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FC Edmonton's first win


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so what your saying is FC Edmonton is the soccer version of the Edmonton Capitals Baseball club in the sense every year they may be in a different league:confused:

Back to my ignorance, for all the leagues you mentioned, would the roster/coaching staff stay the same a la the Capitals and all their league changes?

Thanks for the info, man:)

Yes unless they went to the PDL, then the team would have to be CIS and NCAA players. The PDL is like our Major Junior hockey program like the CHL, but soccer.

League changes in soccer sound more dramatic then it really is, as it is still a FIFA (CONCACAF) sanctioned entity. It would be like quitting BMO as a financial adviser to be a financial adviser at RBC. Same exact thing, with a different name.

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Depends on how much the front office wants to keep paying for an above average product in a lesser league.

The league seems to be what is in trouble, not the owners commitment. We're haven't even started this season, and people are already talking about it failing again. Really, they have a year to pull things on track down in the states, plus there will be a few extra teams joining next year to help balance things out.

Most of us in Edmonton's big problem is the advertising, which to date seems to consist of mail outs trying to get people to promote the team for free. The real test will be game one in Edmonton... See how many people are actually in the stands.

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Depends on how much the front office wants to keep paying for an above average product in a lesser league.

The league seems to be what is in trouble, not the owners commitment. We're haven't even started this season, and people are already talking about it failing again. Really, they have a year to pull things on track down in the states, plus there will be a few extra teams joining next year to help balance things out.

Most of us in Edmonton's big problem is the advertising, which to date seems to consist of mail outs trying to get people to promote the team for free. The real test will be game one in Edmonton... See how many people are actually in the stands.

You're overly optimistic, dude. Our front office is as shambolic as every other one in the league, the owner just refuses to see it because there are friendships involved and he's not involved in day-to-day ops, just updated regularly.

They just posted their schedule without including their biggest game of the year and according to a post on their forums, aren't selling single-game tickets in advance. You can't even buy their tickets online. It's a joke, albeit a well-meaning one.

He's a good guy with lots of money, so maybe they'll survive. But they're taking all the same missteps the rest of the NASL has, and that USL has in the past, so I doubt it. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, eh?

And Edmonton will never be in MLS. There's already a list of at least 10 cities in the U.S. courting a league that doesn't plant to grow beyond 20 teams, and as of next year, it's at 19.

MLS2, if there ever is one? Maybe. The market is here for top-level, but the right infrastructure, plan and league are all essential.

EDIT: Nice to see they're monitoring the fans, too, since that sked has now been up for three days without being corrected.

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And Edmonton will never be in MLS. There's already a list of at least 10 cities in the U.S. courting a league that doesn't plant to grow beyond 20 teams, and as of next year, it's at 19.

Within the last year Garber has talked about having as many as 24 teams so that 20 team bit is a false assertion:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/soc/7124564.html

Q: At what point did you feel comfortable saying that the MLS has arrived, and what does the league have to do to thrive? Arrive meaning they’re here to stay, not going anywhere and thrive meaning owners in every city and not multiple owners.

A: I think the new era of Major League Soccer started in 2005 with our expansion with Salt Lake and Los Angeles, continued in San Jose and then Toronto and then obviously thereafter. We began to really feel that we were managing a very stable and viable business when more and more investors started coming into the league. Since 2005, we’ve added 14 new owners. We’ve invested more than $1.2 billion in soccer stadiums since 2005. In 2007 we signed long-term television deals with ESPN, Fox and Univision that began paying us rights fees. In 2005 we signed a 10-year, $150 million deal with Adidas, and David Beckham joined the league in 2007. It was at that time that we really began to feel that this league is here to stay and our best years were ahead. Our goal is to be one of the top soccer leagues in the world. We believe we can achieve that goal. And I don’t believe American fans would accept anything less. To achieve that we need to have the best American players playing in Major League Soccer. We need to have some of the best international players in our game. We need to have 20 to 24 teams. All of our teams will be playing in stadiums they own and control and our league’s an important part of the U.S. sports landscape. I believe that’s an achievable goal.

I see no reason why over time (i.e. next couple of decades) MLS can't be expected to eventually grow to about 32 teams like the big four major league setups. Given Vancouver was recently reported to have the richest sponsorship backing of any team in the league:

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/vancouver-whitecaps-top-mls-sponsorship-playing-a-game-1454071

ahead even of the Galaxy despite David Beckham's presence it is not safe to assume that further Canadian expansion is not on the agenda. If the numbers work in terms of the key revenue streams flowing to league HQ from Canadian sources, there is a viable stadium deal in place and someone is willing to write the expansion fee cheque, I strongly suspect that a fourth Canadian team could happen with Edmonton and Ottawa being the obvious candidates. Don Garber provided strong support to Eugene Melnyk in an Ottawa context after all in the not too distant past going as far as saying it was almost inconceivable that they wouldn't get a team if the city council backed Melnyk's SSS proposal.

http://www.24thminute.com/2009/02/if-ottawa-builds-it.html

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Within the last year Garber has talked about having as many as 24 teams so that 20 team bit is a false assertion:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/soc/7124564.html

Q: At what point did you feel comfortable saying that the MLS has arrived, and what does the league have to do to thrive? Arrive meaning they’re here to stay, not going anywhere and thrive meaning owners in every city and not multiple owners.

A: I think the new era of Major League Soccer started in 2005 with our expansion with Salt Lake and Los Angeles, continued in San Jose and then Toronto and then obviously thereafter. We began to really feel that we were managing a very stable and viable business when more and more investors started coming into the league. Since 2005, we’ve added 14 new owners. We’ve invested more than $1.2 billion in soccer stadiums since 2005. In 2007 we signed long-term television deals with ESPN, Fox and Univision that began paying us rights fees. In 2005 we signed a 10-year, $150 million deal with Adidas, and David Beckham joined the league in 2007. It was at that time that we really began to feel that this league is here to stay and our best years were ahead. Our goal is to be one of the top soccer leagues in the world. We believe we can achieve that goal. And I don’t believe American fans would accept anything less. To achieve that we need to have the best American players playing in Major League Soccer. We need to have some of the best international players in our game. We need to have 20 to 24 teams. All of our teams will be playing in stadiums they own and control and our league’s an important part of the U.S. sports landscape. I believe that’s an achievable goal.

I see no reason why over time (i.e. next couple of decades) MLS can't be expected to eventually grow to about 32 teams like the big four major league setups. Given Vancouver was recently reported to have the richest sponsorship backing of any team in the league:

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/vancouver-whitecaps-top-mls-sponsorship-playing-a-game-1454071

ahead even of the Galaxy despite David Beckham's presence it is not safe to assume that further Canadian expansion is not on the agenda. If the numbers work in terms of the key revenue streams flowing to league HQ from Canadian sources, there is a viable stadium deal in place and someone is willing to write the expansion fee cheque, I strongly suspect that a fourth Canadian team could happen with Edmonton and Ottawa being the obvious candidates. Don Garber provided strong support to Eugene Melnyk in an Ottawa context after all in the not too distant past going as far as saying it was almost inconceivable that they wouldn't get a team if the city council backed Melnyk's SSS proposal.

http://www.24thminute.com/2009/02/if-ottawa-builds-it.html

Even if it were 24, Edmonton wouldn't queue jump 10 larger American cities.

Plus, Garber has said repeatedly they won't echo the other pro leagues in how much they expand, because it's harder to build football-style following on more than 20 or so teams.

A 32-team MLS seems highly unlikely -- in fact, no one from MLS is saying it. You're just proposing it based on other leagues in other sports which, as market success demonstrates, has nothing to do with whether soccer is successful.

The league would probably start its own second division before it took that step, given that it has talked about maintaining some respect for soccer tradition, and there isn't a league with that many teams pretty much anywhere else on Earth.

Again, even if he did, why would you expect a market like Edmonton, with no local rivalry, no U.S. interest, no U.S. network interest and long travel times to be brought into a league that still has interest in many larger cities?

You're always talking about a Canadian league as pipedream, but base it just on the upfront funding. I'd say Edmonton in MLS is a pipedream based on many, many factors and a 32-team MLS isn't likely, either.

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Even if it were 24, Edmonton wouldn't queue jump 10 larger American cities.

Strange then that back in 2009 Ottawa were only a city council vote away from doing so if 20 really were some sort of upper limit. No point going through all of jloome's points one by one because that by itself demonstrates that Canadian cities with around 1.5 million people in the wider metropolitan area are potentially on the radar where MLS expansion is concerned and the reason for that has been that Canadian cities have demonstrated an ability to outperform American ones of similar size in revenue terms.

Don't have time to hunt down the link right now but Lamar Hunt talked to the media shortly before he died about MLS eventually expanding to around 32 teams because the geography of North America is so different from European countries. He was one of the two key investors along with Phil Anshutz who funded MLS in the early years after most of the original investors bailed out and probably played a key role in persuading Don Garber to move over to soccer from the NFL given he was also the owner of the KC Chiefs.

The NFL is the model MLS are trying to pursue not the Premiership and building a continental scale broadcast footprint is what will eventually drive expansion well past 20 franchises. Through all the history of MLS there really has been no obvious indication that a well-funded expansion group that is willing to write the expansion fee cheque for a team to be based in a metropolitan area of well over 1 million people that has a viable stadium deal in place will ever be turned away.

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Strange then that back in 2009 Ottawa were only a city council vote away from doing so .

The larger league argument I could buy. Money often does talk.

But again, there's no reason to believe they'd consider the 57th largest catchment market in North America over any number of others first. It's just not particularly logical. We have a short season, enormous travel distances and absolutely zero cachet for Americans. We have a decent urban pop, but no outside draw, compared to U.S. major metro centres with catchments regularly between 2-5 million people.

And Ottawa's right between two existing MLS franchises, so it has multiple other reasons to be viable over EDmonton.

Again, Blizzard, I'm not sure why you get off on these exhibitions of squabbling with every post I make . You're not presenting a plausible scenario, beyond the argument of a potentially larger league, you're just opposing whatever I say.

It's just a more polite form of trolling and should be beneath you.

The 32 team thing is interesting, though, as I can see them looking at the geography as a substantial difference.

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But again, there's no reason to believe they'd consider the 57th largest catchment market in North America over any number of others first.....

I guess jloome is going to spin things however he wants but it isn't trolling or squabbling to point out that a league that was highly interested in Ottawa as recently as two years ago is unlikely to suddenly turn their noses up in disgust at the prospect of Edmonton joining. As long as there is reason to believe that an additional Canadian team would help to produce very good revenue streams for the league in corporate sponsorship and broadcasting terms good things can happen in that regard. Unfortunately getting past 4 or 5 in numbers terms is the issue that makes a D1 level national league problematic in a Canadian context. With a few more large metropolitan areas there would be no need to hook up with the Americans on this.

Beyond that there is nothing obvious to suggest that a league that has in the past negotiated seriously with an expansion bid by a group based in Trenton, NJ and accepted Real Salt Lake as team #12 (no need for pedantry about the Miami Fusion) has been operating anything other than a first come first served policy in terms of the order in which cities that meet a minimum set of requirements get added. Getting all the ducks lined up in a row to put together a successful expansion bid in an MLS context is highly challenging so at any given moment in time there are only a very limited number of viable bids. You have to strike the iron while it is hot under those sorts of circumstances basically. Over and out on this topic in this thread unless some new point is made.

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You're overly optimistic, dude. Our front office is as shambolic as every other one in the league, the owner just refuses to see it because there are friendships involved and he's not involved in day-to-day ops, just updated regularly.

They just posted their schedule without including their biggest game of the year and according to a post on their forums, aren't selling single-game tickets in advance. You can't even buy their tickets online. It's a joke, albeit a well-meaning one.

He's a good guy with lots of money, so maybe they'll survive. But they're taking all the same missteps the rest of the NASL has, and that USL has in the past, so I doubt. it. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, eh?

Ya maybe I'm overly optomistic, but honestly man, I'm excited about having competative pro soccer in town again. I'm going to enjoy this season and do what I can to help this team survive. There's a lot of pessismism on these boards sometimes unless your team is in or about to enter the MLS, and I'm a little tired of it! This thread is an awesome example.. It went from being a really positive "FCE made a good/lucky call by not having games overlap with the biggest summer draw in Edmonton" to "NASL sucks, is poorly organized and will never survive". Completely unrelated, and polar opposites in terms of positive vs negative.

My hope is that the Fath bros stick it out, support the team and somehow are shown that they should take this as another serious investment (which I think it has the ability to become). Its still a team in its infancy, and will grow and adjust as time goes on. All us fans can do is sit, wait, and bother the front office to switch things up a bit.

Am I frustrated? Hell ya. But how am I going to attract new fans to either the FCE or Canadian soccer by inviting them to this forum, then dumping on the organization of both? People will just stay away. Canadian soccer at all levels needs some optomisim.

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Ya maybe I'm overly optomistic, but honestly man, I'm excited about having competative pro soccer in town again. I'm going to enjoy this season and do what I can to help this team survive. There's a lot of pessismism on these boards sometimes unless your team is in or about to enter the MLS, and I'm a little tired of it! This thread is an awesome example.. It went from being a really positive "FCE made a good/lucky call by not having games overlap with the biggest summer draw in Edmonton" to "NASL sucks, is poorly organized and will never survive". Completely unrelated, and polar opposites in terms of positive vs negative.

My hope is that the Fath bros stick it out, support the team and somehow are shown that they should take this as another serious investment (which I think it has the ability to become). Its still a team in its infancy, and will grow and adjust as time goes on. All us fans can do is sit, wait, and bother the front office to switch things up a bit.

Am I frustrated? Hell ya. But how am I going to attract new fans to either the FCE or Canadian soccer by inviting them to this forum, then dumping on the organization of both? People will just stay away. Canadian soccer at all levels needs some optomisim.

Totally understandable. But some of us have already been through this with the Drillers and Aviators. IF you've seen someone drive a brand-new car over a cliff twice, the third time -- particularly when they're hitting the gas in all the same spots -- it is foolish to sit there and cheer as they do it again.

Beyond which, each time they screw it up, they make it a little harder to get serious people involved.

I have lot of optimism for the POTENTIAL of Canadian soccer. But the game is a culture, not just a game, and if owners don't respect that culture and give fans what they want it'll just fail again.

Sometimes pessimism is realism.

I would like to see Tom succeed at soccer. I think he's a good community guy and he understand what it can become over time. But I dont' think they have one wit of the level of professionalism to survive.

In that circumstance, is it better to complain about the crap and perhaps get enough social groundswell to let the club know they're heading for the cliff, or to sit back and hope they jam on the brakes and turn things around?

I think you can make money on soccer in Canada. There was a story discussed a few months back on the RPB board about the fact that 70% of the small clubs (those below premier level) now make money or break even in Europe. So it's not always about the size of the market.

Having said that, unless you create an environment that appeals to hardcore fans, the ones who currently only follow teams overseas and maybe -- MAYBE -- in MLS, it just won't survive.

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Totally understandable. But some of us have already been through this with the Drillers and Aviators. IF you've seen someone drive a brand-new car over a cliff twice, the third time -- particularly when they're hitting the gas in all the same spots -- it is foolish to sit there and cheer as they do it again.

Beyond which, each time they screw it up, they make it a little harder to get serious people involved.

I have lot of optimism for the POTENTIAL of Canadian soccer. But the game is a culture, not just a game, and if owners don't respect that culture and give fans what they want it'll just fail again.

Sometimes pessimism is realism.

I would like to see Tom succeed at soccer. I think he's a good community guy and he understand what it can become over time. But I dont' think they have one wit of the level of professionalism to survive.

In that circumstance, is it better to complain about the crap and perhaps get enough social groundswell to let the club know they're heading for the cliff, or to sit back and hope they jam on the brakes and turn things around?

I think you can make money on soccer in Canada. There was a story discussed a few months back on the RPB board about the fact that 70% of the small clubs (those below premier level) now make money or break even in Europe. So it's not always about the size of the market.

Having said that, unless you create an environment that appeals to hardcore fans, the ones who currently only follow teams overseas and maybe -- MAYBE -- in MLS, it just won't survive.

Fair. I just feel that there's a lot of surface negativity here sometimes, particularly in the nasl thread where the team doesn't really have the experience to give the same atmosphere as Vancouver did or Montreal does.

I'm also a little bitter about the lack of soccer going on right now anyways, which is contributing to my mood... We're so close to kickoff, but so far away.

Today its been really slow, and I started wondering why we're so hung up on creating a European culture over here for soccer. Would Canadians be so upset if European teams started to bring a soccer atmosphere into a hockey game? Why aren't we able to let the atmosphere be what it is in Canada and worry about the teams rather than the fans?

You can tell, I'm tired, I'm becoming overly introspective.

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It's too bad Western Canada couldn't come up with it's own PDL division

Why is everybody so high on the USL's youth league? NASL is professional, it's a better option to market and watch than PDL.

Getting back a bit, a 32 team MLS seems like a plausible idea, so long as they split it into two leagues and include a fair number of Canadian teams

(maybe 8, if possible? I know FIFA wouldn't really appreciate a top flight league of over 24 teams from one country)

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Fair. I just feel that there's a lot of surface negativity here sometimes, particularly in the nasl thread where the team doesn't really have the experience to give the same atmosphere as Vancouver did or Montreal does.

I'm also a little bitter about the lack of soccer going on right now anyways, which is contributing to my mood... We're so close to kickoff, but so far away.

Today its been really slow, and I started wondering why we're so hung up on creating a European culture over here for soccer. Would Canadians be so upset if European teams started to bring a soccer atmosphere into a hockey game? Why aren't we able to let the atmosphere be what it is in Canada and worry about the teams rather than the fans?

You can tell, I'm tired, I'm becoming overly introspective.

No no, all good points.

The eurocentric thing is often misread. I think most people who allude to that culture and environment do so because they look at the existing fan base in Canada and realize that most of it is based in support for European teams and history.

With that being the case, the supposition is that the bulk of the potential market lies in appealing to those people.....and on a selfish basis, most of us doing the supposing are from that background. It's what we WANT. I want an Anfield-like environment in Edmonton. I want a derby between Edmonton and Calgary (and maybe, in cup play, FC Red Deer) to be the same boisterous amazing time it is over there.

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Why is everybody so high on the USL's youth league? NASL is professional, it's a better option to market and watch than PDL.

Getting back a bit, a 32 team MLS seems like a plausible idea, so long as they split it into two leagues and include a fair number of Canadian teams

(maybe 8, if possible? I know FIFA wouldn't really appreciate a top flight league of over 24 teams from one country)

I think there's something to be said for exploring the business model of trying to produce players and sell for a profit, rather than big advertising and trying to fill the stands. The later option hasn't worked at the D2 level, ever (although many would argue it's never been properly attempted) I look at what teams like Forest City London and the Ottawa Fury are doing and I think they're on the right track. I just don't think D2 will ever work, because the business model just doesn't work. Let's try a different business model.

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(although many would argue it's never been properly attempted)

Key. I've been given some insight into how these teams budget and at what level and I just believe it's so low relative to the market expectation and possibility, and so poorly spent in most cases, that it's hard to get a real picture of the potential.

Obviously, if we're as optimistic as possible and look at old NASL numbers, anything from 5,000 to 9,000 a game shouldn't be out of reach for most large urban centres. And at that level of support, particularly if you have some infrastructure rights and profits associate with a home ground, team budgets running midway between what NASL teams are upper-ending now and MLS budgets would be quite possible, i.e. in the $1.5 to $2 million range, instead of the $500,000 to $1-million range.

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I'm going to enjoy this season and do what I can to help this team survive.

Has to be a good sign that the team is still around after some of the less than stellar turnouts for high profile exhibition games that disappointed ownership last summer. A 2000 announced attendance was par for the course for the Lynx and Impact a decade ago and look where pro soccer is now in Toronto and Montreal. Just getting the show on the road in a more or less sustainable way with a budget operation geared towards that sort of crowd will be a considerable achievement. The time to start thinking any bigger than that will be when/if an SSS is built.

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No no, all good points.

The eurocentric thing is often misread. I think most people who allude to that culture and environment do so because they look at the existing fan base in Canada and realize that most of it is based in support for European teams and history.

With that being the case, the supposition is that the bulk of the potential market lies in appealing to those people.....and on a selfish basis, most of us doing the supposing are from that background. It's what we WANT. I want an Anfield-like environment in Edmonton. I want a derby between Edmonton and Calgary (and maybe, in cup play, FC Red Deer) to be the same boisterous amazing time it is over there.

Thanks, it was posted in the middle of a 19 hour work day, and at the end of it, I wasn't entirely sure what was said!

I'm the first one to admit, I'm looking forward to the traditional football atmosphere here in Edmonton. I went to Germany last fall just after FCE had ended their "season", and loved it. Yesterday I was just re-examining the culture in Canada and questioning why we feel the need to conform to anothers traditions. I think this starts even with the team names... Toronto FC, FC Edmonton, Real Salt Lake all have very obvious roots in European culture, and I'm guessing that if you talked to the average Joe on the street, they wouldn't be able to tell you what the history of the "United" in Man U meant.

The organization appeals to me too. Saddly I don't think any of that will be possible until there is a long term properly run pro team in Canada, regardless of the level.

Since there's a bit of talk about the professionalism of the team, I was thinking about it today again. I agree, there are some very obvious things that the FO should be doing to promote (not just in terms of advertising) the club. I think that some communciation about who the team is looking at and signing is vital. There is such a void of information coming from the team other than who is leaving, and how they're now doing, its becoming rediculous. I'm willing to overlook some of the other faults, but surely even if the team is run strictly by friends of the owner, there must be a soccer fan there, who knows how much fans want to know about their team.

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Yesterday I was just re-examining the culture in Canada and questioning why we feel the need to conform to anothers traditions. I think this starts even with the team names...

What's wrong with being influenced by other supporting cultures, and evolving our own with aspects that we like?

Do you honestly prefer the quiet and passive Canadian crowd that only cheers during a goal or when a mascot or jumbo-tron tells them to "make some noise"?

Don't forget that singing in England was fairly minimal until that first televised South American World Cup. The English (a fairly reserved type... sound familiar?) saw it, liked it, and embraced it. And now they're world leaders at it.

As for team names... look at all of the rugby clubs in England. They're named (city)(nickname), with the nickname usually being some sort of strong/aggressive animal, and the name is often an alliteration. Sound familiar? They nicked that from the colonies.

If England can be that fluid in evolving their supporting culture and adopting team-naming styles of other cultures, why should Canadian supporting culture exist in a passive vacuum?

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Nothing wrong with it. Just pondering the pressure. I think we should be fluid. I just think that we're trying to immediatly adapt traditions that don't always apply when the English took elements and made it their own. We're trying to take the traditions verbatim. Singing, chants, banner etc I love. But instead of letting it happen organically, there seems like there's a lot of pressure to have it NOW.

Granted I'm saying this as a newbie, and from Edmonton. We don't have the history that Montreal or Vancouver has.

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Nothing wrong with it. Just pondering the pressure. I think we should be fluid. I just think that we're trying to immediatly adapt traditions that don't always apply when the English took elements and made it their own. We're trying to take the traditions verbatim. Singing, chants, banner etc I love. But instead of letting it happen organically, there seems like there's a lot of pressure to have it NOW.

Granted I'm saying this as a newbie, and from Edmonton. We don't have the history that Montreal or Vancouver has.

I think the pressure on having "singing, chants, banners" is to attract casual (or in my case less than casual) fans to the game. ATMOSPHERE, something every other outdoor soccer team has COMPLETELY lacked in Edmonton.

Personally I hope the club goes as far as creating handouts of "prompts & cues" for the fans. This may annoy "real" soccer fans but by know I think they all understand, without bums in the seats this project is DOA.

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I think the pressure on having "singing, chants, banners" is to attract casual (or in my case less than casual) fans to the game. ATMOSPHERE, something every other outdoor soccer team has COMPLETELY lacked in Edmonton.

Personally I hope the club goes as far as creating handouts of "prompts & cues" for the fans. This may annoy "real" soccer fans but by know I think they all understand, without bums in the seats this project is DOA.

Le sigh.. The eternal debate... The snob in me says that I don't want to have the handouts and have the forced (or at least what I have been lead to believe is a forced) fan response in Seattle or have more of an organic, fanatically driven atmosphere in Toronto (yes I did just compliment Toronto... What's the world coming to). I think that what the club has been doing to work hand in hand with the ESG has been great. They've been supportive and not discouraged us at all, which is good; shows they're not trying to sell "family entertainment" (at least not 100%). I think that the handouts and atmosphere should fall to the ESG, but it will be a slower process.. There's only so much 20-30 people can do.. Hopefully we'll see some expotential growth in the group to help out with that as well though.

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