lattes Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Ok so Toronto FC isn't REALLY a football club (they are a team, they have no house league, no select teams under TFC, no development programs etc) Currently there are 6 'Academies' in Ontario, (these are run in a similar manner to British, South American and Mainland European clubs but with no 'first team') http://www.academysoccer.ca/ I strongly suggest any of you check out some of the U16 games, some of these kids are amazing and I know that there are a few clubs from Europe that scout these boys. http://www.academysoccer.ca/?page=all_schedule&Dpick=009 Anyway, long story short, there are 'Academies' (clubs) in the US as well, what would it take to get these clubs to have first teams playing in larger stadiums and really advancing football in North America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuzzAndSting Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 I don't get what you mean. Doesn't TFC have like 5 or 6 youth teams? We know there's at least one, see Cordon, Morgan, Lindsey, Stinson, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoatsforever Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 I don't get what you mean. Doesn't TFC have like 5 or 6 youth teams? We know there's at least one, see Cordon, Morgan, Lindsey, Stinson, etc... It's also being expanded down to start from the age of 8, I think. It isn't a "club" though, in the strictest sense. It's a "franchise". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alberta white Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Laymans definition of a UK Sports Club. The club model is thus. A club forms with a membership of playing or none playing members, this applies for Rugby and Cricket clubs and to my recolection Aussie rules clubs in the SANFL in South Australia. The club if sucessfull will gain longevity will usually develops a field of play, which it will rent or own, a rail running around the Perimeter to stop incursions onto the field of play, but most importantly there will be clubhouse. The club house is fundamental, as it has a BAR! true it should have locker rooms and a meeting space for a AGM, but if you make the Bar big enough and string up enough curtains then, "Bob", as they say, "Is yer dads older (or younger) brother" and you have space to do all of the above. Intresting, I've yet to come across this model in Western Canada with regards to community sports. Okay so there is a community league building but not a social club per say. Anyway, historically this is how clubs stated in the UK. The teams formed from members of working mens clubs, Catholic missions and churches and Factory associations. Arsenal Football Club started out as Dial Square in 1886 by workers at the Royal Arsenal in Woolwich, south-east London, and was renamed Royal Arsenal and again renamed to Woolwich Arsenal after becoming a limited company in 1893 when the money men came in and turned the thing profesional, as happened with most of the "92" you see today. The existance of the "membership however is still there by way of the supporters clubs, Many of which in England still have access to rooms within the organisations. Some like Chester FC and the AFC wimbeldon are now once again owned by their fanbase. The football league is also club. The membership consists of the said 92 joining together under the control of an elected body which is sactioned in England by the FA, who also look after this model in the amature and semi pro game. The situation in the rest of the UK follows a similar pattern. The EPL is technically a breakaway outfit but like the football league it has to maintain this collective nature within the FA, thus allowing the promotion relegation model to exist. To some extent the failure of Waldorf and Stadler...sorry Gillette and Hicks.. to avoid refering to the at Liverpol FC as a franchise meant they were doomed to Failure. John Henry has so far avoded this dreaded faux par. Anyone able to expand on how tis works in Germany France spain Etc. I know Barca are community owned. The NASL is to some extent appears to be following the same model. Its a league made up of "Independent" clubs, to the most part who organise their own finacial dealings and not have their sponsorships and uniform requirements dictated to be oon high. Okay...now to the MSL. Well guys its simple. Its a franchise league. Simple. Its owned and operated by one entity who's word is god. You wear the kit the MLS say you wear. you play the players the MLS say you can. And you say goodbye to everything you worked for regarding the hardcore fanbse you developed over years in the wilderness ( god bless you caps fans-I truly mean it.) I was listening to one of the Cosmos ambasadors on the BBC the otherday. It was the Italian guy who scored 250+ in the old NASL- Angelo Scorio, or something. He conversation was very telling as the Cosmos are already begining to ***** about who they can and cannot sign and how high the salary cap is and why the have to ware Addidas and... fer christ sake they 'aint even got a team yet but they already stiring the Pot! Got to luv dem Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 The club if sucessfull will gain longevity will usually develops a field of play, which it will rent or own, a rail running around the Perimeter to stop incursions onto the field of play, but most importantly there will be clubhouse. The club house is fundamental, as it has a BAR! true it should have locker rooms and a meeting space for a AGM, but if you make the Bar big enough and string up enough curtains then, "Bob", as they say, "Is yer dads older (or younger) brother" and you have space to do all of the above. Intresting, I've yet to come across this model in Western Canada with regards to community sports. Okay so there is a community league building but not a social club per say. Curling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alberta white Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Curling! I said sport... Thats housekeeping on ice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alberta white Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Sorry about that my evil twin made that comment. actually I know nothing about Curling other than the stones all come from scotland. As a newbie its not been promoted to me much (actually not at all). when I lived in Oz, "Fancy coming down the club for a beer mate?" was almost the first thing my neighbour said to me. the club was at the local Oval where they played Cricket and Aussie rules. they even ran soccer for the kids as well -and thats very rare. It didnt cost $200 bucks a go either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 1. "Troll"!!! What exactly was your point? We aren't real soccer fans because we support the teams that are put out in front of us in our home country? Don't support them because they don't have a 100 year history and the league they are in requires a draft system and only limited home grown players (which really needs to go! Must be increased to unlimited - which might kill the draft who knows...) 2. TFC has youth down to 8-10 years of age....it's more of a club-system than most other MLS teams! Which is what you have to compare it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 I said sport... Thats housekeeping on ice! What better sport to go with drinking, though? Even the participants can drink. The very definition of "club." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiakTFC Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 TFC goes down to u11 next year doesn't it? Also, the majority of kids called to the u16 team were from TFC Academy. Mmhmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have no problem with what TFC seem to have with their academy. Lots of good young players coming up but I was wondering if players have to pay to be in the TFC system? It would be a shame if $ kept kids from getting a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Its a club academy (not a private academy) so no one has to pay. Much like anywhere else in the world, club academy attract, recruit and retain based on potential, abilities and performance. Their objective is to develop players ( though the guidance of pro coaches) for a professioal career at the senior club and/ or ultimately for the purpose of transferring the players (when they are full developed professionals) for a transfer fee. http://www.torontofc.ca/academy-programs http://club.whitecapsfc.com/_mls-mockups/youth-academy-rosters.aspx http://www.montrealimpact.com/Academie/AcademieEN.pdf The academies where you pay (like those David Beckham, ImG, or whtever theybare called ) are not the same at all. They are not affiliated to a professional club. Club adacemies have a vested interest in developing professional players whereas have private academies lhave vested interest in collecting fees. Not sure exactly how it works but i suspect that the best that the private academy can do is send you on a trial or recommend you to another club or club academy. The absence of club academies is what has been the number one reason why we have not been able to develop talent in sufficient quantities. And why we have only reached he world cup only once and why we have been ranked 80-100 in the world. It is only way out of the doldrums for Canada. People can say what they want about MLS coming to Canada but this IMHO has been the biggest benefit by far to soccer in canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alberta white Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 1. "Troll"!!! What exactly was your point? We aren't real soccer fans because we support the teams that are put out in front of us in our home country? Don't support them because they don't have a 100 year history and the league they are in requires a draft system and only limited home grown players (which really needs to go! Must be increased to unlimited - which might kill the draft who knows...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trident Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Good thing you told me about this aspect of the sport in our country, or else I wouldn't be going from one province to another to see these reserve teams play! Oh wait, I was planning on doing that anyways. Thanks for letting us know teams beside senior sides exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 More ramblings than anything here for me. I'm amazed or interested on how sports or games developed in this country. Given that of the top 5 sports in this country all start with the letter H. But also before the advent of TV and internet just radio and newspapers that a farm boy from Dorchester NB made the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 50's. That in the 40's a guy from Moncton played for the Maple Leafs and made it into the HHOF. How a kid from Salisbury NB make the CFL in the 60's. How does a kid from Belleisle NB make Rugby's national team? How almost every community of 5,000 has a curling club and a golf club?. Why did minor sports associations work so well for some sports....why did High School and University level work so well for others? Why clubs for others? How come there's not one formula that works for all games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 What better sport to go with drinking, though? Even the participants can drink. The very definition of "club." Pétanque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Pétanque Or lawn darts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekester Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Alberta White knows his stuff. Soccer has a long way to go before it is taken seriously in North America. How on earth can it be named Major League Soccer. A soccer league must have promotion and relegation to be taken seriously. MLS is conference standard at best, and I doubt even that. Players taken in a draft at say 22 or 23 are in all likelyhood no longer teachable. The prime pro development years are 17-20 hence so many players are loaned out to lesser clubs to develop. Current example Danny Wellbeck being loaned to Sunderland, and now back in the fold. Our league the MLS is entertaining. The fans a pleasure to observe, but passionate??? There are academies and academies. Most are very expensive to operate, and rarely pay their way. Most of the lesser teams produce players to sell on Crewe Alex, West Ham, and Crystal Palace. The N American academy teams suffer from a serious lack of competition.But oh well it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 MLS is conference standard at best, and I doubt even that. There's no Euro-snobbery in this statement. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Soccer has a long way to go before it is taken seriously in North America. How on earth can it be named Major League Soccer. A soccer league must have promotion and relegation to be taken seriously. MLS is conference standard at best, and I doubt even that. s. Troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the biologist Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 They say trolls come in 3s, so who's next ? Actually MLS and NA soccer in general can't be taken seriously, we don't have real hooligans in here to fight with other teams hooligans and destroy everything, smashing up trash cans on opposite players face while invading the pitch with rocks to throw at anyone that has the bad idea of standing a couple meters to you. Next game I'll be sure to bring a baseball bat with me, you never know, my team could trail at some point and a supporter of the opposing team could look at me in a way I won't appreciate... See, I can learn pretty quickly from all these knowledgeable people. So that... ...that... ...and that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6LLL3Yn6Gw ...are all videos we should show to NA people so we know how to actually level up our league & clubs on even terms with Europe. I know I'm exaggerating but we must fight fire with fire with these guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Let me comment on some specific statements: 1. "A soccer league must have promotion and relegation to be taken seriously." The Dutch League only has two levels. Once in the second level, there is no relegation. Aside from it theoretically taking two years to go from the bottom to the to the top in the Netherlands, how is that different from a league that has a playoff structure where more than half the teams qualify? 2. "Players taken in a draft at say 22 or 23 are in all likelyhood no longer teachable. The prime pro development years are 17-20 hence so many players are loaned out to lesser clubs to develop." In this regard, the North American approach is still developing. I don't think the issue is the draft or when players are drafted. The issue is proper development. If soccer development took place to the professional level in the college system like in basketball and American football, this wouldn't be an issue. The issue is that it hasn't been happening as good as it should have been; but, that is changing. As for loan outs and loan ins, I suspect that will happen naturally over time with the development of MLS team academies. 3. "There are academies and academies. Most are very expensive to operate, and rarely pay their way. Most of the lesser teams produce players to sell on Crewe Alex, West Ham, and Crystal Palace." England is not the place where I would start to look for successful academy models. The Dutch, Brazilians, Uruguayans, and Argentinians have better examples and ones that have been profitable. Personally, I think both Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps are moving in the right direction and only time will tell if they are successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ^^^^ 0r something similar to Major Junior or Jr A hockey.......yeah I know............ Where there's competitive play and the NHL pays for each drafted player (in the case of Major Jr) A place for 16 to 20 year olds to play and learn to become pros? With a university bursary as a fall back. Hard to argue the success of developing players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Let me comment on some specific statements: 1. "A soccer league must have promotion and relegation to be taken seriously." The Dutch League only has two levels. Once in the second level, there is no relegation. Aside from it theoretically taking two years to go from the bottom to the to the top in the Netherlands, how is that different from a league that has a playoff structure where more than half the teams qualify? 2. "Players taken in a draft at say 22 or 23 are in all likelyhood no longer teachable. The prime pro development years are 17-20 hence so many players are loaned out to lesser clubs to develop." In this regard, the North American approach is still developing. I don't think the issue is the draft or when players are drafted. The issue is proper development. If soccer development took place to the professional level in the college system like in basketball and American football, this wouldn't be an issue. The issue is that it hasn't been happening as good as it should have been; but, that is changing. As for loan outs and loan ins, I suspect that will happen naturally over time with the development of MLS team academies. 3. "There are academies and academies. Most are very expensive to operate, and rarely pay their way. Most of the lesser teams produce players to sell on Crewe Alex, West Ham, and Crystal Palace." England is not the place where I would start to look for successful academy models. The Dutch, Brazilians, Uruguayans, and Argentinians have better examples and ones that have been profitable. Personally, I think both Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps are moving in the right direction and only time will tell if they are successful. Agree. I thought about commenting on the specifics of that post by dekester but i saw no point in it when he/she compared MLS to conference levels in England. Thats a non starter at that point because anyone who says that, is clearly closed minded or trolling and not interested in listening. Hence, the only valid response that i could think of was what i posted. Sure, there are flaws in the setup in NA but anyone who knows even the slightest bit about the game knows full well that you cant equate industrial leagues in England to a full time professional league with salary levels well over three mill (if you add DP's) and several internationals within its ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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