CSA commissions independent study on D2 league viability

[themodelcitizen]

Canadian Soccer Association commissions independent study on Division II League viability

The Canadian Soccer Association announced today that it has commissioned Rethink Management Group to independently study the viability of a division two league in Canada. Former Canadian youth and senior international Mr. James Easton will head-up the project.

The study group will look at various world leagues to assess their strengths and weaknesses, evaluate administrative and legal best practices and examine previous Canadian professional soccer leagues to learn from their successes and failures. At the conclusion of the study, the group will submit a report to the Association containing frameworks and models that emerged as most appropriate to be implemented in the Canadian structure. The project is expected to run through spring of 2012.

“The Canadian Soccer Association is pleased to engage a study on the prospects of a Division ll Professional League in Canada,” said Peter Montopoli, General Secretary of the Canadian Soccer Association. “The Association strives to provide a strong development environment for our athletes, as well as support the professionalization of the sport. This study will allow us to evaluate the best options going forward and take appropriate next steps.”

Rethink Management Group is a boutique, football-centric, sports and culture consultancy based in San Francisco, California. Their clients include professional football clubs, leagues, national federations and investment groups from across the Americas and the United Kingdom.

Sounds a lot like the KPMG report in the early 2000s about the viability of a top level league here. Are these market research groups really in a position to tell us what most of us already know/suspect? Is a nationwide D2 league viable, in your opinion, and would it mark an improvement on the current state of the game? Will people actually go to see Calgary vs. Quebec City when there's an MLS game on TV?

[Jeremy]

Yes a league in Canada is viable, you just need the right people and enough money...

I believe enough people in Quebec City (or any other city, just an example) would attend a professional soccer game rather than watch it on tv. A Canadian league would need, what, 5000 in attendance minimum to survive? I'm sure you can reach that many people in MLS-less cities around Canada, if marketed properly (professional, canadian, local)...

[Juby]

Yes a league in Canada is viable, you just need the right people and enough money...

I believe enough people in Quebec City (or any other city, just an example) would attend a professional soccer game rather than watch it on tv. A Canadian league would need, what, 5000 in attendance minimum to survive? I'm sure you can reach that many people in MLS-less cities around Canada, if marketed properly (professional, canadian, local)...

Yeah, I had a bare bones idea that could work on 2000 (if each team could come up with about $250 000 in yearly sponsorships) so realistically I think 4 000 - 5 000 would be sufficient. Some relevant numbers that I can only source board people are $350 000 ish for travel, probably about $250 000 in salaries for the minimum to be 'pro' (this one's just me figuring you need 11 contracts of at least 15 000 plus the rest of the squad).

edit: Staff and stadium rentals usually aren't terribly high (if it's an appropriately sized venue, many venues can't charge too much because they don't have enough events or teams), probably around $100 000- 150 000 depending on how extensive and qualified your staff is.

Some important income sources are youth systems (it's rather expensive to get your kid into a quality system and it's a little cynical but the better the club your attached to, the more you can charge), concession sales can (-can-) add up to half ticket sales (how many people will spend at least 10 extra bucks on a 20 dollar ticket? a 10 dollar ticket might even encourage attendance and concession sales. Sponsors (league wide, club sponsors, jersey spots, they need barrier ads etc.), sponsors can be tricky though, it pretty much involves calling and approaching gobs of businesses like an agent trying to make a deal, I recommend acting like an agent, calling big and small and everyone in between, acting like you got a great ad spot.

The main reason I'm talking now is cause I agree with Jeremy that realistically, it won't have to compete with New York vs Vancouver, it'll be Carolina vs Edmonton, and to be honest, I think that only the say Edmonton vs Hamilton games will interest people outside of those areas more then a decent league going on closer (maybe to put it clearer I think the guy in Quebec City would sooner go see Quebec play Calgary then watch Ottawa take on FC Tampa Bay, MLS' dominance is something NASL already has to deal with so their is a sizeable market below MLS, and Canada seems to have a mild bit more interest in d-2 clubs, attendance wise).

[themodelcitizen]

What about the PDL teams - do we incorporate them and turn them pro, try to use them as reserve/U23 teams for the top teams, or compete directly?

[Juby]

What about the PDL teams - do we incorporate them and turn them pro, try to use them as reserve/U23 teams for the top teams, or compete directly?

I'll try and shut up soon, but that just reminded me of something I skipped, if we have enough semi pro leagues, their should be a couple teams ready to step up and replace any club that's out of there depth (ie in too expensive a league). This should give these PDL teams options, stay in a decent amateur league, go to a regional semi pro league, or maybe even make a big step to pro (I have no idea about individual PDL ownership situations).

[Gordon]

Yes a league in Canada is viable, you just need the right people and enough money...

I believe enough people in Quebec City (or any other city, just an example) would attend a professional soccer game rather than watch it on tv. A Canadian league would need, what, 5000 in attendance minimum to survive? I'm sure you can reach that many people in MLS-less cities around Canada, if marketed properly (professional, canadian, local)...

We tend to focus on attendance, but the reality is that in most of the rest of the world that I can find information on, attendance amounts to only 20-33% of a teams revenue. Sponsorship in the lower divisions can be as high as 80+% and TV revenue is also high for 1st and second division teams. While many favour the concept of regional D2 leagues - which does address the concerns about operating costs resulting from travel and accomodation of a national league - the attractiveness of significant local sponsorship in a regional context is really quite low. And TV is right out the door, which in turn reduces the attractiveness of sponsorship. So you have one model of questioned viability based on cost, while the second should be questioned for viability (from a player development point of view) based on revenue IMO.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Sweet. Finallly a Canadian League thread!!!

I agree with themodelcitizen, the existing PDL clubs + NASL + IMFC and TFC reserves would provide a decent div 2 competition:

Victoria Highlanders

VWFC U23

Abbotsford Marriners

FC Edmonton

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Ottawa Fury

Hamilton FC

Forest City London

Toronto Lynx

TFC U23

IMFC U23

22 match balanced schedule, with the winner (U23s excluded) advancing to the V's Cup. Done!

[Richard]

"Yes a league in Canada is viable, you just need the right people and enough money..."

Spend enough money year after year and you can make almost anything you like function. Whether ordinary folks pay any attention or not over the long term is an entirely different matter.

[Juby]

Sweet. Finallly a Canadian League thread!!!

I agree with themodelcitizen, the existing PDL clubs + NASL + IMFC and TFC reserves would provide a decent div 2 competition:

Victoria Highlanders

VWFC U23

Abbotsford Marriners

FC Edmonton

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Ottawa Fury

Hamilton FC

Forest City London

Toronto Lynx

TFC U23

IMFC U23

22 match balanced schedule, with the winner (U23s excluded) advancing to the V's Cup. Done!

Sorry to poke holes but I don't think it's quite that simple, the NASL teams probably wouldn't take a small step back (especially not early on), and the PDL teams are largely amateur (although some could probably step up) which means some of the better semi pro CSL clubs are probably closer to this level (for example, SC Toronto is a better team then the Toronto Lynx). I think the best part of your post though is pointing out how much better things could be if we could convince the MLS clubs to field competitive teams at this level, just by fielding a team from a purely development standpoint would mean a couple less 'big' investors are needed to fill out a table.

I honestly picture a new league as having teams from a lot of league backgrounds, new and old owners/markets, more of a hodge podge of wherever enough money exists (and sorry to belabour a point but with pro/rel we can easily adjust the league to replace any failing club with a surprise success).

"Yes a league in Canada is viable, you just need the right people and enough money..."

Spend enough money year after year and you can make almost anything you like function. Whether ordinary folks pay any attention or not over the long term is an entirely different matter.

Yes Yes, Richard thinks it's never gonna sell because apparently he speaks for 'ordinary folks', thanks for the update tips. I'd just like to point out that most leagues around the world are more of a mix of stable and unstable clubs, successes and coming failures, opportunistic profiteers and game lovers, big money and 'by the skin of their teeth operations' etc.(In the EPL alone their's usually team spending themselves bankrupt, it doesn't really affect the credibility of the league as long as their's enough stable to profitable clubs) . The point is, if you get a couple big teams to field academies, a few owners who are willing to break even or take a small loss just cause they love football, a few successes and replace the odd out and out failure and you are running a pretty damn typical league, which will benefit our national team, and just might start selling around a d-2 level (If it's about d-2 quality of game).

[ted]

Will people actually go to see Calgary vs. Quebec City when there's an MLS game on TV?

There are a couple of ways to answer this:

1) Yes, they will. Why would people in Calgary (for example) give a rats ass about watching Toronto on TV? People want live, local games supplemented by games on TV. I go to Victoria Highlanders games to be part of the experience. I could care less if an MLS game is on.

2) Why would they have to choose? a) because of the ubiquity of PVRs; and because smart schedulers would not make people choose by avoiding direct conflicts as much as possible.

This is a minor issue.

[nogoals]

and the PDL teams are largely amateur (although some could probably step up) which means some of the better semi pro CSL clubs are probably closer to this level (for example, SC Toronto is a better team then the Toronto Lynx)

Whoooa...what could you possibly base this statement on?

SC Toronto is in part made up of recent Toronto Lynx players that are now finished their NCAA scholarships and Toronto Lynx alumni. Some very talented players to be sure. Better than the current team? There is nothing,- nothing to base that statement on, but you are entitled to your opinion.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Hopefully this is just being done to appease a few zealots and won't get in the way of Edmonton, Ottawa and in time Hamilton participating in the NASL. Worth noting the wording "Division ll Professional League in Canada" used by Peter Montopoli is an interesting nuance in that regard. A "Professional League in Canada" is different from a "Canadian Professional League". There are enough issues surrounding the NASL right now due to internal USSF politics that it is not unreasonable to have the CSA look at plan B alternatives but from what I've been reading elsewhere there appears to be an expectation that the NASL will finally get full D2 sanctioning. [Might add a link for that later]

[Tuscan]

It really comes down to cost control. I can't see a D2 league surviving here without ensuring that travel costs could be subsidized as much as possible. When it costs more to fly to Halifax from Vancouver than it does to fly to Honduras from Vancouver, you know your back is up against the wall. Centralization of expenses such as travel and other league-wide costs would at least give the league a stable foundation to function upon.

To expect any more than 1000 per game for at least the first few years in most markets is naive. IF, and it's a really REALLY big if, you can convince the people that this league is pro and not just a bunch of nobodies from [insert random Canadian city here], the league would gain credibility. This brings me to my second main point - credibility. It's tough to gain credibility because credibility is expensive. Really expensive. Bringing in foreign players that people have heard of expensive.

[Juby]

Whoooa...what could you possibly base this statement on?

SC Toronto is in part made up of recent Toronto Lynx players that are now finished their NCAA scholarships and Toronto Lynx alumni. Some very talented players to be sure. Better than the current team? There is nothing,- nothing to base that statement on, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Empirical observation, the CSL has a lot of men playing (like you said, some Toronto Lynx alum, and in the case the SC Toronto, a lot of players scouted from other CSL teams as well). I haven't seen a game recently but their is usually a lot of good young talent at a PDL game, the same is true at CSL games except that their are also more developed men. The better teams in the CSL have just as much talent and will generally have a good athletic advantage (they are a pretty big bunch in the CSL).

And think about it, if a guy was playing for the Lynx in his early 20's, and continues to play into his mid 20's, he's generally a better player. To be honest I was actually very nice about that comment because there is no shame in a good amateur youth oriented team not being as good as a near pro, men's league team currently dominating a semi pro league. And like I said, it's not a big talent gap or anything, just more of an athletic, muscle and stamina difference. Btw, theirs a bunch of CSL videos of games in a thread in this sub forum if you wanted to take a look.

and bbtb, do you know what a 'zealot' is? it's people who go overboard, you know, people who exaggerate or mislead, or scandalize nothing because of a maciavellian sense of purpose, I called you one a couple days ago. Where exactly does zealotry get involved in people wanting a national division? maybe if their was actually a 'they' getting in the way of NASL clubs you might be approaching a point but really it probably wouldn't be till people wanted to pull out our MLS clubs that they could seriously be accused of too much zeal.

And to Tuscan, part of me thinks that a sponsorship like the Air Canada League they could really make it happen (call the regional divisions Greyhound Yourregion League). It might also be possible that if you had say 16 teams, and the $350 000 travel figure, you could at least negotiate the price down a bit by making the deal centrally considering your collectively creating a $5 000 000 account league wide.

[argh1]

It's starting to happen with the NBL of Canada (hopefully it survives and grows)

They have lined up sponsorships with Porter Airlines and Rogers Communications for discounted flights and local TV coverage team title sponsorship etc.

No reason for it not to happen for a D2 soccer league. The time is ripe with the success of TFC, Caps and Impact now. Even interest in our failed WWC was high.

[Macksam]

The chances of a second division succeeding will grow as MLS brings the popularity of soccer up in Canada.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

With an open-ended timeline stretching out over many decades that's true enough but in the short to medium term the chances of a genuinely pro standalone Canadian league emerging have been sunk below the waterline by the presence of the three MLS teams, which is why some people were so bitterly opposed to MLS expansion into Canada. What people tend to forget is that the CSA gave the national league thing a try in the not too distant past with Gerry Gentile's CUSL initiative but when it came time to try to find investors and broadcasters it quickly unraveled.

[Juby]

With an open-ended timeline stretching out over many decades that's true enough but in the short to medium term the chances of a genuinely pro standalone Canadian league emerging have been sunk below the waterline by the presence of the three MLS teams, which is why some people were so bitterly opposed to MLS expansion into Canada. What people tend to forget is that the CSA gave the national league thing a try in the not too distant past with Gerry Gentile's CUSL initiative but when it came time to try to find investors and broadcasters it quickly unraveled.

*sigh* your just repeating old poor arguements.

A) who exactly was 'bitterly opposed' to MLS expansion, I can think of only a handful of people who are against NASL expansion let alone MLS. Are you sure your not just exaggerating to try and make your point look better, which leads me to:

The MLS clubs have RAISED interest in soccer, if anything the likely hood of a workable second division has gone up since these 3 clubs started getting huge amounts of people interested in North American football. So how come you make it look here like soccer is approaching over saturation in Canada when the MLS clubs clearly, to use your analogy, have strengthened our boat? Just trying to cause panic? Wasting Time?

C) You are often quick to take a bit of fact and just write a story with it. Besides the fact that looking for sponsors for soccer is going to be a whole lot easier then it was a decade ago (think about how far soccer has come in the mainstream over the last decade here), can you describe how exactly they went about looking for investors? What their current pool of potential existing clubs were compared to today? Many people give the CSA an aura of complete incompetence although that appears to be changing, could it not be possible that if it's being run better today, and theirs more to work with, and were one of the fastest growing nations in the world that things have...*gasp*....changed. The thing that bothers me is you name drop on such an over simplified point, save the credibility of examples for when your making a logically correct statement.

[ThiKu]

Someone said the league can't function with an expectation of ticket-buyers. One guy suggested 4-5g's, another said not to expect more than 1g. I have to agree with the 1g. Odds are not more than 1000 paying attenders will be about average. Certainly until the league proves it is at NASL level and is bringing in foreign talent...

BUT, the league would never happen without certainly media attention/TV (at least online streaming......or tape delayed games), and major sponsorship not only as a whole league but also for each individual team. IE, the Campbell's Soup Canadian Premier League.

My suggestion is build-up the D3 regional semi-pro leagues, incorporate some full-time professionals as each team can manage it - and look at the business model for each team to ensure they can stay afloat for X # of years.

Once D3 is around for a while what will naturally happen is certain teams will thrive while others will struggle. The ones that thrive could propose breaking off into a D2, while the D3 remains a feeder league a lot like the AHL....if it's at all possible for the D2 teams to finance the D3 teams to any degree....or at least loan them some players? D3 could run on billet programs etc....

D3 would only work though, as a semi-pro, long-term model, if there was some sort of carrot. IE, winner of the D3 national finals is in the NCC and plays the lowest ranked NASL (or any possible USL Pro teams) team for entry into the NCC-proper. D3 should then have some sort of TV/online, whatever TV support they can get for a final-4 weekend or something. The final4 weekend would put the winner into a televised playoff situation with the lowest ranked NASL team....

So a lot of things would have to go right. D3 does well enough to stay afloat for a number of years, D3 gets media attention and sponsorship, D2 teams form out of the D3 league, as well as the "carrot" for the D3 teams to enter the NCC somehow. Not to mention some money-bags owners (don't forget the MLS started with...what, one owner??? and then sold teams off as was appropriate), and full support by the MLS teams - ie, loaning players out while still covering their salaries unless that doesn't work under MLS financial rules. But you get my drift. One guy could own all the teams. Heck, the CFL has one owner for 2 teams.

Under this model a D2 league would probably be 10 years away....which is fine, if that means it thrives.

[Gordon]

*sigh* your just repeating old poor arguements.

A) who exactly was 'bitterly opposed' to MLS expansion, I can think of only a handful of people who are against NASL expansion let alone MLS. Are you sure your not just exaggerating to try and make your point look better, which leads me to:

I was opposed to the initial MLS expansion into Canada. Bitterly is subjective, of course, so while I wouldn't use the term to describe my opposition, I have no negative reaction to someone else describing it as such. I am opposed, on principle, to perpetual mediocrity which is what I think MLS - whether 1 or 3 teams - condems us to. Others disagree - fair dinkum as the Aussies say. Never seen an argument to convince me they are right but I will agree that 3 in the MLS is a step ahead of 3 in the USL. Given that the first foray has occured, coming at a terrible long term cost, I, and I am sure anyone else who have ideas of something more than mediocrity, would welcome more Canadian expansion. Conditional of course, on actually seeing Canadians on the pitch to a reasonable degree.

[Richard]

Seems we have a dilemma emerging.... some say we must have a Canadian league for Canadians to play/develop in, others say the only way a Canadian league can be viable is if it is filled with foreign players?

[Juby]

Seems we have a dilemma emerging.... some say we must have a Canadian league for Canadians to play/develop in, others say the only way a Canadian league can be viable is if it is filled with foreign players?

not really much of a dilemma, Even at the semi pro level we see a decent number of foreign players and were not a terribly Xenophobic bunch, so realistically if any league had a minimum Canadians per team of like ?10 - 13? and then had like 10 bargain foreign pickups, I'm sure everybody would be happy (It'd be a lot more contracted canadian players then now, surrounding them and provide spectators with a better quality league in general). You don't really have to lean towards either extreme.

[ThiKu]

^Exactly. A D2 National could probably have 10 foreigners (most would be American I am sure), but a D3 Regional would be almost totally Canadian.

[Macksam]

^Exactly. A D2 National could probably have 10 foreigners (most would be American I am sure), but a D3 Regional would be almost totally Canadian.

Doubt it. It would probably something like what FC Edmonton has.

[Redcoatsforever]

Most would probably be the nationality of the head coach.