development. I thought that the players were: Porter, Semments, Baker, Gage, Dosanj, And Straith. Straith is 21 now btw but he was probably 18 at the time he was sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Porter came up through the Whitecaps, went on loan to Cottbus, returned to the Whitecaps, played well at the end of the 2010 season, and would be in MLS if its rules weren't so ****ty. Anyway, he's doing very well with FC Edmonton so I'm going to assume his loan experience probably didn't kill him. Semenets never played a game for a German team and was Whitecaps property until the end of last season, playing with their PDL team. Was Baker sold? I thought he was just cut because he sucked. Gage never played a game for a German team and was Whitecaps property until the end of last season, when he preferred signing with Reading to signing with MLS Vancouver. Gagandeep Dosanj went on loan to Cottbus and never did anything with anyone anywhere ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) PS. Do you have a link that MLS prevented Twellman's move for the reason you mentioned above? All the articles I've seen referenced money as the mitigating factor I didnt quite say that they prevented. Or that it was MLS. I spent the last few mins looking for it. But no cigar. Edited January 16, 2012 by Free kick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDM Rover Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Porter came up through the Whitecaps, went on loan to Cottbus, returned to the Whitecaps, played well at the end of the 2010 season, and would be in MLS if its rules weren't so ****ty. Anyway, he's doing very well with FC Edmonton so I'm going to assume his loan experience probably didn't kill him. Semenets never played a game for a German team and was Whitecaps property until the end of last season, playing with their PDL team. ... Alex Semenets was with FC Edmonton last season and is signed for this upcoming season as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Quite right; I'm still thinking of 2010 as "last season" sometimes. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brethers Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 why do people assume QPRs academy is naff? When southampton produced Bale and Walcott they were in the Championship, they have Lallana from their academy who is top quality as well. Middlesbrough (also currently in the championship) are renowned for having a good academy. Downing, Johnson, Wheater to name 3 straight off the top of my head. Ipswich also have a very strong academy tradition. Maybe being a "championship level" academy isn't bad? Can anyone name any academy coaches anyway? What's an Arsenal academy coach? Does me not knowing who they are make Arsenal's academy poor? Can't we just be happy for the guys to be at QPR trying to chase their dream. It's also not just about coaching, but guidance they will receive from first team players and potentially Mark Hughes. It's good exposure for TFCs academy too, it's a good selling point to say how many players they have had which are now at these other clubs (Aleman, Petrasso, Carreiro and Gasparotto). It will help to attract better players to the academy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 If you're willing to spend 20 million on facilities you better spend the money to keep your players (especially since it doesn't count against the cap) and to get the best coaches. This is a major fail unless the situation is that they're dealing with impatient teenagers. Okay, I fail to see what the big deal is about a few players leaving here and there. The GTA has so much talent that two more boys will easily come in a fill there place. I'm sure there are 100's of kids in the Toronto area who are good enough for the acadamy but for whatever reason were not accepted (there are limited spots available after all). I would be more concerned if this became a regular thing and kids were taking advantage of the exposure of TFC acadamy in order to land a trial in Europe. That would still be good for Canada (getting more kids out there), but would be a waste of resources for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattes Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Okay, I fail to see what the big deal is about a few players leaving here and there. The GTA has so much talent that two more boys will easily come in a fill there place. I'm sure there are 100's of kids in the Toronto area who are good enough for the acadamy but for whatever reason were not accepted (there are limited spots available after all). I would be more concerned if this became a regular thing and kids were taking advantage of the exposure of TFC acadamy in order to land a trial in Europe. That would still be good for Canada (getting more kids out there), but would be a waste of resources for the club. You hit the nail on the head! There are 100 kids to take their places that should have had spots to train without them leaving. Kids leaving Canada to train isn't the problem, it is a symptom of the greater problem which is lack of facilities here in Canada to keep them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Okay, I fail to see what the big deal is about a few players leaving here and there. The GTA has so much talent that two more boys will easily come in a fill there place. I'm sure there are 100's of kids in the Toronto area who are good enough for the acadamy but for whatever reason were not accepted (there are limited spots available after all). I would be more concerned if this became a regular thing and kids were taking advantage of the exposure of TFC acadamy in order to land a trial in Europe. That would still be good for Canada (getting more kids out there), but would be a waste of resources for the club. I think that is the big concern for most who see this as a disappointing move. Sure there may be 100 kids to take their place, but TFC have already invested their time and money into these guys. Now they are walking the first chance they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 why do people assume QPRs academy is naff? When southampton produced Bale and Walcott they were in the Championship, they have Lallana from their academy who is top quality as well. Middlesbrough (also currently in the championship) are renowned for having a good academy. Downing, Johnson, Wheater to name 3 straight off the top of my head. Ipswich also have a very strong academy tradition. Maybe being a "championship level" academy isn't bad? Can anyone name any academy coaches anyway? What's an Arsenal academy coach? Does me not knowing who they are make Arsenal's academy poor? Can't we just be happy for the guys to be at QPR trying to chase their dream. It's also not just about coaching, but guidance they will receive from first team players and potentially Mark Hughes. It's good exposure for TFCs academy too, it's a good selling point to say how many players they have had which are now at these other clubs (Aleman, Petrasso, Carreiro and Gasparotto). It will help to attract better players to the academy I agree with this! It seems many people are dismissing the move as a poor choice due to QPR's precarious position in the EPL, that to me shows a general ignorance or lack of knowledge of the English academies! I think the 3 Canadian academies are doing very well and will continue to get better but I can't fault the kids for following a National Team coach who they would trust and going over to England to be exposed to a different soccer culture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 why do people assume QPRs academy is naff? When southampton produced Bale and Walcott they were in the Championship, they have Lallana from their academy who is top quality as well. Middlesbrough (also currently in the championship) are renowned for having a good academy. Downing, Johnson, Wheater to name 3 straight off the top of my head. Ipswich also have a very strong academy tradition. Maybe being a "championship level" academy isn't bad? Can anyone name any academy coaches anyway? What's an Arsenal academy coach? Does me not knowing who they are make Arsenal's academy poor? Can't we just be happy for the guys to be at QPR trying to chase their dream. It's also not just about coaching, but guidance they will receive from first team players and potentially Mark Hughes. It's good exposure for TFCs academy too, it's a good selling point to say how many players they have had which are now at these other clubs (Aleman, Petrasso, Carreiro and Gasparotto). It will help to attract better players to the academy Can you name any good players who are products of QPR youth academy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 ^Probably loads that have a career in the Championship or possibly overseas if they were foreigners in the youth program. "good" isn't necessarily defined as just those that make the EPL or La Liga etc etc.... It'll be a good program! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now