Toronto FC Women

[Vic]

Thought this was a good place to continue a thread that was started on CSN. It began as a news piece about the spark plug Josée Bélanger and segued into TFC women.

Unregistered - 04-29-2011, 08:46 PM

Toronto FC vs Canadian women who would win???

Vic - 04-29-2011, 08:51 PM

It's 2011, half the country's players are women, the Canadian women are ranked 6th in the World - and Toronto FC has no women's program whatsoever. That is completely unacceptable for the growth of the game in Canada.

Unregistered - Yesterday, 02:08 AM

How is it completely unacceptable? Perhaps if there was sufficient demand for they would have one, but doesn't seem like there is to me.

Vic - Yesterday, 09:55 AM

Walk into Berlin stadium in a couple of months and tell 75,000 people there is no demand. Or go into a stadium in 2014 or 2015 with 20,000 people and tell them that, or even better walk into Edmonton in 2002 and have a seat with 50,000 people and tell them they're not there.

Duane Rollins - Yesterday, 10:20 AM

I'm pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse. There is a big difference between the World Cup -- a once in four year celebration -- or a one off game nine years ago when the home team was playing for the world championship and the grind of club soccer. The average attendance in WPS last year was 3,642. I'm not sure you can make money with that.

@vic - although I actually agree that it would be great if the big clubs were all doing something (and I would hope your criticism extends to Montreal and, if they stabilize, Edmonton), but I also think it's important to remember that they aren't charities and it isn't our money that will be lost.

Back to the Present.

I've had enough conversations with people on women's soccer over the last half-century to know there's nothing you can say to convince anyone of anything. People leap to their comfort blankets of a well-worn stat or reference and wear them like a thought shield. Someone once said we make 10,000 decisions a day and the number we mentally challenge is in the single digits. Women's soccer, and before that women in the workplace, the vote, participating in sports - they're all evolutionary and poltically charged themes. Unfortunately for 99.9% of the population talking about women's soccer is never talking about women's soccer; it quickly becomes talking about women and their power and place in society. Talk to a man about women's soccer and it becomes wrapped in their views on women and far away from the game itself that's the topic.

The question was should Toronto FC have a women's program, and the response was is Toronto FC a charity. But the right question would have been is Toronto FC a men's team or are they a progressive institution that represents the pinnacle of leadership and excellence in the game in the community they serve?

Is a woman someone who makes meals and sews and then puts on your colours to come to the park to watch real athletes - or is she someone who should have the chance to come to the park to put on your jersey and fly down a wing, rip the twine, pull a ball out of the top corner, or clean out on the tackle?

There are about $45 million of government funds in BMO. Half of that comes from women. Would they have wanted their tax dollars going to TFC if they knew there would be no women's program?

MLSE is worth $2 billion, TFC $50 million. To quote Professor Doyle again - "Is making a corporate success of the MLS - and lining the pockets of the dubious executives who run it - the lone measure of the game's success? Is rooting for the Galaxy, and giving our dollars to the creepy monster that is AEG the only way to express one's loyalty? Aren't there other ways to imagine what the passion of fútbol fans looks like?" Isn't there a bigger way to "win" as an organization and in a community?

"Women make up half the population (slightly more, in fact). They earn money, they spend money. They spend their family's money." They also spend it at BMO.

Australia (Melbourne) | Brazil (Santos) | Canada (Whitecaps) | England (Arsenal) | France (Olympique Lyon) | Germany (Bayern Munich) | Italy (Roma) | Japan (Urawa) | Norway (Stabæk) | Scotland (Celtic) | Spain (Barcelona) | Sweden (Goteborg) | Switzerland (Grasshoppers) | Turkey (Trabzonspor)

It's happening all over the world. But you are inarguably and completely right; no one has to have anything to do with women's soccer. There's not a lot of it in places like the fervently Muslim Middle East. You don't need an excuse to be a "men's club." But like the phrase in Canadian culture and politics, it's something that went out of fashion a long time ago.

Share the dream with women.

[Jeremy]

Montreal could definitely use a women's team. Even though there are already two in the province participating in the W-League, a third one under the Impact umbrella would be a welcome addition (maybe move the Laval team?).

[AlanDouglas]

The average attendance in WPS last year was 3,642. I'm not sure you can make money with that.

You can't. On the other hand, the average attendance for men's professional soccer in Toronto in the two decades from 1987 to 2006 was less than 2,500. That didn't prevent the TFC men's team from drawing crowds.

[finchster]

A Toronto FCW isn't a bad idea but it would be a disaster in BMO, 3000 fans in a 21,000 stadium. A TFCW in Centennial, Varsity, or Lamport would make much more sense.

[TFC07]

Two things:

1. TFC is still building their men's academy. Maybe once they finish building their academy program, then maybe they'll invest in women soccer.

2. TFC doesn't have a women team; I can't see ML$E investing in women soccer unless they're pressure to like how they were pressured to invest in men's program by MLS.

[TFC07]

A Toronto FCW isn't a bad idea but it would be a disaster in BMO, 3000 fans in a 21,000 stadium. A TFCW in Centennial, Varsity, or Lamport would make much more sense.

I can see ML$E forcing TFC season ticket holders and half season ticket season buyers to buy tickets for women soccer by creating some kind of soccer package like they have with Toronto Marlies-TFC package deal in the past.

[finchster]

With the current attendance issues of TFC (not bad attendance just not the hottest ticket), I doubt MLSE would lower the value of their TFC tickets by forcing people to buy tickets for other products that are not doing well. If I were MLSE and starting a Women's team, I would offer STH cheap rates on women's season tickets.

In my opinion, the problem with women’s leagues in any sport is they try to live up to men’s leagues but they don’t have the fan interest or money to so. They play in cavernous arenas which are 10% full and they fly across the country to play far away teams increasing operating costs. They try to live up to men’s leagues instead of finding their own place in the sports market.

I think the W-League is a better model than the WPS and a team at this level isn’t a huge investment. The W-League is regional, short seasons and in smaller stadiums; all things women’s leagues should start off as and gradually grow. It isn’t Div 1 but it makes more sense in my opinion.

[Richard]

The Whitecaps have come up with a good idea for their W-League team first implented a couple of years ago. In 2011 they will play their regular season home schedule at seven different home venues throughout the province of British Columbia from Whistler to Penticton, as part of the Whitecaps Women's Soccer Series presented by Kia - in partnership with the Girls Metro Soccer League (GMSL). It thus becomes quite an event when the Whitecaps Women roll into town and the turnout to watch games has been pretty good. The 'Caps also do a great job with presentation too, dressing up the venue with Whitecaps branding, ensuring concessions are set up, a mascot is on hand to rev up the groupies and there is always an autograph session afterwards.

[Vic]

The Caps do two important things for women: they give them something to put on their chest that gives them self-respect and meaning, and they give them great coaching and a professional platform/package/operation. The next step is the big one and what Canadian women are literally starving for - a 6-8 month training program.

[Richard]

I am pretty confident that the Whitecaps W-League team operates at a substantial loss for the club. There have been rumblings about possibly moving up nevertheless, Bob Lenarduzzi has spoken in the past of the club's desire to one day enter WPS which is very likely considering Steve Nash's involvement.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Vic - Yesterday, 09:55 AM

Walk into Berlin stadium in a couple of months and tell 75,000 people there is no demand. Or go into a stadium in 2014 or 2015 with 20,000 people and tell them that, or even better walk into Edmonton in 2002 and have a seat with 50,000 people and tell them they're not there.

I think a team under the more realistic business models of the WPS or W-league would work. However, please don't be so naive as to cite WWC attendance numbers as some sort of mainstream indication of interest. Big event status and patriotism are what makes things like the women's world cup and the olympics relevant. It's not the sports themeselves that people care about. Olympic sports figured this out a long time ago and it took the WUSA 100 million in losses to figure out as well. Yes, the World Cup in Germany is set for massive attendance numbers. Back in the real world the women's bundesliga plays in front of a few hundred fans and relies on subsidies to pay its players.

[Vic]

please don't be so naive as to cite WWC attendance numbers as some sort of mainstream indication of interest

Did I refer to those as a mainstream indication of interest? Or did I say if you can get 50-75k out for an event then don't tell me you can't run a successful small business?

We averaged 1k per game for a World Junior Baseball Championship. Does that mean the Blue Jays can't exist? The women's U19 almost a decade ago brought in 50% of what the men's U20 did in 2007. Does that mean TFC the Caps and Impact should pack up?

God I hate numbers - 99 times out of 100 they're weak and inane (har har). I'm not trying to provide math for anything and my expectations are as reasonable as the next person.

All over the world women's soccer is the fastest growing element of the game. Those programs I linked to exist because full-service clubs are catching on to the women's game as charter members and stakeholders (because that's their nature) as well as developing the women's market because of it's cross-pollination with the men's game.

Canada is literally starving for professionally run women's programs. The Whitecaps are leaders with a legacy of excellence in providing for growth of the women's game and opportunites for the girls and women in their community.

Toronto FC are in their fifth year and breaking ground on new $20MM training facility. Their have absolutely no involvement with Canadian women whatsoever at any level. If you type in 'Toronto FC women' into Google - you get this thread. Any success Canadian women have is not in any way thanks to TFC - it's in spite of them.

p.s. Frankfurt and Postdam average 2,000 a game, Duisburg and Wolfsburg 1,000. Potsdam have also had 8,000 a couple of times for league and Cup games.

[Vic]

And back to CSN... http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1606-The-gender-divide-Should-TFC-be-in-the-women-s-game

[Rocket Robin]

I hope to attend the W-League Toronto Lady Lynx games again this season.

This year the team is playing three of their games mid day on Wednesdays (that's half their schedule).

This time draws their largest attendances....the crowd is full of school kids and/or summer campers. 1500 fans. Good marketing move.

The TFC Academy (who have now given the first team six players in the last year and a half) drew mostly under 300 (three hundred) last year.

The Toronto FC Reserves drew 15 (fifteen) fans to the game in Downsview (which was called off for a blizzard) and only 200 which then slipped to 75 (after fans finished their beer) at BMO Field after the Columbus game.

[Vic]

They're doubleheaders with the men's Lynx team too. The majority of women's talent in Canada has always been in the GTA and it appeared last year the LL were more serious about acquiring it on the field. I noticed Marton signed for the Caps so I imagine they're not there yet though.

[Drew Shaw]

Some good points, Vic.

IMO every MLS, NASL, and PDL club in Canada should have a W-League team. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Firstly, for business reasons. It increases your club's community presence. It increases the number of women who will support your club. It helps the national team programme, which creates more interest in club football.

Secondly, because there is more to life than business. Somethings are just "the right thing to do". It's called morality, it's called ethics, it's called integrity, it's called values. Fathers, husbands, brothers, and sons still have work to do in supporting the women in their lives, and helping our society reach true equality for women. It's 2011, and this is Canada, where more than half of our Olympic medals come from women. So let's support our female athletes.

That doesn't mean Toronto FC or Vancouver Whitecaps MUST join WPS (though they should); but it does mean that they MUST have a W-League team. If our MLS teams don't think they have an interest in improving ALL aspects of Canadian soccer - national teams, women's game, youth development, fan culture - then do they REALLY deserve our patronage?

[Soccer 19]

why does it have to be a W team ? why can't it be a WPSL team. Both are equal in the USA POP & the WPSL has cheaperr franchise fees & the WPSL seems to be associated with the WPS. Ever see a W league player called up to the WPS ?

Cheer 19

[Richard]

USL W-League franchise costs from $75K to $150K plus annual administration fees. The WPSL charges a one time entry fee of $2,500 and an annual $3,250 fee. Figures come from the respective league websites. Obviously very different league structures and business plans.

[Vic]

The WPSL isn't setup as an international league. The standard is also considerably below the upper end of the W. Any league is the icing though, the cake is the quality and length of the program and training.

[Drew Shaw]

why does it have to be a W team ? why can't it be a WPSL team. Both are equal in the USA POP & the WPSL has cheaperr franchise fees & the WPSL seems to be associated with the WPS. Ever see a W league player called up to the WPS ?

Cheer 19

Could be either. As long as they have a team. I was very surprised that the Victoria Highlanders moved their womens team from the local and inexpensive PCSL to the USL, which means a lot more travel for them. They know they won't break even with their womens team, which is why I'm impressed with their ambition. I hope Alex Campbell has either the pockets or the contacts to follow through on his ambition to move to USL Pro or the NASL, but if he's willing to lose money on a higher tier womens league, maybe he does. Cheers.

[jpg75]

I don't think the attendance figures for the Lady Lynx would indicate demand for a second team in this city. A second team would only draw away fans from the LL and would split the talent pool in half making both teams less competitive.

[Drew Shaw]

I don't think the attendance figures for the Lady Lynx would indicate demand for a second team in this city. A second team would only draw away fans from the LL and would split the talent pool in half making both teams less competitive.

The women's game has nothing to do with fan demand. It's purposes are to give the women a place to play, and to develop young players for the national team programme.

There are W-League teams in London and Hamilton, but in Toronto (5 million people) there are enough players for Toronto FC to also run a top women's team. There are two in the British Columbia; Vancouver and Victoria have less than 3 million people. Sure soccer is big per capita in BC, but it's almost as big per capita in Ontario.

However, it would be cruel on the Lynx club to get kicked by TFC again . . .

[Redcoatsforever]

I don't think the attendance figures for the Lady Lynx would indicate demand for a second team in this city. A second team would only draw away fans from the LL and would split the talent pool in half making both teams less competitive.

The Lynx are a shambles of an organization, TFC would be doing a big service to the women's game by getting a W-League or WPS team. Just by virtue of brand recognition, the status of the team would be much higher than the other Canadian women's clubs (Whitecaps excluded). We could even repatriate most of the CWNT, and make it so that they don't have to compromise between a paycheque and representing us with Big Red.