Offseason TFC player thread. Who to keep....

[deschamp86]

However, it's not uncommon for very young players to take a step backwards as well and sometimes hit the "glass ceiling" with what they can do. Hopefully, these guys will continue to progress.

I suspect this is why Winter continually speaks about bringing them along slowly into the first team. Lack of depth probably gave them a bigger role in the team than he might have liked.

[BearcatSA]

glass half empty?

More like guarded optimism and my particular sense of perspective.

[Canuck Oranje]

More like guarded optimism and my particular sense of perspective.

While admittedly I was speculating on how the young players on this team would develop, I don't think it is without perspective.

First of all, from my perspective of Dutch development coaches, the key point is that they will play a player if they think he is capable and ready regardless of his age. Ajax is a Dutch club that has always done that. In fact, Winter, himself, played his first senior game with Ajax at 19.

Secondly, we in North America tend to underestimate just how much of a priority is placed on player development by some professional clubs. Ajax in one of those examples. I could also list off a number of Brazilian clubs that do the same thing. I mention this because I doubt Winter and de Klerk would risk the development of valuable young players in order to get another win or two. Having these young players play a dozen games or so is developing these players at a pace that they can manage.

Regarding young player development, there are some young players that "take a step backwards" but it's usually because they have an injury or try to move to a higher quality league too quickly. Attitudinal issues can also come into play. More often though, it is not a step backwards but that their development plateaus. From following player development in Brazil, it seems that players are already pushed aside at 22-23 if they do not continue to improve. At the same time, players who are already getting some good playing time at 18-19 are more likely to continue to develop than a 22-23 year old beginning to get good playing time. That is especially if they stay in the development environment that brought them to the surface.

We should also not forget that Plata is also 19 and should be treated in the same way as the young Canadians. He played more because he had been more experienced when arriving with TFC. Still, I'm sure the coaches are careful with him as well. The biggest risk to Plata's development is leaving TFC for Europe at this stage. As a smallish player in the highly competitive environment at a European club, I suspect he would get lost. For that reason, it is not just wishful thinking that he stay in Toronto. I think it would be the best for his development to stay. And I suspect that LDU knows that.

I will say again that we should at least acknowledge that TFC currently has world class development expertise. Some could argue that Winter was inexperienced as a head coach and lacked knowledge of how MLS worked when he came but it can also be argued that he and de Klerk are highly experienced development coaches. Winter also has playing experience that, I would argue, exceeds most coaches in North America. Klinsman knew that and that's why they were recommended to TFC.

As Canadians, we have a tendency to downplay the talent we have in Canada, I'm just pointing out that Stinson, Morgan, and Henry, from my experiences attending U19 games in Brazil and senior games in both Brazil and the Netherlands, these young players are comparable to those playing the same positions in these two countries at their age. Yes, we will not know for sure but I suspect most TFC fans will be pleasantly surprised in a couple of years by at least one of them.

[Gian-Luca]

The interview on the tfc tv site with Dunfield & Eckersley (just after their two former Manchester clubs played each other) is quite good value; also loved what De Klerk had to say about playing and developing Canadians in the 4 part press conference with him, Winter & Mariner. It's a shame TFC didn't have these guys (or someone else comparable) from the franchise's start.

[BearcatSA]

Regarding young player development, there are some young players that "take a step backwards" but it's usually because they have an injury or try to move to a higher quality league too quickly. Attitudinal issues can also come into play. More often though, it is not a step backwards but that their development plateaus.

That's why I referred to it as a "glass ceiling," and if you don't appear to be playing as well as the previous year it looks like you're taking a step backwards. The big problem is with a player's development not meeting expectations that may be too lofty. I totally agree that as this youth development program/model continues to evolve it's very likely that even more influential talent will come through the academy and produce for this club. Where I tend to quibble about is how far individual players will rise. For instance, I think you and I differ on how far someone like Stinson will go, but that's that. I was pleased to see Morgan become the team's first choice LB (in fact, I plugged for it on this forum) but he has some holes in his defensive game that hopefully will be corrected with experience and responding well to coaching.

I'm hoping all these guys will develop in a big way but I have also seen guys from big time widely respected developmental programs looking like "someone to watch" as a U20 or thereabouts and then never really meeting those expectations. Conversely, there are other guys who take the less heralded, late bloomer route to success. So like I said, from my perspective I have a guarded optimism.

[Oranje]

Not sure where to put this but it’s a short article about Frings thoughts about MLS:

http://www.soccerway.com/news/2011/October/28/frings-defends-mls/

[Gian-Luca]

Well we have apparent confirmation (if that is not too much of an oxymoron) of two players who won't be protected thanks to their Twitter accounts, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone (and judging by the majority of the lists in the thread, won't come as a surprise to anyone):

Ormphroy tweeted: "It's been a great year. I'm definitely going to miss Toronto. Genuine people, amazing city, incredible fans. Thanks for the memories "

Matt Gold tweeted something cryptic about leaving Toronto then confirmed to a fan that: "Haha thanks for asking but yeh won't be back. Thanks for the love this season, take care!"

[Standard]

Gutted that Omphroy has been released. Gold was a nice lad as well.

[Soccerpro]

I watched a recent video on OSA touchline with Danny Dichio. He said he hoped Vukovic would get a pro contract. He also said other players to watch for were Michael Petrasso and Sergio Camargo.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In the post-season press conference Winter seemed to be talking in terms of all of the Academy graduates returning (the only possible exception is Nicholas Lindsay as I don't remember his name being mentioned at any point and his injury was obviously very serious) so fringe players like Gold and Omphhroy need to go to clear up space to make way for the next batch of home grown players plus the two first round superdraft picks (there are also five selections to be made in the supplemental draft).

[ag futbol]

I watched a recent video on OSA touchline with Danny Dichio. He said he hoped Vukovic would get a pro contract. He also said other players to watch for were Michael Petrasso and Sergio Camargo.

Here's that video:

Petrasso is going to be very very good. He was already showing his skill at the U17 and he's going to be eligible for that level for another cycle.

[Soccerpro]

Here's that video:

Petrasso is going to be very very good. He was already showing his skill at the U17 and he's going to be eligible for that level for another cycle.

I was surprised when Dichio said he was only 15. Wouldn't he be ineligible for the next u17 world cup(ie the same reason that kept Jordan Hamilton out of the WC this summer who was also 15)

[Keegan]

I was surprised when Dichio said he was only 15. Wouldn't he be ineligible for the next u17 world cup(ie the same reason that kept Jordan Hamilton out of the WC this summer who was also 15)

He has a late birthday late September 95, Dichio probably forgot/didn't know

[jpg75]

He has a late birthday late September 95, Dichio probably forgot/didn't know

Exactly, Petrasso is a '95 so not going to be eligible for the next U17's. He will however be able to play in the next 2 U20 cycles...

[lattes]

It's clear TFC needs a stud CB. They could also use another attacking/goal scoring threat (what team couldn't)

Players who I think should return

1. Cordon

2. Ecks

3. Morgan

4. Henry

5. Plata

6. Soolsma

7. Frings

8. Danny K

9. Johnson

10. Kocic/ Frei - wouldnt be too worried if one of them leaves

11. Lindsay

12. Avila

13. Marosevic

14. Stinson

15. JDG - however clearly not on his currently salary, but he's under contract through 2012

16. Terry Dunfield - I don't rate him, but he's Canadian and doesn't make much

17. Keith Makubuya - academy kid, doesn't cost anything even though he hasn't really played

Players who should be shown the door

1. Harden

2. Borman

3. Martina

4. Yourass

5. Viator

6. Sturgis

7. Zavarise

Trade Bait/Haven't seen enough to form an opinion

1. Iro - trade bait...please

2. Bouchiba - Injured all year

3. Davies - played once

4. Griffit - hasn't played

5. Gold - doesn't play, mediocre American kid, could care less

6. Omphroy - hasn't played

7. Cann - have to see how he's recovered from injury

8. Williams - have to see how he's recovered from injury

Roster

8 M Eric Avila 23 5' 8" 149 USA Active

25 D/M Danleigh Borman 25 5' 9" 160 South Africa Active

17 M Elbekay Bouchiba 32 5' 10" 164 Netherlands Inactive

12 D Adrian Cann 31 6' 3" 180 Canada Inactive

16 M Oscar Cordon 18 5' 9" 155 Canada Active

29 D Kyle Davies 22 5' 10" 160 USA Active

6 M Julian de Guzman 30 5' 7" 150 Canada Active

23 M Terry Dunfield 29 5' 10" 165 Canada Active

27 D Richard Eckersley 22 6' 169 England Active

24 GK Stefan Frei 25 6' 3" 195 Switzerland Active

22 M Torsten Frings 34 5' 11" 170 Germany Active

26 M Matt Gold 23 5' 9" 165 USA Active

21 M Leandre Griffit 27 5' 8" 155 France Active

20 D Ty Harden 27 6' 1" 190 USA Active

4 D Doneil Henry 18 6' 180 Canada Active

3 D Andy Iro 26 6' 5" 205 England Active

9 F/M Ryan Johnson 26 6' 1" 180 Jamaica Active

30 GK Milos Kocic 26 6' 4" 200 Serbia Active

14 F Danny Koevermans 32 6' 3" 175 Netherlands Active

37 M Nicholas Lindsay 19 5' 9" 155 Canada Inactive

13 F Keith Makubuya 18 5' 11" 165 Canada Active

70 F/M Peri Marosevic 22 5' 9" 162 Bosnia & Herzegovina Active

33 F Javier Martina 24 5' 9" 156 Netherlands Active

5 D Ashtone Morgan 20 5' 11" 165 Canada Active

2 D Demitrius Omphroy 22 5' 10" 165 USA Active

7 F Joao Plata 19 5' 2" 135 Ecuador Active

18 F Nick Soolsma 23 5' 10" 175 Netherlands Active

15 M Matt Stinson 19 5' 10" 165 Canada Active

11 M/D Nathan Sturgis 24 5' 10" 150 USA Active

55 D Eddy Viator 29 5' 11" 155 Guadeloupe Active

31 D Dicoy Williams 25 6' 2" 187 Jamaica Inactive

19 D Mikael Yourassowsky 28 5' 10" 165 Belgium Active

28 M Gianluca Zavarise 25 5' 11" 168 Canada Active

Looking for something to argue with here, even if just to play devil's advocate and I really can't. I like DeGuzman but as you said, not at that money.

I know there WAS a 5m pound offer on Frei but don't know what he is worth now and because of MLS rules they only get about half of that but IMO if they could see something like that Kocic has proved himself and although he may need a pay-hike they can bring one or two new young keepers in on the cheap and train them. Again, pretty much agree (except I WOULD have an issue with Kocic leaving unless it was for REALLY good money they could invest in a higher end veteran defender) but it isn't like they are going to get Pique or Alves or something so...

[Keegan]

Really want us to hold onto Frei because deep down doesn't everyone hope he plays for Canada one day?

[jpg75]

We need to do everything we can to keep Frei, he has been one of the top MLS keepers since 2009. IMO Kocic is good, but not Frei's equal.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I didn't catch why Frei wasn't playing down the stretch. I know he was injured at some point, but didn't Winter decide to with Kocic with Frei healthy?

[lattes]

In the post-season press conference Winter seemed to be talking in terms of all of the Academy graduates returning (the only possible exception is Nicholas Lindsay as I don't remember his name being mentioned at any point and his injury was obviously very serious) so fringe players like Gold and Omphhroy need to go to clear up space to make way for the next batch of home grown players plus the two first round superdraft picks (there are also five selections to be made in the supplemental draft).

Man just the thought of that really makes me happy, a Canadian football team comprised of many strong Canadian boys!

Son asked me not long ago if he made it to TFC would I go watch him, I said I would travel for every home AND away game and he lit up, he has only been playing 6 months and may have an invitation to play two years up on 'B' rep team so who knows, maybe he really will make it, stuff like this heartens me.

[lattes]

We need to do everything we can to keep Frei, he has been one of the top MLS keepers since 2009. IMO Kocic is good, but not Frei's equal.

You forgot to put in YET, Kocic still has unrealized potential, is Frei better? Of course, but I don't see him getting any/much better than he is.

I like Frei a lot, but IMO for the right price he can walk so we can bring in a sweet defender and round out the roster.

[lattes]

I didn't catch why Frei wasn't playing down the stretch. I know he was injured at some point, but didn't Winter decide to with Kocic with Frei healthy?

I don't think Frei is 100%, there have been a few games where he played first half and Kocic played second half.

Not totally sure on this but that has been my assumption.

[jpg75]

I didn't catch why Frei wasn't playing down the stretch. I know he was injured at some point, but didn't Winter decide to with Kocic with Frei healthy?

Frei came back from injury and then got injured again after a collision in Columbus.

[jpg75]

You forgot to put in YET, Kocic still has unrealized potential, is Frei better? Of course, but I don't see him getting any/much better than he is.

I like Frei a lot, but IMO for the right price he can walk so we can bring in a sweet defender and round out the roster.

Just curious, but why do you think Kocic has more unrealized potential than Frei?

[Havoc88]

Just curious, but why do you think Kocic has more unrealized potential than Frei?

Especially considering Frei is a year younger than Kocic.

[canucklefan]

In the post-season press conference Winter seemed to be talking in terms of all of the Academy graduates returning (the only possible exception is Nicholas Lindsay as I don't remember his name being mentioned at any point and his injury was obviously very serious)

Let's hope Lindsay makes Winter reconsider to stay with the senior team. IMO, Lindsay showed more potential than Morgan, Cordon and Stinson.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/LindsayDeterminedToMakeAnImpactIn2012.aspx

It's been already posted on the Nicholas Lindsay thread. I thought there was at least an update on his situation.

"With respect to training, I am back to full fitness. I have been working out a lot and I'm working to get stronger. I have had a lot of time to rehabilitate and I can't wait for next season to happen. I'm going to be back at full strength. It's been a good journey. I feel so much stronger and so much better and I'm almost there with respect to getting back to 100%. And I think that because I have pushed myself so hard, I will be back to 100% and even beyond that. Not just with my legs, but with my entire body, I've really been trying to get stronger and faster and I have been working on a lot of things in terms of my whole body to make sure that I am 100% and more for next season," says Lindsay.

"It was something that was really hard at the beginning, but it is now something that I have overcome and it has made me a stronger person. I thank God every day just for blessing me and giving me the chance to come back and prove myself. At the end of last season I was doing pretty well with three assists in three games and now I really just can't wait to get back playing."

"I really do like the change in the system. The 4-3-3 would give me even more of chance to showcase my talents 1v1 and playing on the wing on either side in the top three. I really can't wait to play in that role, to adjust to it and to show what I can bring to the team. The system is something that I really like and think that I can adjust to well."