Voyageurs Cup Invitational

[Juby]

I have no money, limited contacts and little relevant experience.

However I have an idea to try and raise some money. I want to organize a V-cup invitational as a one location event. This is for the 8 best teams who accept. My ultimate goal would be to get FCE to headline as say a pre season tournament. Invite the CSL, PDL, new league teams, PCSL(doubtful, distance) and other amateur teams if necessary to make the best teams possible. So somewhere between the challenge cup and the current V-cup.

This would establish an obvious future system if the V-cup were ever opened up.

I would literally only need verbal commitments (if you get so and so and so, then sure) from teams/leagues and sponsors and local tv. I'm honestly thinking it should be at one of Toronto's 3000ish stadiums. To be honest even if I successfully promote the hell out of it I don't imagine it'll sell amazing in gate. The key will be sponsors, selling this concept to sponsors to make the money that will be made available if I have the teams and and even a basic tv deal. Think sitcoms where someone does everyone a favour but theirs a way out by having the last guy help out the first and thats what this whole deal is about. I could sell everything from the cup name to barrier ads to 'this half is brought to you by...'. I just need something to sell and a list of numbers and a local phone and I can get to work.

It would only go forward if I made my sponsorship goals, had official support, and got some decent teams it would work. If we could make a profit it would be in our/my hands (50/50?) and provide another revenue source for the V's.

The reason I'm saying all this is because, god willing (0.0001% chance) I can generate enough buzz around the idea that a few people even expect calls. Prospective date is Spring 2013. Thoughts?

Edit: The biggest problem I have in my head is that if I get some teams on board, I have something to sell to sponsors, If I have sponsors/location fees sorted out then I potentially could have prize money to offer (realistically the central costs of such an event at B venue are relatively low so a successful amount of sponsors could be worth something). This is gonna sound silly but the first people I'm gonna try calling is the CSA to try and convince them to give me some sort of official approval, important (even free) credibility is very useful if you say it the right way in a sales pitch.

For example, I don't want to toot my own horn but I've taken getting rejected by email from a prominent company in a certain field and used that 'rejection' to get an interview with another prominent company in that field to currently getting deep into discussions with yet another prominent company in that field. If I can turn rejection into a credential and a selling point, I can sell a tournament to sponsors, teams and a tv station (believe it or not, the thirds the easiest if were forgetting the big sports channels).

[hamiltonfan]

Many will think this is farfetched; but I like the overall concept and have had similar proposal in the past.

check out Voyageurs Shield: http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?36846-Proposed-Voyageurs-Shield

Scaling it down from a full-blown national competition to a weekend invitation makes the idea practically doable.

-weekend PRESEASON tournament, professional run with several revenue drivers

-NASL, PDL, CSL, New Quebec, Ontario League’s, local MLS side, even invite American pro sides of all level (Rochester, Buffalo NASL-side?). Having said that, tournament could be successful with Thunder Bay, White Eagles, Miltown, Ottawa level squads

-all proceeds go to funding large scale projections for the Vs for that year

-Much fire power on these boards, team affiliates, potential sponsors, MEDIA ect. A new tournament could raise enough cash to do some fun stuff with come June WCQ.

-Good PR boost

-Would be great footy….and it would be pretty cool to see an additional “Voyageurs” title prize sought after by clubs

[Juby]

Many will think this is farfetched; but I like the overall concept and have had similar proposal in the past.

check out Voyageurs Shield: http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?36846-Proposed-Voyageurs-Shield

Scaling it down from a full-blown national competition to a weekend invitation makes the idea practically doable.

-weekend PRESEASON tournament, professional run with several revenue drivers

-NASL, PDL, CSL, New Quebec, Ontario League’s, local MLS side, even invite American pro sides of all level (Rochester, Buffalo NASL-side?). Having said that, tournament could be successful with Thunder Bay, White Eagles, Miltown, Ottawa level squads

-all proceeds go to funding large scale projections for the Vs for that year

-Much fire power on these boards, team affiliates, potential sponsors, MEDIA ect. A new tournament could raise enough cash to do some fun stuff with come June WCQ.

-Good PR boost

-Would be great footy….and it would be pretty cool to see an additional “Voyageurs” title prize sought after by clubs

Yep, its not exactly the most original idea but if I can just get the 'name' out on a few peoples tongue, that gives it legitimacy, I'm trying to build an unstoppable snowball, just hoping the finish isn't indian jonesy. It'll probably take weeks to get my first verbal commitment if I even get one, but I'll try and keep everyone informed of my progress. Ohh and I hypothetically mentioned I'd take 50% of/if any profit, if I end up doing almost all the work on my own and it works, you bet your ass I'll take my share hahah.

edit: the best thing we can probably do is just talk about it, even if someone was disagreeing with some parts (as long as their not bat **** crazy) it's literally just the most basic way to raise somethings profile. For example, how many award shows, film festivals, sports leagues seem completely stupid when it's the First Annual Whatever but if you manage to do even a fashion show 10 years straight, people suddenly start talking about it like they were always there and it's the greatest thing ever/always was. It's kinda annoying but it's profitable

[Lord Bob]

never mind

[Juby]

CSA person I talked too seemed at best ambiguous, I think their concerned about possible conflicting sponsorship interests. Also mentioned personel issues, they obviously didn't discourage the project in any way but at the very best(remember they didnt say this, I'm appraising the whole thing), they might be interested in hearing from me if I've gotten more work done on my own (to be fair they might just be hopeful it happens on it's own (naturally)).

So square one again (believe me, that's not too bad, sometimes ideas get shot down, nothing is better then getting shot down).

I am now going to use my limited club contacts to try and get hopefully a couple on board as a starting point.

[hamiltonfan]

Juby, your efforts are great. Thanks

However, I am STRONGLY against the idea of any personal gains on the use of the Voyageurs name and a Voyageurs titled trophy.

If you are interested in turning a profit for yourself, I'm in fully support of your plan....just don't use the Voyageur name.

I'd like to see a group interested (myself being one) in organizing this and go for it, use our network, our resources and our pull in the soccer community to make it a smashing financial and social success.

funding put towards pulling off the biggest TIFO and supporters bang in Canada soccer history come June's WCQ....or whatever else we want to spend on

[Juby]

Juby, your efforts are great. Thanks

However, I am STRONGLY against the idea of any personal gains on the use of the Voyageurs name and a Voyageurs titled trophy.

If you are interested in turning a profit for yourself, I'm in fully support of your plan....just don't use the Voyageur name.

I'd like to see a group interested (myself being one) in organizing this and go for it, use our network, our resources and our pull in the soccer community to make it a smashing financial and social success.

funding put towards pulling off the biggest TIFO and supporters bang in Canada soccer history come June's WCQ....or whatever else we want to spend on

I'd have no problem with changing the name (to be honest though, in the pitch I am saying 'teams that are somewhat between Voyageurs cup and challenge cup' so their will be a subtle name drop anyway but it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to change the name up a bit. The only thing I would ask is that we hear from a decent number of members (tbh, if you were a small minority I could probably go ahead with the v-cup name).

That said, I am not about to bother all my contacts, attempt to raise money and generally invest a tonne of my time for free (under any name i'm still pledging to give 50% to the V's), it's impossible. The only way I could justify it is if a few people stepped up with more team contacts or found a few sponsors themselves. But in all honesty, if I have to do everything myself, I feel like I would be entitled to whatever profit I made (in this case after I've paid 50% 'to use the name' even though it's your %50 anyway). It's up to you guys, my stance is I want this done anyways and I don't work for free (at least no one here has to pony up a dime).

Possible news tonight, I might have news to report on the first possible CONDITIONAL (key word) verbal commitment for a club late tonight

[hamiltonfan]

I'd like to see a group interested (myself being one) in organizing this and go for it, use our network, our resources and our pull in the soccer community to make it a smashing financial and social success.

Others thoughts?

[Juby]

Others thoughts?

yes, I need to start getting contacts, *trying not to use resources* and our pull, I don't want to be rude but I said that too when I mentioned what I'd need, and as of yet, i'm still waiting.

[Guest Ed]

That name is sacred, no way would I allow just anyone to use it in a competition.

[Lord Bob]

Sorry for my initial endorsement; I skimmed the first post and didn't realize it would be a for-profit initiative. I realize that not many people are willing to volunteer that level of time and resource, but putting the Voyageurs name on a commercial venture of uncertain dimensions and prospects is something I'd want to think about.

[Juby]

Edit:Just so everyone knows, this post isn't AT Lord Bob. just a general rant explaining how business works*sigh* sorry, I'm an ass

Fine, I'll think of a new name tomorrow. But just to be clear, this is 50% for profit...for the V's. I was just saying that it's well and dandy to make it a team effort, but if I end up calling all teams personally, and if I end up getting all the sponsors, and if I end up securing the tv deal, and getting everything ready then really? I literally said talk, discuss, bring ideas, no one's proffered any links, your just talking about the name (I hate to say it but it's the team names that are going to bring in a few new fans (turn low level soccer fans into potential v's????) and sponsors) and jumping ahead to event concerns, is it just the idea of paying somebody to something no one else seems to be willing to do?

I will be seriously bitter if you all make a fuss and then it doesn't get done, it's one thing to take over and get it done but if you turn me away because of the idea of us (yes us, half me for doing the work) making a bit of money for our time in soccer(soccer is business)? I'm just saying you better get this done if your going to reject the guy who tells you 'I'll get it all done, you just relax and talk about something you've probably wanted to do for years, the buzz will help'.

I am having a little trouble comprehending this, say I, me, generate you 25 000 for 25 000 himself, your not losing money unless you were going to do it yourself, literally your not going to get any one person who's willing to do all this for free so until I see some help pop up, I have to assume I'll get compensated after I've successfully staged the event. Part of me is concerned you think calling sponsors (making the money so this thing breaks even before gate) is something that can be done collectively, It's fine to say were pitching this as a group, but someone has to put their name on the sale and do the actual work. This is the type of position people get paid for anyway (promoter) so why I'm taking heat is bizarre, the only thing I did different then literally everything like this is I admitted their'd be a potentially paid position beforehand instead of hiding it till later (generally promoters and agents don't talk about their chunk too much because it's not a selling point) because I knew not everyone would realize what all an 'event' like this requires. If I can't make money, and you don't get it done all not-for-profit, someone else will just wind up making money and not sharing it...just think this through...

As for right now, I'm going forward with as yet to be named tournament (which is just another sponsorship option). In fact, if any mod notices this, change the title to ''YOUR SPONSOR HERE' Cup Invitational'. Right now I'm just organizing something theirs a definate need for, once I actually get a few offers of concrete help for free, then I'll consider working for free too but if I do it all... Are you really telling me you guys would hate a legitimate revenue source for the V's because the person doing all the work made money...too (player haters?)

[Juby]

That name is sacred, no way would I allow just anyone to use it in a competition.

Not even a V? organizing the next tier of canadian soccer clubs into a tournament? And seriously, I know we got into a few arguements guy but could you say it without being passive aggressive, maybe you could put in more words about the idea then you spend trying to insult me?

edit: just so were clear, I'm just teasing him for being dramatic, I'm not going to use the v-name unless people now go out of their way to support it, ie tell me to not let the first few ruin things.

I have a promise for the board, if you guys can get further then me (more teams), I'll hand over everything I've got going to seal the deal and call it a day, I'm making one exception though, if you guys get a couple more quality teams on board a tournament then I do, but then turn around and ask me 'how do you actually succeed in getting sponsors' All the naysayers should concede and we'll make up some stupid title for me to run it annually, best case scenario, both groups are neck and neck and we end up hosting two tournaments! (one on each coast???)

[Juby]

I have my first team with a conditional verbal commitment, someone who know knows me and is curious can get at me if I can trust you to be quiet so we can verify I'm not lieing without saying too much too soon. In other words, so you could get optimistic, rather then suspicious (I'm not judging, I know the feeling too) off my updates.

[Lord Bob]

Juby, I completely understand your wanting to make a buck off your hard work. I don't work for free; who does? If I were putting hours of my time and a lot of my personal credibility into organizing a tournament then I'd bloody want to see something for my trouble.

It's not about not trusting you either or not thinking you're a true-red Voyageur.

I'm hesitant of committing the Voyageurs' name to this enterprise simply out of apprehension that the name of Canada's national supporters' group shouldn't be perceived as being used to make a buck for somebody. Your tournament sounds like a great idea but it might be more valuable for you to call it the Juby is Awesome Shield and keep 100% of the profit than for us to call it the Voyageurs Shield and you keep 50% of the profit.

(And, for my personal part, I'm not even wholly convinced of what I just said.)

[Juby]

Juby, I completely understand your wanting to make a buck off your hard work. I don't work for free; who does? If I were putting hours of my time and a lot of my personal credibility into organizing a tournament then I'd bloody want to see something for my trouble.

It's not about not trusting you either or not thinking you're a true-red Voyageur.

I'm hesitant of committing the Voyageurs' name to this enterprise simply out of apprehension that the name of Canada's national supporters' group shouldn't be perceived as being used to make a buck for somebody. Your tournament sounds like a great idea but it might be more valuable for you to call it the Juby is Awesome Shield and keep 100% of the profit than for us to call it the Voyageurs Shield and you keep 50% of the profit.

(And, for my personal part, I'm not even wholly convinced of what I just said.)

I was scared I was going to have to clarify things this morning but THANK YOU for not being a dick about, I just wanted to say I've said about three times that I am not using the V's title, I said that in like post 3, in fact a few posts ago I announced it was now the 'Your Sponsor Here' Cup Invitational. (and a couple posts back I said your all going to have make a huge fuss for it to even get me to consider giving it a V-title)

The only thing that potentially pisses me off about this, is I get the feeling a bunch of people are sitting here over estimating the value of the V's brand, and if I get this event together successfully, your all going to want to get some publicity off the event after making a silly fuss. You know I offered 50%, just to be nice and some people wanted it all (and to pretend they were doing the work) and now you are all just damn lucky I'm not bitter and I'm going to give 50% for nothing but to help the V's in general. It's the bizarre though, the tone of some people (not lord bob) reads like I'm taking money rather than trying to make YOU ALL money).

[xcalibre]

I'm not an influential member by any means (have gone by Scott Ferguson and themodelcitizen at various times over the years but was always a cash-strapped student unable to contribute), but it sounds like a great idea... if its done right and we get him to sign some kind of undertaking I don't see why its not worth doing -- we all want a tournament like this to happen, but we're not going to do it ourselves (at least I'm not). The way I see it, the other option is to recruit some kind of event planner/promotions company to do it -- and I'd trust them about as far as I could throw them. If a Vee is willing to do it for us, why not let it happen? We could make the use of the Vs' name conditional on getting a certain number/level of teams or whatever conditions are appropriate.

[hamiltonfan]

Much planning and work to be done before teams are being invited. I'd like to see a group and get this done in a very professional manner, for the Voyageurs by the Voyageurs. Howeverm congrats on securing a club.

Something simllar to the Disney Pro Tournement or Carolina Challenge Cup, both preseason tourny. This could become an annual thing and great revuene driver for the group. 10K is a reasonable target.

[Juby]

Much planning and work to be done before teams are being invited. I'd like to see a group and get this done in a very professional manner, for the Voyageurs by the Voyageurs. Howeverm congrats on securing a club.

Something simllar to the Disney Pro Tournement or Carolina Challenge Cup, both preseason tourny. This could become an annual thing and great revuene driver for the group. 10K is a reasonable target.

...that middle bit of rhetoric that is completely off base, you do realize I'm doing this (by a voyageur) for Canadian soccer... (so passively aggressively implying I'm not a V, doing this for V's because I expect to get paid for working is just acting like Eyerybody Love's Raymond's Mom). btw, I've decided I don't even want the v-tag anymore, too often your left explaining it's not 'voyeur' then getting actual brand recognition. And how in holy hell is this for the V's if it's non profit, the website doesn't run on eagerness? Can you give anyone any reason why making money would look bad? Were a fan group, not a charity, it's not illegal to make money. This needs to get done to create some infrastructure, generate fans, and revenue for the v's, not just so that the current V's can have a party and more to do. Avoiding the business aspect of this endeavour is just incorrect

And I don't want to be a dick (in fact if I was, I'd keep quiet here) but theirs a hugely amateur mistake in that first bit, you will never 'get this done in a professional manner' if you don't get a grip on what your doing. Can someone help him out? The only reason I'm not saying it overtly is because it will make my job easier if I don't have to follow up with the exact same idea after you guys do this in the exact wrong order and make the whole idea look amateur (that's a hint, If you go to the wrong people first, they will know you don't know what your doing, ask you why you came to them, and then laugh you out of the room (and when I get their at the correct time, with the same idea, he's bound to already think poorly of the whole idea) ( And seriously, how fair is it exactly, if instead of calling this a group project and getting me to do all the ****ty work, you just make me sit here and teach you how to do my job? That's partly why I don't want to tell you, I want you to start to realize exactly what your talking about, I have only called a few people and I'm already stressed out just by committing my name to something that isn't a sure thing (do you realize that you'll feel most stupid to the people who signed on if it fails? it's not a flippant responsibility))

And you know what, if you do waste a lot of time, ruin connections and take what little steam I got just to get nowhere, and we are left with no tournament between us then you in all honesty are the wanker in a situation like this:

Kid 1 "I'll grab those berries you can't reach if you give me half"

Kid 2 "HALF, it's on my lawn, their all mine, I can get them myself anyway, pass me that lighter"

And one final thing, what is with the money phobia (Like when you act like not-for-profit = good and for profit = bad? Your just off topic and showing poor business acumen, it's like me making a fuss to a teacher about her brand of car to get a trip canceled so I could take my kids myself (playing a moral card dishonestly). A profitable tournament is a lot more likely to be an annual success, a profit is a lot more likely if you do everything professionally. You do realize 'sponsorship' money I talk of doesn't exist until I make it right? Their isn't a pile of money waiting for you to claim if you push me out, you'll just find yourself realizing you need individuals to sell to sponsors (qualified individuals no less) and the V's have almost no brand power when your calling businesses. And I will give you one bit of professional advice, who do you think will end up with a better war chest to actually do a professional job? The guys who have 10K goal, or the guy who makes 50 cents on every dollar of profit? Why is it better to make less money pretending we're above capitalism (you do realize the V's in general have financial needs too right(projects, site etc)? Needs that I'm trying to create a revenue source for and you are trying to eliminate because you'd rather make no money then see me make money for doing work your only assuming you could do?). I'm just paranoid your all going to go around with the best intentions and completely ruin every source I'll have to call too by looking like a big eager fan group giving amateur presentations,

So in summation, profits are good, LOSSES/NO PROFIT = BAD (losses we are already absorbing) and to be honest, people have been making the biggest fuss because my concept is for profit *gasp*, pretending there's anything wrong with that is literally wasting time trying to make me look poorly inaccurately (by acting like your above profit). If it's wrong to get paid for work, 80% of the world is guilty, so why I am criticized for it (smear much? why don't I try and win argument by accusing opponents of having to use the bathroom?)

[hamiltonfan]

I'd only want to set that standards as high as possible if the Voyageurs name was attached, such could take a year of planning.

Good luck with your project, look forward to seeing it progress.

[Juby]

I'd only want to set that standards as high as possible if the Voyageurs name was attached, such could take a year of planning.

Good luck with your project, look forward to seeing it progress.

*simmering down*

One thing I'll reiterate as advice is something like a 'fundraising goal' is not enough, you need to have a strong pitch and a strong salesman and keep going until you have nothing at all possible to sell (don't be satisfied when you hit a 'point') or else you will be limiting the standards you are hoping to drive up.

As I said before I'm not calling it a V name anything, so it doesn't matter (I only offered it to help you guys anyway...).

Finally, I will tell you your big error if make sure you have an effective pitch, a qualified person to deliver the pitch (not someone who thinks they can and winds up stammering the whole way through) and take all the careful planning your talking about. I have the ability to make these pitches immidiately. In all honesty I want to get the ball rolling and organize something for this year so if I can make my pitches from now til mid January without sounding like a broken record (and then you can wait for a good time for 2013 and not sound repetitive yourselves). I do worry if I tell you too much, you'll rush out and amateurishly ruin potential clubs/sponsors(I don't know you) however I will tell you the error: Teams first (I tried to sneak an early win with the CSA, no luck), you need the teams to sell it to a possible tv station (any tv station), then you have televised event to sell to sponsors which is far more profitable. If you do it any other way, (and even doing it this way sometimes) your just another imaginative person.

I don't want to be a prik but if I call someone, and their pissed off at the idea because of your pitch(wasted their time, got upset, amateurish behaviour), I will be livid at being sabotaged because it will literally mean you guys were too stingy to do it professionally (which is quite a statement considering I offered to do it for no up front cash). And it's the little things like having a 'fundraising goal', being offended by profit (profit = success, profit helps for next year) and being more interested in a planning committee then step 1 that really worries me about a big eager group assuming they can do it based on the number of people.

You know what does bother me though, you wouldn't be doing anything if I didn't actually start making moves, so this whole thing resembles a one kid who only wants a toy when someone else picks it up. Sorry, I shouldn't be rude, but that's exactly what it is, and now I have less support from here because of silly **** like that. ('hey, don't support him, he's actually doing stuff, we could do better if we wait and just do what we always do, talk, plan and wish')

I will give you an update on my status:

My team 1 is a CSL squad, because of this 'conditional commitment', I have an improved chance of filling teams 6, 7 and 8 with strong CSL clubs. However my focus is on the interleague angle, so I am going to try and get teams from other leagues before I fill it out with, for 2012 at least, will be the strongest available squads.

The home venue is already set, the conditionally committed club is it's tenant so relevant estimates will be ready when I get a solid 8 teams. (after that first year, I'll have tables to pick champions, and a previous tournament to increase spots for leagues that earned them by competing well the previous year)

[Grizzly]

Juby, how is anyone, Voyageur or not, supposed to take you serious with the rambling, incomprehensible pissed off posts you are writing?

[Juby]

Juby, how is anyone, Voyageur or not, supposed to take you serious with the rambling, incomprehensible pissed off posts you are writing?

edit: btw, grizz is responding to a post where I gave hamilton some key advice not when I was actually pissed..

Well it doesn't help when I have the peanut gallery poking me with a stick. How does it help to constantly try and make someone look bad just for actually doing something? Something we all apparently want? And how come people I don't get along with, like yourself, keep coming in just to make rude, off topic unproductive posts (smear much?)? Maybe I'm pissed because I have to deal with a lot of unreasonable criticism (like profit = bad???). Your just another example of someone trying to derail actual effort just to insult me (what exactly did you add to the topic?). You literally refuse to say anything to me if you can't form it into an insult so why talk now, off topic? (as we all know, grizz takes things very personally and holds grudges, it's the only reason he talks to me)

Remember last time you called a post of mine incomprehensible? You joined a topic just to say that, and I said 'how' and you pointed out a run on sentence you read poorly in the last paragraph (I think you didn't realize you had to read what it was responding to as well aha)? Seriously, how many of your near 8000 posts are just burr snottiness and time wasting? I look pissed because I stood up for myself from foolish posts, whats your excuse for looking very small...

Even if I think his criticism is unreasonable, at least Hamiltonfan has been on topic and engaging in the subject matter, a couple people here are offering...nothing, just trying to be rude (you guys really have nothing better to do then smear me for actually trying to do something? I don't think I need to make fun of you for that, it's kinda sad already).

Besides, 95% of the people I'm calling, sorry to bruise your ego's, don't follow the forum. I was hoping you'd rationally get on board and generate buzz but some people would rather try to get their digs in when they see me putting myself out there, despite what it could mean for canadian soccer

Besides, I'm going to make a new thread when I got the right title so you'll have to come up with new petty angles to insult me to not look trollish, aha

[Admin]

CSA person I talked too seemed at best ambiguous, I think their concerned about possible conflicting sponsorship interests. Also mentioned personel issues, they obviously didn't discourage the project in any way but at the very best(remember they didnt say this, I'm appraising the whole thing), they might be interested in hearing from me if I've gotten more work done on my own (to be fair they might just be hopeful it happens on it's own (naturally)).

So square one again (believe me, that's not too bad, sometimes ideas get shot down, nothing is better then getting shot down).

I am now going to use my limited club contacts to try and get hopefully a couple on board as a starting point.

Are you calling the CSA and calling it the Voyageurs ... anything?

[Juby]

No, I was talking about creating a cup between the challenge cup and the V cup, at the time I wasn't to firm on the title (as I was considering, and now decided to sell it). Also you should also realize I didn't call the whole CSA or anything. Jeez Louise I don't even want the name anymore, settle down, the only reason I did was because I wanted to create it now and make it a revenue source for the V's. If you all really want me to do it and keep all the potential earnings just ask, I was doing the V's a favour by trying to include you, not the other way around.

BTW, while I have you, if I start a new thread with the official title can I report it as spam and get it deleted if a certain half dozen people come in and are completely off topic just to insult me? (I get sick of grizz's, 'as someone who never talks to you except to be rude, I'd like to say something rude' posts where he tries to act like he's being helpful instead of purposely wasting time.

To be honest its sound like you all rather not have this happen then have it happen by my effort

Are you calling the CSA and calling it the Voyageurs ... anything?