Canuck Oranje Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 While there were always a few foreign players earning a living in China, it seems some of the bigger clubs are getting serious. I'm not sure where this is going. The level of bidding coming from China first came to light for me when the Brazilian press talked about Paulao going to China. Paulao, a former central defender for a team I follow (Gremio Prudente), was acquired from Brazil after an arrangement had been made for him to play for Gremio of Porto Alegre. Rumours in Brazil had the transfer fee being around 2 million euros (transfermarkt has it at 2.2million) shared between the two Gremios. While this might not seem all that unusual, it is when you consider that Paulao is only 25 and burst onto the national scene in Brazil last year and was at the beginning of this year, a first choice central defender at Gremio Porto Alegre and a fan favourite. Based on his natural ability and pure athleticism, it would not have been much of a stretch to predict that he might one day gain a cap or two with the Brazilian national team. I suspect this might lengthen the odds of that happening. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90779/90871/7337226.html The reviving Chinese Super League (CSL) is attracting more and more foreign coaches and players. Eleven coaches at the 16 CSL teams are from abroad, including Frenchman Omar Troussier, who signed a three-year contract with Shenzhen Ruby FC in February. Known as the "White Witch Doctor", Troussier is well known to Chinese fans for his success with the Japanese national team, after he led the Blue Samurai to the continental title at the 2000 Asian Cup and made the round of 16 at the 2002 World Cup. Besides newcomer Troussier, big names like Dutchman Arie Haan and Croatians Miroslav Blazevic and Branko Ivankovic, have already made their marks here. Under the guidance of Ivankovic, Shandong Luneng claimed its fourth first-tier league title two rounds ahead of the end of the season. Tianjin Teda, tutored by Haan, finished second and won its first AFC Champions League berth. The inexperienced Shanghai Shenhua finished third under Blazevic, who became the head coach of the Chinese Olympic team after the Guangzhou Asian Games. According to CCTV 5, there will be 65 foreign soccer players competing in the CSL this season, which has a total of 553 registered players, surpassing the K-league's 50 overseas players in a total pool of 624 and the J-league's 45 out of 530 (players with dual nationalities not included). Guangzhou Evergrande, which has vowed to win the AFC Champions League within five years, took the lead in the transfer market. The club first signed Brazilian striker Muriqui from the Atletico Mineiro with a club record fee of $3.5 million last summer. Then it finalized three four-year deals with Brazilian centerback Paulao from Gremio Prudente, midfielder Renato from Botafogo and forward Cleo from Serbia's Partizan, who scored 10 goals in 12 matches in the 2010-2011 European Champions League. Cleo's transfer fee of 3.2 million euros ($4.5 million) is a Chinese league record. "The appearance of clubs like Guangzhou Evergrande will bring fans back to the stadium, and the participation of outstanding foreign players will make our domestic league more attractive and competitive," said national team defender Li Weifeng. "There are many talented players in the Brazilian league, their coming shows some Chinese clubs are determined to improve." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 "Eleven coaches at the 16 CSL teams are from abroad, including Frenchman Omar Troussier" So that's what he's calling himself these days!? My co-worker (who is a Red Star fan) was telling me about the Cleo transfer and how he and others in Serbia see it as the soccer world turning on it's head....Guangzhou just released Charles Gbeke, makes perfect sense why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Troussier's club picked up Maki, who is kind of the Japanese Rob Friend, and who was playing in the Russian League most recently. They must be willing to pay a decent salary to a lot of the foreigners and provide a decent footballing life. Maybe it's the rebirth of the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Troussier's club picked up Maki, who is kind of the Japanese Rob Friend, and who was playing in the Russian League most recently. They must be willing to pay a decent salary to a lot of the foreigners and provide a decent footballing life. Maybe it's the rebirth of the league? That may be true but I am not sure Maki is much evidence of this as I suspect the market for him was not very hot. He hasn't had a good season since 2008 and his 2010 consisted of 13 games with no goals in the Japanese 2nd division and 9 games with no goals in the Russian premiership. This is a guy trying to resurrect his career as opposed to a top signing like the Brazilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 They've still gotta prove to the public the corruption and match fixing is a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAS Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 They've still gotta prove to the public the corruption and match fixing is a thing of the past. I agree completely. The rise of China as an economic power will ensure that their clubs will have more money to spend on players, but to become a top league, they will also need legitimacy. Nobody will respect the league if the culture of gambling is not reduced, and the corruption and match fixing eliminated. Otherwise, even the Chinese will stick to supporting EPL clubs. It will take many years for the quality of Chinese players to improve enough for them to form the core of a quality league. In the meantime, clubs will have to use almost all foreigners (unlikely - there could be quotas, and Chinese have a lot of national pride/zenophobia) to improve, or accept being like Quatar or Dubai for a while. Atleast these Chinese clubs are going after Brazillians in their prime instead of just being a retirement league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdude Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I remember that Ailton (great goal scorer at Werder Bremen) was playing in China last year. So there are some guys who played there that have been great players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 I tend to be of the view that this is likely to be an old NASL-like league. A little more on the Paulao transfer. From reports in Brazil at the time, the transfer happened so fast that it irritated Gremio's coach because he was still planning to start him in a mid-week Libertadores game and the deal came to light and was done in just a few days. This was a deal that needed the agreement of the player and two Brazilian clubs. From all accounts, both clubs felt it was a deal they couldn't say no to. My sense is that the Chinese teams are paying a premium for players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Another huge transfer to China: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/931862/guangzhou-smash-chinese-transfer-record-to-sign-fluminense%27s-conca?campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5901 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 "Conca, who has consistently been one of the Brazilian top flight's best players over the past couple of years, has signed a three-and-a-half year deal, according to reports in China. While no precise figure has been placed on the transfer fee, it is thought Conca stands to earn a remarkable $10.4 million a year, which would see the 28-year-old join the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi as one of the world's best paid players." Good lord! Any idea of the fee paid to Fluminense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If you guys would like to know more about Chinese football, here's a good news source (in English) http://wildeastfootball.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 The transfer fee is not earth shattering. I haven't been able to confirm but I've heard 10 million Euros. It's the salary that's a mind blowing 38 million Euros over thirty months. And Conca probably wouldn't be the type of player that would interest the big European clubs at 28, and especially at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiakTFC Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If you look across the world and made a list of leagues for who has come the furthest in the past five years, along with MLS it would be Russia and China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If you look across the world and made a list of leagues for who has come the furthest in the past five years, along with MLS it would be Russia and China. Russia made some big signings but it doesn't look like they've improved much. They just switched to a Autumn-Spring schedule though so maybe that will help. I would say the German Bundesliga improved the most. Five years ago it was unthinkable that they would pass Serie A and La Liga in terms of overall quality. Now they've definitely passed one, and passing the other looks inevitable (if it hasn't happened already). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Russia made some big signings but it doesn't look like they've improved much. They just switched to a Autumn-Spring schedule though so maybe that will help. I would say the German Bundesliga improved the most. Five years ago it was unthinkable that they would pass Serie A and La Liga in terms of overall quality. Now they've definitely passed one, and passing the other looks inevitable (if it hasn't happened already). It will be interesting to see how the Russian league evolves over the next few years as the world cup stadium infrastructure revolution takes hold. The move from run down Soviet track stadiums to modern roofed venues with all of the revenue generating bells and whistles could be a real game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I'm not entirely sure how much the Chinese league is improving as a league because all of the signings talked about in this thread are all to one team so it could be one team attempting to be an Asian super team. As for other leagues improving, i can't speak for the Russian league and would tend to agree with the comments on Germany being much stronger than five years ago. I also would say that one shouldn't underestimate the rate of change that is happening in Brazil. While it isn't entirely evident yet, the last two Libertadores have been won by Brazilian teams and greater improvement is likely still to come. While there are still five or six big clubs that are somewhat handcuffed by debt levels (Fluminense being one), huge increases in TV and sponsorship revenues are being realized. Combine that with a decreasing number of financial opportunities for Brazilian players in second tier leagues in Europe, many are now staying home or coming back. The player assembly-line also continues to become more productive with the development systems of big clubs being supplemented by the creation of sophisticated development clubs like Gremio Barueri, Pao de Acucar EC, Desportivo Brasil, Ole Brasil, and Primeira Camisa along with more sophisticated training techniques being used at smaller clubs. As a consequence, you are already seeing the quality of the game improve, especially at the Serie B level and somewhat at Serie A. Having other quality players available is also one of the reasons why Brazilian clubs will still take offers for players if they are high enough. A couple of examples of the changes: 1. The only way the big European clubs will be able to pry Neymar from Santos is the pay the full buyout of his contract (45 million Euros) and offer a salary greater than what can be offered by Santos. But with Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, and Barcelona willing to pay the buyout, Santos is not big enough (probably only about 10th largest in Brazil) to match the cash likely to be offered. 2. If you look at the fortunes of couple of stars from 2008 -2009, Keirrison and Val Baiano, they have fallen but not because of their poor play. While having scored 21 times in Serie A in 2008 and 5 goals in 7 games in 2009 (before being transferred to Barcelona), the still 22 year-old Keirrison is stuck finding playing time behind the veteran Borges, Rychely (a discovery from Santo Andre) and Neymar when he is not on international duty. Val Baiano (just turned 30, while scoring 18 times in 2009 in Serie A, currently is playing in Serie B after being released earlier this year by Flamengo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Please take the Chinese Super League off any list of much improved leagues. I've watched it for five years and would be hard pressed to see any improvement. Even if the foreign quota were comprised of top quality premiership dynamos, the vast majority of the players are still very very poor - and this in a football hungry country with vast population and financial resources. I won't even get into the ridiculous (and very open) corruption that goes on at all levels of the game here. Ah...yes. Good times though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I'm not entirely sure how much the Chinese league is improving as a league because all of the signings talked about in this thread are all to one team so it could be one team attempting to be an Asian super team. As for other leagues improving, i can't speak for the Russian league and would tend to agree with the comments on Germany being much stronger than five years ago. I also would say that one shouldn't underestimate the rate of change that is happening in Brazil. While it isn't entirely evident yet, the last two Libertadores have been won by Brazilian teams and greater improvement is likely still to come. While there are still five or six big clubs that are somewhat handcuffed by debt levels (Fluminense being one), huge increases in TV and sponsorship revenues are being realized. Combine that with a decreasing number of financial opportunities for Brazilian players in second tier leagues in Europe, many are now staying home or coming back. The player assembly-line also continues to become more productive with the development systems of big clubs being supplemented by the creation of sophisticated development clubs like Gremio Barueri, Pao de Acucar EC, Desportivo Brasil, Ole Brasil, and Primeira Camisa along with more sophisticated training techniques being used at smaller clubs. As a consequence, you are already seeing the quality of the game improve, especially at the Serie B level and somewhat at Serie A. Having other quality players available is also one of the reasons why Brazilian clubs will still take offers for players if they are high enough. A couple of examples of the changes: 1. The only way the big European clubs will be able to pry Neymar from Santos is the pay the full buyout of his contract (45 million Euros) and offer a salary greater than what can be offered by Santos. But with Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, and Barcelona willing to pay the buyout, Santos is not big enough (probably only about 10th largest in Brazil) to match the cash likely to be offered. 2. If you look at the fortunes of couple of stars from 2008 -2009, Keirrison and Val Baiano, they have fallen but not because of their poor play. While having scored 21 times in Serie A in 2008 and 5 goals in 7 games in 2009 (before being transferred to Barcelona), the still 22 year-old Keirrison is stuck finding playing time behind the veteran Borges, Rychely (a discovery from Santo Andre) and Neymar when he is not on international duty. Val Baiano (just turned 30, while scoring 18 times in 2009 in Serie A, currently is playing in Serie B after being released earlier this year by Flamengo. Aren't buyout figures completely meaningless anyways? I believe Barca just announced that Pedro has a €90 million buyout. I mean, please!! Anybody offers half that and Pedro is a goner! And a bit off-topic, but €45m for Neymar? Hello - rip-off! He's not that good, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 It isn't my intent to argue the worth of Neymar but apparently Santos is already saying as is his agent that Barcelona and Real Madrid have already agreed to pay that amount and are currently in discussions with the player's representatives. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2011-07-06-1399654306_x.htm For the record, my sense is that he will likely end up being another Robinho in Europe (A player expected to be great but falls short). Personally, I think Lucas of Sao Paulo is much better and has greater potential, but, also more difficult to pry away from Brazil because Sao Paulo is a much bigger and wealthier club than Santos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I can understand Spanish clubs wanting Neymar, but why any English club would buy him *cough*Chelsea*cough* beats me. Watching the guy in a handful of games the past 12 months it's evident he's going to have trouble with physical play. The comparison to Robinho is dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I can understand Spanish clubs wanting Neymar, but why any English club would buy him *cough*Chelsea*cough* beats me. Watching the guy in a handful of games the past 12 months it's evident he's going to have trouble with physical play. The comparison to Robinho is dead on. I can think of a few other young Brazilian players that would likely do much better in England than a Neymar and would come at a much lower cost but that would even be more off topic for this thread. Regarding moving to the Chinese league, I think the players in question have effectively given up on their National Team aspirations because I doubt the Argentinian or Brazilian team would even consider a player playing in China. That's why the salary is so high even relative to the transfer fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpoma Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Russia made some big signings but it doesn't look like they've improved much. They just switched to a Autumn-Spring schedule though so maybe that will help. I would say the German Bundesliga improved the most. Five years ago it was unthinkable that they would pass Serie A and La Liga in terms of overall quality. Now they've definitely passed one, and passing the other looks inevitable (if it hasn't happened already). With respect to Serie A, I'd say Serie A's quality has fallen more than anything. That bribery scandal from a few years back has really hurt Italian football. Juventus and Milan are still not the same powerhouse clubs they were prior. If it weren't for Internazionale the past few years, Italian football would have fallen off the radar even moreso. Also, the quality of Italian players has fallen off. The national team had a poor 2010 cup, and they've not had a team in the U-x competitions qualify recently. This drop off of talent has affected the league as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 The Serie A has shot itself in the foot with its onerous non-EU passport holder restrictions. Last year teams were limited to only one non-EU passport holder. They just announced they're raising it to two for the coming season in response to their falling UEFA coefficient but that's still ridiculously low. The Bundesliga is far more liberal in this regard and it's an understated advantage of that league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Russia made some big signings but it doesn't look like they've improved much. They just switched to a Autumn-Spring schedule though so maybe that will help. I would say the German Bundesliga improved the most. Five years ago it was unthinkable that they would pass Serie A and La Liga in terms of overall quality. Now they've definitely passed one, and passing the other looks inevitable (if it hasn't happened already). If you don't think Russia has improved a lot you must not be following Russian soccer at all. The Russian league has been steadily improving for a long time and I think just about anyone would rank them as the 6th best in Europe now (Portugal had a good European season but it was probably a flukey one off and I think the Russian league is a lot more solid throughout the table than the Portugese one). The Russian league really declined in the chaos after the end of the Soviet Union but made a pretty rapid climb up the ranks once things stabilized there. It is not big name signings that have improved them, rather they have been able to keep their own players at home, sign a lot of good Eastern European players that the western leagues have overlooked, and signed and developed a lot of talented young South American and African players. The signing of big name players has been fairly recent and it remains to be seen whether that elevates them even higher. At the moment a lot of the big name players are past their prime so until they start signing more big names in the prime of their career there probably will not be a big increase in playing level. As a long time Budesliga observer, I would also agree with those saying that the Bundesliga has not improved that much and it surpassing Italy is mostly due to the decline in the Italian league. The Bundesliga was always a little underrated anyway and the Italian decline is nothing new, it has been underway for at least a decade. However, a few top teams have kept their results in Europe respectable. I am not sure I would say that the German league is significantly better than the Italian either, they are probably at par and have been so for some time. It is quite a while since Italy was a really top league. I also think the Bundesliga is still pretty far from being the equal to or surpassing La Liga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If you don't think Russia has improved a lot you must not be following Russian soccer at all. The Russian league has been steadily improving for a long time and I think just about anyone would rank them as the 6th best in Europe now (Portugal had a good European season but it was probably a flukey one off and I think the Russian league is a lot more solid throughout the table than the Portugese one). I agree, but I was just referring to the last 5 years only. The RPL definitely had a steady improvement in European results from 2000 to 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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