Bring the Kids to WCQ?

[Lord Bob]

If the "performance" we saw from the men's team in the Gold Cup is the level the team's going to play at during World Cup qualifying, we're not going to qualify for the World Cup. We'll be pretty lucky to make the final round of qualifying. I think we can all agree on that: that play didn't fit a top six team in CONCACAF and it probably didn't fit a top twelve team.

So if the team keeps this up, should we start bringing along some promising youngsters in this World Cup qualifying campaign? Neither Bryce Alderson nor Julian de Guzman will help this team get to the 2014 World Cup, but a bit of experience will help Alderson get the team through in 2018. If Dwayne De Rosario is going to be typical Dwayne De Rosario in a 2014 campaign then I'd rather see Nicholas Lindsay once he gets healthy.

I'm not saying bring a U-20 team. Guys like Jackson, Simpson, and Hutchinson who are in the primes of their careers should definitely remain the core players. Older guys like Klukowski or McKenna who can still contribute, too. But if we have the choice between an old guy who's a question mark and a young guy who's worse right now but will be better in 2018 when we have a chance, take the kid.

[RS]

The best current team should always be called, regardless of age.

[Sam]

The best current team should always be called, regardless of age.

I'd side a little more with Lord Bob on this one. Look what Germany did in this past World Cup. Germany were a team every said were past it, but a year or two before the World Cup players like Neuer, Mueller Khederia and Ozil weren't the best Germany had to offer, but they get the starts in the build-up to the World Cup. By the time the World Cup rolled around sure enough these guys were world class and they brought the Germans to within touching distance of a World Cup final, something no one thought they would do.

I'm all for giving at least a few of the kids a chance in WCQ.

[Lovethegame!]

Bit dissapointing your comments Lord Bob.. don't give up on the squad. I mean it doesn't take a lot to realize they didn't have the best tournament - but dropping players and bringing unproven youngsters when qualification hasn't even began? Give me a break honestly.

We take the best squad possible, always to try and get the furthest we can. Why plan for 2018 when 2014 hasn't even begin? Shocking comment, and frankly upsetting. Why don't we just bring our best 10 year olds because 2026 we might give them very early experience. Give me a break.

they played poorly, but yet 1 minute away from the Quarter finals. Without their best player, and starting center back. JDG has played on the biggest tage, suffering right now, but you can't take that experience away. He can get his form back, and if so, then what a valuable player he can be. Stay positive, support the boys for 2014 not some distant future.

[Lovethegame!]

Sure - if you are Germany you can do it why not? But how many kids do we have playing for Schalke, Werder Bremen, and Bayern Munich? Come on.. We can seriously think we can play our young players, who have zero experience at Club level or anywhere else. Big difference between Muller playing for Bayern Munich, and Lindsay, who can't break into a shocking MLS side, in a very mediocre league on the world stage.

[RS]

I'd side a little more with Lord Bob on this one. Look what Germany did in this past World Cup. Germany were a team every said were past it, but a year or two before the World Cup players like Neuer, Mueller Khederia and Ozil weren't the best Germany had to offer, but they get the starts in the build-up to the World Cup. By the time the World Cup rolled around sure enough these guys were world class and they brought the Germans to within touching distance of a World Cup final, something no one thought they would do.

I'm all for giving at least a few of the kids a chance in WCQ.

A "few" of the kids is fine. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because we're all on an emotional low over the Gold Cup is not a practical course of action.

As I said, the best current team should be called. If that means a 19 year old gets called in due to merit (ie. performing at his club side), then so be it. But if it's just a reactionary thing, then it's foolish.

Which kids deserve a call-up right now?

[RS]

Sure - if you are Germany you can do it why not? But how many kids do we have playing for Schalke, Werder Bremen, and Bayern Munich? Come on.. We can seriously think we can play our young players, who have zero experience at Club level or anywhere else. Big difference between Muller playing for Bayern Munich, and Lindsay, who can't break into a shocking MLS side, in a very mediocre league on the world stage.

Um, Lindsay can't break into the TFC side because he's got a broken leg. If healthy, he'd be playing regularly with Toronto, IMO.

[Lord Bob]

Right now, today, I'd call:

Teibert over De Rosario

Gage over de Guzman

Latendresse-Levesque or Santiago over any GK not named Hirschfeld or Borjan

Porter over Friend

...for sure. I do any of those right now.

[jonovision]

Which kids deserve a call-up right now?

Exactly. This tournament didn't do my hopes for 2014 any good, but I can't think of a single player under 24 (under 29 by the time important matches are being played to qualify for 2018) who I would expect to be at the level of Hutchinson when we start qualifying for Russia. We may have some depth at certain positions, but virtually no young depth.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Since we're playing the "every other country game" with the coach, I'd like to say that every other country bloods a few kids in qualifying. I think the one's who can help us the most are Teibert and Cordon. Russel delivers pretty good corners and that was seriously missing yesterday. Henry might also be good cover at RB, where pretty much everyone on the depth chart is playing out of position. Of the Europeans, Cebera has played some first team and looked pretty good at times with the U20s. Di Chiara is also playing at a pretty decent level right now. You can only use 14 players per competitive match, so I don't see anything wrong with bringing 4 youth players into the 18 -especially when playing the minnows. Even if it's just to sit on the bench.

[jpg75]

I'd side a little more with Lord Bob on this one. Look what Germany did in this past World Cup. Germany were a team every said were past it, but a year or two before the World Cup players like Neuer, Mueller Khederia and Ozil weren't the best Germany had to offer, but they get the starts in the build-up to the World Cup. By the time the World Cup rolled around sure enough these guys were world class and they brought the Germans to within touching distance of a World Cup final, something no one thought they would do.

I'm all for giving at least a few of the kids a chance in WCQ.

Those players were not introduced until late in the WCQ campaign and the friendly build up to the Cup for a reason, they were too young and not good enough. It wasn't until they had established themselves at the club level and with their Euro U21 title that the young generation were brought in to the full German NT. We unfortunately don't have anything close to that amount of talent in our youth ranks.

[jpg75]

Since we're playing the "every other country game" with the coach, I'd like to say that every other country bloods a few kids in qualifying. I think the one's who can help us the most are Teibert and Cordon. Russel delivers pretty good corners and that was seriously missing yesterday. Henry might also be good cover at RB, where pretty much everyone on the depth chart is playing out of position. Of the Europeans, Cebera has played some first team and looked pretty good at times with the U20s. Di Chiara is also playing at a pretty decent level right now. You can only use 14 players per competitive match, so I don't see anything wrong with bringing 4 youth players into the 18 -especially when playing the minnows. Even if it's just to sit on the bench.

Most countries usually have very deserving players that are starters for their club teams from an early age. That said, I would not be against giving a few young players a call up to camp and a few sub appearances against the minnows this fall - as long as the game is in hand. The question for me is who? Teibert and Cordon don't look out of place in MLS so they're worthy, maybe a guy like Nic Lindsay if he recovers his form after rehab. Gage? Henry? Porter? I don't know. I think the U17 players are a little too young, maybe call them up to the U23 squad first.

[Keegan]

This notion that we should bring the U17 players (or even some of them) to WCQ is absolutely ridiculous... people don't realize that maybe 4 or 5 of those kids will EVER win a cap for Canada. We need a coaching change no more or less, we didn't advance because we couldn't score against two less talented sides simple as. No one expected us to beat the USA so that's irrelevant but we did expect 6 points.

[El Hombre]

A "few" of the kids is fine. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because we're all on an emotional low over the Gold Cup is not a practical course of action.

+1.

Frankly, reading the posts on this board today has made me more upset than the result of the game last night. Particularly because the people here are supposed to have a little bit of knowledge about the Canadian game.

A little perspective: the US is a good team. Panama is a good team. Guadeloupe is a good team. From what I saw, we didn't get played off the park like some of the other teams in this tournament.

At the end of the day five teams finished with 4 points. The four other teams were privy to more shellacking opportunities than we were: Costa Rica 5-0 Cuba, El Salvador 6-1 Cuba, Honduras 7-1 Grenada, Guatemala 4-0 Grenada. None of those teams would've had the same scoreline against Guadeloupe. I guaran-fucking-tee it. So, do we drop everybody because we went out on goal differential playing against teams that knew how to bunker? No, that's fucking ludicrous. Get a little perspective people. Plus, we were a minute away from ending up top of our group.

Yes, we didn't score a goal from open play. I fully realize that. However, it's not like we didn't have chances. That would be a more dire situation in my opinion. Simpson did not have a good tournament, DeRosario did not have a good tournament, Jackson didn't have a good tournament, and they're the ones being counted on to produce us. But, the fact of the matter is that they can and have played better for Canada. It's not as if they don't have the skill to compete at this level. More often than not, Jackson converts on his opportunity in the first 3 minutes of the Panama game, and DeRosario and Simpson are a little more accurate in their passes. For whatever reason, they didn't play to their potential over the last 7 days. This doesn't mean that they can't in the future.

In our region, there are only two teams that I think can beat us on a consistent basis: Mexico and the US. After that, it is a toss-up. So save the "we're barely a top twelve team in this region" for all the naysayers that know shit all about CONCACAF.

So, Lord Bob, save me the rhetoric about how we're never going to qualify for 2014 and we should play the kids, cause that's just annoying. What should be done is learn a fucking lesson or two about what just happened and figure out:

a) what tactics are needed when we're playing a team that is bunkering, because we weren't able to carve open either Guadeloupe or Panama.

what tactics are needed and which personnel should be on the pitch when we're protecting a lead.

Remember: we're never as good as we think we are after a win and we're certainly not as bad as we think we are after a loss.

(whew...that had been building up in me for awhile)

[ted]

So, Lord Bob, save me the rhetoric about how we're never going to qualify for 2014 and we should play the kids, cause that's just annoying. What should be done is learn a fucking lesson or two about what just happened and figure out:

a) what tactics are needed when we're playing a team that is bunkering, because we weren't able to carve open either Guadeloupe or Panama.

what tactics are needed and which personnel should be on the pitch when we're protecting a lead.

Remember: we're never as good as we think we are after a win and we're certainly not as bad as we think we are after a loss.

(whew...that had been building up in me for awhile)

+1

I have no objection to bringing in a couple of younger players if warranted but giving up before we have played a single game of qualifying? I think those advocating wholesale change need to look at how long Bradley has had with the US team for training and in games since the last World Cup and compare it to the same for Hart and Canada.

Heck, aside from the rest of the Gold Cup I bet the US gets twice the training and playing time together as a team than Canada does before our first qualifier.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

+1.

Frankly, reading the posts on this board today has made me more upset than the result of the game last night...

Totally agree with everything El Hombre said. Looking forward to WCQs this autumn.

[Lord Bob]

So you guys are thinking this team is good enough to qualify for 2014, or that it isn't but we should play the best players regardless?

[Keegan]

So you guys are thinking this team is good enough to qualify for 2014, or that it isn't but we should play the best players regardless?

It probably isn't good enough, but I think on paper we are definitely a top 6 team in CONCACAF... of course we should play the best players, its not like this is a once a year opportunity and we are in a rebuilding phase... thats over and done with, we've called a lot of players so far now its time to make the appropriate changes and call in the 20 that give us the best chance to get us to the World Cup. You miss 100% of the shots you never take. And hey if it's youth you want, David Edgar, Adam Straith, Russell Teibert, Paul Hamilton, Shaun Saiko, Ethan Gage, Kyle Porter, Nana Attakora are all guys who could potentially win a chance due to this debacle, we don't need to be reaching to U17s and killing our chances immediately, like wtf were people snorting after the match last night.

[Sam]

Not advocating playing U-17 players at all. I just think giving a teenager or two a shot during WCQ is not a bad idea. I'd stick with the current core, who I think can get us to the World Cup. They probably won't in all honesty, but the possibility however slight is there and it's much better than with playing all kids. However I don't think Lord Bob's idea of giving guys like Teibert a run out is a bad one...

[CanadaFTW]

So you guys are thinking this team is good enough to qualify for 2014, or that it isn't but we should play the best players regardless?

We are good enough to qualify, but we are one of a number of fairly comparable teams vieing for 1.5 spots, so no matter what, the chance of failure is quite high. But the current gloom and doom is waaaayyy overblown, and I don't understand it since we really got unlucky not to advance here. The USA got 3 pts from Guadaloupe and Panama, and we got 4 (and almost 6), yet we are to believe that we are hopeless? It wasn't like ANY team we played blew us off the pitch.

So to me, we clearly play our best players. Anything else is stupid defeatism that has no place in a supporters forum (or from supporters).

[Lord Bob]

At the top of the thread I did mention Alderson, which is just because I was going offhand: when I actually listed the guys I'd replace I took Gage instead.

[Keegan]

At the top of the thread I did mention Alderson, which is just because I was going offhand: when I actually listed the guys I'd replace I took Gage instead.

I'd take Saiko over Gage tbh, two years older and he's been playing first team football (very well too)

[Guest Ed]

Um, Lindsay can't break into the TFC side because he's got a broken leg. If healthy, he'd be playing regularly with Toronto, IMO.

What a wanker. Where's the Bobby Baun in him???

Back on topic, Lord Bob, you should get back on your meds; you're up and down like a yo-yo. If there is a youngster out there even remotely near to the standard of our starting 11, let's hear a name. I would say Teibert perhaps is the only one right now.

If Jackson had buried his ridiculous chance in the 1st half, I imagine we'd be throwing out prospective lineups vs Mexico now instead of crapping on our men.

I've been a firm supporter of Hart but he made a couple of decisions yesterday which really put us at a disadvantage. Starting Borjan for the cap was one. Subbing out Johnson was another. Both were poor decisions in my book.

Honestly though, it was a tough group, we had some very key injuries -- Atiba has been mentioned as the key loss, but I think a healthy Jakovic would really have helped in the last two group games, at least giving us more options at the back.

Good to see Klukowski to reestablish himself as one of the best LB's in CONCACAF. Combining with Simpson over in Turkey is going to be to our benefit when Qualifying starts.

[Lord Bob]

I'd take Saiko over Gage tbh, two years older and he's been playing first team football (very well too)

I can see Saiko being a good choice. We're into arguing over specifics rather than the concept, though.

[Avram Grant]

+1.

Yes, we didn't score a goal from open play. I fully realize that. However, it's not like we didn't have chances. That would be a more dire situation in my opinion. Simpson did not have a good tournament, DeRosario did not have a good tournament, Jackson didn't have a good tournament, and they're the ones being counted on to produce us. But, the fact of the matter is that they can and have played better for Canada. It's not as if they don't have the skill to compete at this level. More often than not, Jackson converts on his opportunity in the first 3 minutes of the Panama game, and DeRosario and Simpson are a little more accurate in their passes. For whatever reason, they didn't play to their potential over the last 7 days. This doesn't mean that they can't in the future.

In Canada's last 14 matches, going back to Macedonia in November '09, the team has scored two goals from true buildup play. Dunfield against Ecuador, and Atiba against Ukraine. You say "more often than not Jackson converts on his opportunity," but not for Canada he doesn't. He has scored one goal in his last 13 appearances for Canada and that was a mis-hit cross. Simpson has scored once over that time period and DeRo twice, from the two penalties in this tournament. I'm afraid that it's more than the last seven days that these guys aren't playing up to their potential for Canada.

I don't think Lord Bob is suggesting we field a U17 team, but how can a new face here or there, especially in the first round of WCQ be a bad thing for this team? The systems Hart has used are simply not producing goals. I thought maybe being together for an extended period (as opposed to meeting for random friendlies) would help with chemistry, but it's simply not working. At the very least a new face or two might shake up the system?