Can MLS get Canada back into the World Cup?

[canada_soccer]

"I would say that four years from now we might qualify for the World Cup but it would be by accident. But in eight years with what will be happening, we could qualify on merit and continue to keep doing it time after time on merit. Concede a spot to the U.S., but we shouldn't keep losing to teams like Costa Rica and El Salvador. " - Bob Lenarduzzi (http://www.theprovince.com/sports/beautiful+beginning/4473326/story.html)

Yesterday when I went to the Whitecap's inaugural game against Toronto FC, I saw something that I never would have imagined in my lifetime: fathers bringing their sons to the match, and their sons, with excitement all over their face, cheering the Whitecaps on, and their sons possibly dreaming of playing for the Whitecaps one day.

Until Toronto entered the MLS in 2007, Canada has been in soccer limbo for 20 years since the folding of the NASL and Canada's last entry in the World Cup. For boys across Canada, soccer was a foreign sport - something you play in elementary, but beyond that, there was no aspirations to play professionally since the collapse of the NASL.

What I saw at the Whitecaps game though gave me hope. For a moment, I could see all the boys that came with their family finding soccer exciting and dreaming of playing it professionally one day. What we need is a new generation of boys persisting with soccer up to the professional level - look at what the MLS has done for the US National team since 1996.

So, my question is a simple one: can MLS get Canada back into the World Cup? Can MLS do for Canada what is has done for the US?

[canucklefan]

I think Canada may get some benefit by getting Canadian franchises in MLS but IMO, MLS serves only one interest, US interests.

[Free kick]

It does matter whose interest the MLS league office serves. In fact the only interest that a league office serves is that of the team owners and the teAm owners are only interested in their investment in the team. Whether it's US or canada is irrelevant.

CMNT will benefit from MLS clubs in canada because it's developing players for them through academies and providing a professional platform at home for aspiring professionals. And, you don't need to have another passport.

[canucklefan]

It does matter whose interest the MLS league office serves. In fact the only interest that a league office serves is that of the team owners and the teAm owners are only interested in their investment in the team. Whether it's US or canada is irrelevant.

CMNT will benefit from MLS clubs in canada because it's developing players for them through academies and providing a professional platform at home for aspiring professionals. And, you don't need to have another passport.

I don't agree. We seem to be happy with the Academies and no one says nothing about the number of Americans in TFC and Whitecaps squads. Also, the Whitecaps have an American DP and are involved with developpment of the kid Salgado. The US gets inevitably a lot of benefit awarding franchises to Canada.

How many Americans started yesterday for TFC and Whitecaps? How many Canadians started?

EDIT: I almost forgot... the famous Canadian quota....

[Cheeta]

^ Echo that.

I think most everyone agrees the Canadian MLS teams needed some sort of relaxing of the domestic quota to help them compete but the CSA allowed things to go WAY too far. There is more than one way to approach this problem but effectively eliminating the domestic quota for Canadian franchises in the way they did is just stupid & insulting.

[Alex]

Remember the MLS got the US into the world cup after they hosted it in 94. I dont see why It couldnt do the same for us considering we dont even have to beat any of US, Mexico or Honduras. When you look at it that way, its very possible.

[Alex]

if it only serves one interest then we wouldnt have any teams

[Macksam]

I think Canada may get some benefit by getting Canadian franchises in MLS but IMO, MLS serves only one interest, US interests.

Funny thing is, while some Canadian fans share the sentiment that MLS only serves US interest, a lot of US fans say the opposite that MLS does not serve US interests.

[Blackdude]

I think it's more the pro clubs' academies that will lead us to MLS. We've seen the success at the U-17 and not this cycle but the next one, we'll bring a lot of player that have been trained here and that didn't have to move away from home. That's what will help in the long run.

[theaub]

Agreed. The MLS league as a stand-alone entity (ie having Canadians play on the MLS senior teams) does nothing for Canadian soccer, but the academy system that's developing as a result of it will hopefully help, and awareness of the sport sure can't be a bad thing.

[lazlo_80]

MLS is helping a ton, no question. Personally I think the Canada quota should be dropped completely. You have to be up to a certain level to play for an MLS team, I believe 7 canadian players played yesterday in the game, Right away, Makabuya and Tiebert are two players you can point to that have had a direct impact from the existence of these teams. This will only continue to improve as Toronto is about to announce they're 14 million development and training academy and Vancouver leads the charge with a serious residence academy.

To think this just benefits americans is short sighted.

[redhat]

MLS is just one piece of the puzzle, albeit an important one. It allows for professional academies , another stepping stone for developing professional footballers.

You want Canada in the World Cup? You need the player depth, you need infrastructure, you need serious funding, and you need a real professional league. Costa Rica's league cannot rival European leagues, but it helped its national WC entry for years. Same with Honduras, Mexico, El Salvador, Peru, Chile ... every serious nation for that matter.

[tovan1]

I don't agree. We seem to be happy with the Academies and no one says nothing about the number of Americans in TFC and Whitecaps squads. Also, the Whitecaps have an American DP and are involved with developpment of the kid Salgado. The US gets inevitably a lot of benefit awarding franchises to Canada.

How many Americans started yesterday for TFC and Whitecaps? How many Canadians started?

EDIT: I almost forgot... the famous Canadian quota....

First, the Whitecap's DP Hassli is French not American. If you are referring to DeMerit, he has already fully developed as a professional and having him play for a Canadian team increases his exposure to our MNT. Having 1 more US MNT playing regularly against Canadians in MLS not only gives our players valuable experience with US players of his caliber but also allows us to get a better understanding of how he/they play too (their strengths, weaknesses, etc).

As for yesterday, Cann, Attakora, DeRosario started for TFC and Zavarise was subbed in later in the game. Attakora benefitted by having MLS in Toronto and has been quoted as saying it gave him an opportunity to develop into a pro player. Also, Zavarise would likely be languishing in some European league had it not been for TFC providing him a place to play this season. Both have caps for the MNT and are strengthening their case to be included in future squads by getting regular minutes in a decent league. The Makubaya kid that subbed in is also Canadian.

Dunfield and Teibert started for the 'caps. The Whitecaps have provided Dunfield the opportunity to play for his hometown team and playing for Vancouver has brought him back into the MNT fold. Hart said he needed to play at a higher level than English League 2 so he left his team there and came home. He had loads of potential but his career went downhill after his stint a Manchester City. Options for Canadians were limited back then and he would've benefited greatly by having a Canadian MLS team to play for. Now that he has that chance, he's making up for lost time. As for Teibert, this kid has some serious potential and I would argue that he's one of the most promising Canadians talents in awhile. He had a brief stint with TFC Academy then made the move to the Whitecap's Residency where he was groomed into a pro. He's only 18 and is expected to be a regular starter in MLS. MLS provided him a direct path to becoming a pro and likely a key role with the MNT in the future.

There are some Canadians playing abroad who could be getting significant minutes playing in MLS vs warming the bench somewhere in Europe (see Edgar, Stalteri - if he's even seeing the bench at all, etc). Compare Edgar to Will Johnson, both pretty much the same age. One was a youth player at Blackburn the other at Newcastle. MLS gave Johnson the chance to get regular minutes and further develop his game, he probably has 100x more minutes than Edgar who hasn't been able to get regular first team minutes. Who has progressed more as a player? undoubtedly Johnson has. Not to mention the academy programs that have been established in Toronto, Vancouver, and now Montreal.

Sure the US does benefit from Canadian MLS teams but Canadians and the Canadian program also benefit. With Montreal to come and further development of the pro game in Edmonton and potentially Ottawa and Hamilton, we are heading in the right direction. We might not see the benefits overnight but they will come slowly but surely.

BTW, I counted the following starters from yesterdays game:

Toronto:

4 Americans

3 Canadians

2 Dutch

1 Swiss

1 Brazilian

Vancouver:

3 Americans

2 Canadians

2 Swiss

1 New Zealander

1 Ghanaian

1 French

1 from St. Kitts and Nevis

[TFC07]

First, the Whitecap's DP Hassli is French not American. If you are referring to DeMerit, he has already fully developed as a professional and having him play for a Canadian team increases his exposure to our MNT. Having 1 more US MNT playing regularly against Canadians in MLS not only gives our players valuable experience with US players of his caliber but also allows us to get a better understanding of how he/they play too (their strengths, weaknesses, etc).

As for yesterday, Cann, Attakora, DeRosario started for TFC and Zavarise was subbed in later in the game. Attakora benefitted by having MLS in Toronto and has been quoted as saying it gave him an opportunity to develop into a pro player. Also, Zavarise would likely be languishing in some European league had it not been for TFC providing him a place to play this season. Both have caps for the MNT and are strengthening their case to be included in future squads by getting regular minutes in a decent league. The Makubaya kid that subbed in is also Canadian.

Dunfield and Teibert started for the 'caps. The Whitecaps have provided Dunfield the opportunity to play for his hometown team and playing for Vancouver has brought him back into the MNT fold. Hart said he needed to play at a higher level than English League 2 so he left his team there and came home. He had loads of potential but his career went downhill after his stint a Manchester City. Options for Canadians were limited back then and he would've benefited greatly by having a Canadian MLS team to play for. Now that he has that chance, he's making up for lost time. As for Teibert, this kid has some serious potential and I would argue that he's one of the most promising Canadians talents in awhile. He had a brief stint with TFC Academy then made the move to the Whitecap's Residency where he was groomed into a pro. He's only 18 and is expected to be a regular starter in MLS. MLS provided him a direct path to becoming a pro and likely a key role with the MNT in the future.

There are some Canadians playing abroad who could be getting significant minutes playing in MLS vs warming the bench somewhere in Europe (see Edgar, Stalteri - if he's even seeing the bench at all, etc). Compare Edgar to Will Johnson, both pretty much the same age. One was a youth player at Blackburn the other at Newcastle. MLS gave Johnson the chance to get regular minutes and further develop his game, he probably has 100x more minutes than Edgar who hasn't been able to get regular first team minutes. Who has progressed more as a player? undoubtedly Johnson has. Not to mention the academy programs that have been established in Toronto, Vancouver, and now Montreal.

Sure the US does benefit from Canadian MLS teams but Canadians and the Canadian program also benefit. With Montreal to come and further development of the pro game in Edmonton and potentially Ottawa and Hamilton, we are heading in the right direction. We might not see the benefits overnight but they will come slowly but surely.

BTW, I counted the following starters from yesterdays game:

Toronto:

4 Americans

3 Canadians

2 Dutch

1 Swiss

1 Brazilian

Vancouver:

3 Americans

2 Canadians

2 Swiss

1 New Zealander

1 Ghanaian

1 French

1 from St. Kitts and Nevis

Good post.

Funny how all TFC players who played bad yesterday were Americans (excluding Cann but he was playing out of position though).

[canucklefan]

Agreed. The MLS league as a stand-alone entity (ie having Canadians play on the MLS senior teams) does nothing for Canadian soccer, but the academy system that's developing as a result of it will hopefully help, and awareness of the sport sure can't be a bad thing.

No doubt the U17 got benefit from the Academies but if the developpment of these players stop there, then I think it's waste of time and effort (BTW, before anyone comes to conclusions from this comment, I'm not suggestiong that Canadians clubs should field 11 players from the Academies every game).

For many years, lots of talented players could not develop after the age of 20 because there were no professional clubs in the country. I'd like to believe this situation is going to change in a near future, but if the Canadians clubs are going to field 2-3 Canadians per game...

Anyway, I appreciate the work TFC has done with its Academy players.

[canucklefan]

MLS is helping a ton, no question. Personally I think the Canada quota should be dropped completely. You have to be up to a certain level to play for an MLS team, I believe 7 canadian players played yesterday in the game, Right away, Makabuya and Tiebert are two players you can point to that have had a direct impact from the existence of these teams. This will only continue to improve as Toronto is about to announce they're 14 million development and training academy and Vancouver leads the charge with a serious residence academy.

To think this just benefits americans is short sighted.

Ok....

I think Canada may get some benefit by getting Canadian franchises in MLS but IMO, MLS serves only one interest, US interests.

[Footscray]

I dunno if anyone caught the interview with Garber at halftime yesterday but he specifically said that one of MLS's goals to further the league and soccer in North America is to strengthen the Canadian national team to improve the rivalry between Canada and the US.

I personally think that MLS will improve the national team massively - if it hadn't been for 3 guys, Hutch, De Rosario and deguz who developed in spite of the system in Canada, our last 6 years or so would have been incredibly dark. Having reliable youth academies in the country that consistently produce competent professional players vs. hoping 4 or 5 sprout up somewhere is night and day to me. I also think that having pro teams to aspire to will have an impact.

I don't think all the players need to make an MLS team either. A guy like Gage getting his training in Canada and getting a contract overseas is great too - it's about recognizing the best potential among Canadian youth and making sure they get trained.

[Saviola7]

First, the Whitecap's DP Hassli is French not American. If you are referring to DeMerit, he has already fully developed as a professional and having him play for a Canadian team increases his exposure to our MNT. Having 1 more US MNT playing regularly against Canadians in MLS not only gives our players valuable experience with US players of his caliber but also allows us to get a better understanding of how he/they play too (their strengths, weaknesses, etc).

As for yesterday, Cann, Attakora, DeRosario started for TFC and Zavarise was subbed in later in the game. Attakora benefitted by having MLS in Toronto and has been quoted as saying it gave him an opportunity to develop into a pro player. Also, Zavarise would likely be languishing in some European league had it not been for TFC providing him a place to play this season. Both have caps for the MNT and are strengthening their case to be included in future squads by getting regular minutes in a decent league. The Makubaya kid that subbed in is also Canadian.

Dunfield and Teibert started for the 'caps. The Whitecaps have provided Dunfield the opportunity to play for his hometown team and playing for Vancouver has brought him back into the MNT fold. Hart said he needed to play at a higher level than English League 2 so he left his team there and came home. He had loads of potential but his career went downhill after his stint a Manchester City. Options for Canadians were limited back then and he would've benefited greatly by having a Canadian MLS team to play for. Now that he has that chance, he's making up for lost time. As for Teibert, this kid has some serious potential and I would argue that he's one of the most promising Canadians talents in awhile. He had a brief stint with TFC Academy then made the move to the Whitecap's Residency where he was groomed into a pro. He's only 18 and is expected to be a regular starter in MLS. MLS provided him a direct path to becoming a pro and likely a key role with the MNT in the future.

There are some Canadians playing abroad who could be getting significant minutes playing in MLS vs warming the bench somewhere in Europe (see Edgar, Stalteri - if he's even seeing the bench at all, etc). Compare Edgar to Will Johnson, both pretty much the same age. One was a youth player at Blackburn the other at Newcastle. MLS gave Johnson the chance to get regular minutes and further develop his game, he probably has 100x more minutes than Edgar who hasn't been able to get regular first team minutes. Who has progressed more as a player? undoubtedly Johnson has. Not to mention the academy programs that have been established in Toronto, Vancouver, and now Montreal.

Sure the US does benefit from Canadian MLS teams but Canadians and the Canadian program also benefit. With Montreal to come and further development of the pro game in Edmonton and potentially Ottawa and Hamilton, we are heading in the right direction. We might not see the benefits overnight but they will come slowly but surely.

BTW, I counted the following starters from yesterdays game:

Toronto:

4 Americans

3 Canadians

2 Dutch

1 Swiss

1 Brazilian

Vancouver:

3 Americans

2 Canadians

2 Swiss

1 New Zealander

1 Ghanaian

1 French

1 from St. Kitts and Nevis

+9000!

Seriously though. Somebody tell me where Dunfield and Zavarise (+ maybe Cann) are playing without VWFC and TFC?

[JoeSoccerFan]

Regardless of whether more quality Canadian players are developed by MLS teams, it certainly cannot be hurting soccer in Canada by having 20k+ out at every game and many more watching them on TV. You could argue that even one additional player helped to the MNT by MLS makes it worthwhile!

In my mind, this was accomplished last year with Attakora!

[Lord Bob]

I think the question has to be "is MLS better for Canada's national team than the alternative?"

Not even the most optimistic Canadian league proponent (me) thinks that Canada could create a national MLS-level league serving exclusively Canadian interests out of thin air. The alternative to having the Vancouver Whitecaps in MLS is having the Vancouver Whitecaps in the NASL. The alternative to having Toronto FC in MLS is having the Toronto Lynx in the NASL or USL PRO. The MLS teams make more money, play at a somewhat higher level, play more games, and both play and train in better facilities. They're more stable to fluctuations in popularity or competitiveness. They provide a reasonable home for talented Canadian players fallen on hard times (I'm thinking of Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield here) where they can play themselves back into national team contention. These are all positives.

MLS is better for Americans than it is for Canadians; that's obvious. But it's better for Canadians than what we had.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Another aspect of this is the business side of it. With respect to corporate sponsorship for the national teams, days like yesterday are a massive deal. With two teams in MLS and a third coming it will certainly help corporate canada to see the potential benefits of sponsoring the national teams.

[BuzzAndSting]

The MLS in Canada will make our national team better because of the simple fact that it will make a professional career in football more realistic for teenagers. Football is Canada's largest participation sport but many elite athletes give it up in their mid teens to pursue dreams in other sports. Having MLS teams and academies will go a long way to convince those kids to chose a career in football.

Alternatively you could argue that for our national team to make the World Cup we need more players playing in better quality leagues in Europe rather than the MLS. With a few exceptions it is easily said that the MLS players in our talent pool are on the lower end of the scale.

[johnyb]

I think the question has to be "is MLS better for Canada's national team than the alternative?"

Not even the most optimistic Canadian league proponent (me) thinks that Canada could create a national MLS-level league serving exclusively Canadian interests out of thin air. The alternative to having the Vancouver Whitecaps in MLS is having the Vancouver Whitecaps in the NASL. The alternative to having Toronto FC in MLS is having the Toronto Lynx in the NASL or USL PRO. The MLS teams make more money, play at a somewhat higher level, play more games, and both play and train in better facilities. They're more stable to fluctuations in popularity or competitiveness. They provide a reasonable home for talented Canadian players fallen on hard times (I'm thinking of Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield here) where they can play themselves back into national team contention. These are all positives.

MLS is better for Americans than it is for Canadians; that's obvious. But it's better for Canadians than what we had.

Great Point! I would also like to add that without Canadian Teams in the MLS we would not have had National Coverage on TSN for a Soccer match. I could not believe my eyes this morning(a morning after Hockey Night in Canada) when the opening and top story on Sportscenter was a Soccer Match between two Canadian teams. That exposure can only help the National team!

[Macksam]

No doubt the U17 got benefit from the Academies but if the developpment of these players stop there, then I think it's waste of time and effort (BTW, before anyone comes to conclusions from this comment, I'm not suggestiong that Canadians clubs should field 11 players from the Academies every game).

Who said it has to stop there. These academies are relatively new and the players will slowly come. You can't expect them to produce starters overnight.

For many years, lots of talented players could not develop after the age of 20 because there were no professional clubs in the country. I'd like to believe this situation is going to change in a near future, but if the Canadians clubs are going to field 2-3 Canadians per game...

Anyway, I appreciate the work TFC has done with its Academy players.

You think it's always going to be like that? The Toronto Blizzard didn't have a majority Canadian lineup until later in the team's existance.

[Cheeta]

if it only serves one interest then we wouldnt have any teams

For $35M USD we get Canadian based franchises in an American league with a domestic quota which reserves roster positiions for, in the absence of Canadians, nobody else but Americans.

MLS serves one interest. And they're happy to take money from Canadians to do it.