dr. killinger Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 So the consensus in the post game thread is that the team lacked creativity, vision and skill in the middle of the pitch. "If only we had Hutch back," people say, "then the goals would flow again." But it is never a good idea to base a system around a single player who has a certain skill set no other player on the team has. Hutch keeps the ball moving, rarely loses the ball, can run at a defender, sets the tempo of attack and plays pretty good defense as well. No other center-mid that Hart plays has that combination (de Guzman can show it at times, but he is better playing further back). So if Hart is going to continue to use the same formation he uses with Hutch, then he is going to have to find a player who has similar skill sets to him. Which sucks for him, because there are no established Canadian players who fit the bill. But that doesn't mean he is out of options. 1. Di Chara- kid has similar physical characteristics and playing style to Hutch (at least from the highlights I've seen from uno). Obviously he is still developing as a player. 2. NASL kids- Saiko or Gyorio don't posses near the skill or savvy as Hutch (yet), but they play a similar position for their clubs and have been getting good reviews while playing against opponents who are better than St. Kitts. 3. Jakovic-hear me out, he is one of the better CBs in MLS when it comes to touch on the ball and passing. But he is prone to lapses in judgment in the back. Why not move him forward where he can better dictate the game while having a line of defense behind him? Do you guys have any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic when we do not have Hutch? How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic period. And St. K and N do not have any players other than the injured Harris who play at the level of even our 3rd division players. We should not need Hutch to beat them convincingly. The problem never was and never is that Hutch is absent. The problem is that a professional coach is absent. Yes we are better with Hutch than without but when he is not available we need to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alphonso Applegate Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 yeah, if we don't have Hutch and can't play the same without him, than the coach has to make some tactical changes. Almost no manager I can think of refuses to change tactics from game to game, especially if there are injuries. Hart needs to figure out a way to make us more dynamic in our attacking when we don't have Hutch, not some other player needs to step up and fill Atiba's shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 His name is Josh Simpson! If David Silva can play centrally so can JS! yeesh, why is this only obvious to me? When was the last time you saw Simpson create or score off the wing? Compare that to what he creates for others and for himself when drifting in centrally. (honest question - where on pitch does he play in Turkey?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Saiko. It's very disappointing Hart didn't call him into camp. What more does he have to do? Hart calls in Nana who has played like crap/been injured all year but won't call in a creative player when it's obvious we need one. 10 bucks says he starts 2 DMF's next game again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ShWag Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 ThiKu - not quite as convinced as you are about Simpson in the middle but it can't hurt to try at this point. I will say that where Simpson creates best is in space, which is not necessarily at a premium in Hutch's position. I would almost rather see him as a second out-and-out striker up front. But again, we won't know until we try. Simpson in the 10-spot certainly wouldn't produce play as smooth or pretty as Atiba does, but if he sets up or scores some goals there I don't think any of us would really care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I wouldn't argue Simpson playing as a striker. But I think Simpson and Hutch need to be played centrally with a ball winner behind and a guy like Ricketts or Occean in front....Jackson, De Ro, Hume (two of) on the wings.....(I actually want to see De Jong wide left, TBH, as well). If Simpson and Hutch both central Hutch would naturally sit a bit deeper and Simpson a bit higher....it'd work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic when we do not have Hutch? How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic period. And St. K and N do not have any players other than the injured Harris who play at the level of even our 3rd division players. We should not need Hutch to beat them convincingly. The problem never was and never is that Hutch is absent. The problem is that a professional coach is absent. Yes we are better with Hutch than without but when he is not available we need to deal with it. I think this is closest to the answer. Looking at the quality of the team we just played on paper, if we can't pull something out with the players we have, there are serious problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic when we do not have Hutch? How about bring in a coach who can formulate some sort of reasonable tactic period. And St. K and N do not have any players other than the injured Harris who play at the level of even our 3rd division players. We should not need Hutch to beat them convincingly. The problem never was and never is that Hutch is absent. The problem is that a professional coach is absent. Yes we are better with Hutch than without but when he is not available we need to deal with it. +1 If we need to depend on Hutch now what happens if we get to the Hex? With the players available we still have quality and it's been wasted. We need a new coach BAD. Hart simply can't adapt, he's literally done NOTHING tactically to solve the problems we've been having since the Gold Cup. You can tell our attack is going to break down before it even get's started, we don't have the skill to play an attacking version of the formation we play.. sure we can play it vs. stronger teams and hit them on the break but if we are the stronger team we need 2 strikers, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Gagne Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 +1 If we need to depend on Hutch now what happens if we get to the Hex? With the players available we still have quality and it's been wasted. We need a new coach BAD. Hart simply can't adapt, he's literally done NOTHING tactically to solve the problems we've been having since the Gold Cup. You can tell our attack is going to break down before it even get's started, we don't have the skill to play an attacking version of the formation we play.. sure we can play it vs. stronger teams and hit them on the break but if we are the stronger team we need 2 strikers, plain and simple. +2 I'll go further still, I think if we're going to sac him, the time to do it is now, with a decent interval between now and the next round. Realistically I think we're stuck with him, but the CSA has supported this team more than any in the past; the fans have gotten behind the team like no other qualifying run, and if we fizzle out of the next round (2011 Gold Cup style) in the fashion that we've been playing of late all of that momentum and investment will once again be lost. The players like him, and it would rock the boat significantly, as well as cause significant bitterness to turf him in the middle of a qualifying cycle. However, we have to be realistic and Hart is not the guy who's going to get the most out of the players and get the results. Plus firing him might cause bitterness, but so will crashing out of the next round like we crashed out of the Gold cup, so I say role the dice, pay top dollar to a real coach and send a simple message... we're better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler453 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 +2 I'll go further still, I think if we're going to sac him, the time to do it is now, with a decent interval between now and the next round. Realistically I think we're stuck with him, but the CSA has supported this team more than any in the past; the fans have gotten behind the team like no other qualifying run, and if we fizzle out of the next round (2011 Gold Cup style) in the fashion that we've been playing of late all of that momentum and investment will once again be lost. The players like him, and it would rock the boat significantly, as well as cause significant bitterness to turf him in the middle of a qualifying cycle. However, we have to be realistic and Hart is not the guy who's going to get the most out of the players and get the results. Plus firing him might cause bitterness, but so will crashing out of the next round like we crashed out of the Gold cup, so I say role the dice, pay top dollar to a real coach and send a simple message... we're better than this. I'm sure we would have a few friendlies between Tuesday and the start of round 3. We call the players a bit earlier for each of those friendlies leaving lots of time and a few games for the players to get familiarized with the new tactics. Believe me, if we hired a better coach, the players would adapt and do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So our lack of depth at certain positions means we should fire the coach? Come on guys. And who do you have in mind to replace him that the CSA can afford? I for one would like to see Di Chara playing mini-me-hutch type of role Tuesday to see how he does at it. We really need to develop more quality players at all positions because we are thin just about everywhere.. Simpson could be interesting but we would lose his speed out wide. He has been very effective in the wing role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So our lack of depth at certain positions means we should fire the coach? Come on guys. And who do you have in mind to replace him that the CSA can afford? I for one would like to see Di Chara playing mini-me-hutch type of role Tuesday to see how he does at it. We really need to develop more quality players at all positions because we are thin just about everywhere.. Simpson could be interesting but we would lose his speed out wide. He has been very effective in the wing role. Get a clue man, depth was the problem last night?!?! Di Chiara was called?!?! Hart out, me and my crew will be sending the message Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villus Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Without Hutch and vs these teams we should have been employing a 4-4-2. I like Hart, but hes not getting the job done, tactically hes not adapting or bringing any new ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 If 4-4-2 really the "idea" everyone is clamoring for? Sounds like a return to the past, seems like tactically many teams worldwide have stepped beyond it. The main thing I see lacking out there is motivation. These guys look like they are on vacation out there and it's going to boomerang back to bite them in the ass when the opposing team doesn't have 38 year old amateurs on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Was coaching responsible for our dreadful passing last night? The poor finishing? The poor creativity in midfield? No, no and no. So what is changing coaches going to do? Better tactics? Here is a better tactic, pass the ball accurately with the correct amount of pace to your teammates and receive the ball like it was velco'd to your foot. That was a major tactic that was missing last night. Seriously I am concerned by having 2 draws out of our games against weak teams. Of course I am but when I see the second half last night I ask why can't we pass like they did? It has nothing to do with tactics and formations or coaching. Sorry but we disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 The poor passing is largely a problem with individual players but there were some major concerns in that game that could be attributed to Hart. These include, but are not limited to, poor aerial marking in defence, far too much space being given in midfield, and a team that overall simply didn't look up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 The poor passing is largely a problem with individual players but there were some major concerns in that game that could be attributed to Hart. These include, but are not limited to, poor aerial marking in defence, far too much space being given in midfield, and a team that overall simply didn't look up for it. Poor aerial marking on defense is a coaches problem? We disagree on that one as well. Look if these full time pros can't mark someone that is just so basic and shows our players were not in it mentally. As I said during the game "lucky for us they can't shoot". And yes we were real lucky Tuesday's game isn't for first place in our group. They could have stolen 3 points off us. I'm hoping for a much better performance on Tuesday all over the field. I look at the last game and see players who were making horrible passes all over the place and I really think we need to address a lot of things but focus on the basics. Yes we might get better results with a different coach, we could also get worse! What we really could use are players who can make and receive passes, mark players and finish their chances. All the things you mentioned are true but that comes down to players not executing the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So our lack of depth at certain positions means we should fire the coach? Come on guys. And who do you have in mind to replace him that the CSA can afford? I for one would like to see Di Chara playing mini-me-hutch type of role Tuesday to see how he does at it. We really need to develop more quality players at all positions because we are thin just about everywhere.. Simpson could be interesting but we would lose his speed out wide. He has been very effective in the wing role. Your making too much sense. People are seeing scoring woes and think that this is something new. Our top goal scorer all time has 19 goals and he has been retired for almost twenty years. That would sit something like eight place on the honduran and costa rican side. Carlo costly of honduras has been on their nt for only four years and already has twenty goals. You wouldnt want to look at other national sides because thatstat is too embarassing for our nt. How many coaches have we had in the last thirty years? Why the hell does anyone think that there is a magic wand out there that a new coach can wave and change this where no one else has been successfull. Its frustating as hell to read that people think that hutchison, our best player, can be replaced with a nineteen year old player that no one knows anything about, whose proffessional accomplishments are modest, and whose been evaluated by the coaching staff (who actually have seen him) already. Equally its frustating to think that some believe that an NASL player can replace hutch. Or that that David Silva can be compared to Josh Simpson. Unless we get a holdout or two to commit, We will have scoring woes in the next round as well but we might still advance to the hex. Thats what we are hoping for. But please, lets stop being delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brethers Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 But these players are some of the better ones we've had for a while. Hitch, Mckenna, Hainault, Edgar, Simpson, Kluka, Jackson, Dero and deguz until recently, Johnson etc all play at a high standard and perform well. They don't get coached appropriately when with Hart. The tactics are one dimensional and he has no pln b. And for gods sake he is the coach he should be the first one to tell the players the wind is swirling and Jackson's up top so no long balls, and make sure they keep their passes crisp on a bumpy surface. Coaching is a massive part of football and we suck donkey dick at it currently. It's akso the coach's job to make sure the player is motivated to wear the maple leaf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 His name is Josh Simpson! If David Silva can play centrally so can JS! yeesh, why is this only obvious to me? When was the last time you saw Simpson create or score off the wing? Compare that to what he creates for others and for himself when drifting in centrally. (honest question - where on pitch does he play in Turkey?) He plays in exactly the same place in Turkey that he does for Canada but the similarities end there. And I think the similarities stop there mostly because we have a coach who does not understand anything about his role in Turkey and how to recreate it. Indeed if Hart did understand how he plays in Turkey and who we have available for him to play with I think he would probably not even try to recreate it. And yes, Simpson creates and scores in Turkey and even crosses fairly well mostly because he does not have to make a pinpoint cross to the single guy that is in the box like for Canada. And he has several players with whom he can pass to in Turkey where here only Hutch and Friend when he plays seem to be able to pass with him. Most of the time he is isolated with us and double teamed by the opposition so he is unable to do what he does in Turkey. DeRo really kills Simpson because he is never where one expects him to be and even though one would expect him to be able to pass with Simpson the reality is something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 So our lack of depth at certain positions means we should fire the coach? Come on guys. And who do you have in mind to replace him that the CSA can afford? I for one would like to see Di Chara playing mini-me-hutch type of role Tuesday to see how he does at it. We really need to develop more quality players at all positions because we are thin just about everywhere.. Simpson could be interesting but we would lose his speed out wide. He has been very effective in the wing role. You are saying "Come on, guys" because we are not impressed by the coach yet haven't even noticed that DiChiara was not called. Or that when he was called, Hart did not play him or that he is a defensive midfielder and not an attacking midfielder like Hutch. Come on tmcmurph, I like DiChiara and have been impressed watching him in Russia so far but a replacement for Hutch he is not. Hutch is one of the best players in CONCACAF now yet other teams best players get injured and they seem to manage without them including many teams whose rosters aren't terribly impressive. Other teams also hire coaches with qualifications, experience and a record of success while we give our players amateur coaches. The lowest league any of our player's plays in is the German 3rd division yet we have a coach who if he sent in his resume for a 3rd division opening they would throw it in the waste basket. If Hart were looking for a coaching job in Germany he would be looking at 5th or 6th division. It is not hard to see the weak link in the Canadian national teams chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Coaches have a much greater impact on how a team looks than many seem to want to accept. A Coach designs the system for the players on the field. As any coaching manual will tell you, the system needs to be designed to fit the players. In addition, the Coach of a National Team can also look for other eligible players to fill holes. Building a good team is not about picking the 10 most skillful plus the best keeper available and throwing them onto the field. Heck, even the 1970 Brazil WC team had its players filling roles and having responsibilities to support the team and also fit them individually. Yes players make mistakes and have off-games that affect the quality of the team's performance. The quality of Canada's men national team has not improved. In fact, it seems to be regressing. I will echo what others have said. The individual talent is enough for us to qualify for WC Brazil if it was properly organized to suit. And what many seem to want to ignore is that our insistence to go into competition with an inexperienced coach may actually be causing reluctance among our best eligible players to commit to the Canadian cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 **** it, let's put Alderson in that role. I've seen more out of that kid than I've seen out of most over the last couple games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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