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New D3 league in Ontario/Quebec!


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Sorry Juby, but you don't understand value. Dragging around that can of snake oil isn't working for you.

If it makes you feel better, the CSL is worthless. I was just trying to be nice by saying you misjudged the value.

You should get together with the rest of the teams and pool your home games like you did with York Region. Buy a ticket to the Astros and get in to a York Region, Toronto Croatia, Serbian White Eagles, Portugal FC game. You might draw a couple of new fans.

hahahaha, once you run into a brick wall on the business side and you just pretend I'm deceiving you? You clearly don't understand modern business, maybe I can explain it even simpler: Napster, was bought and sold after it was shut down, why? Even though it wasn't doing anything and was worthless from a stuff point of view, it had name recognition. And I'm not apart of the CSL, I'm just a fan of canadian soccer...I just don't think it's a good idea to pretend the few guys we have willing to invest in canadian soccer are terrible.

edit: I'm argueing with one guy talking about a league he's never watched and another guy who's living in a business lala land.

Edited by Juby
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They are if they are hindering the league from growing...

that's actually a fair point, it's not really worth argueing but from my perspective their regional position wouldn't give them the position to interfere with a national league and if they were making things impossible in their own region, I don't think this new league would be starting behind them salary wise.

Napster gives you hope...now when your teams fold you can still sell them and recoup all that money :D

How can I argue with your business sense?

ahahahah, I was trying to dumb it down to an example you'd understand... The points on stock prices fluctuating are the most apt, I just figured I'd try and make it easy for you to understand value in the modern business sense isn't really just physical 'stuff'.

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Equity Ownership does make sense. Having teams pay a fifth of what the equity owners do and giving them equal control would be a really stupid idea. My beef isn't with the equity ownership, it's with the equity owners. At every turn the equity owners have sought to avoid expansion out west. This new league, from the description, will not have equity owners to begin with. You'll either pay what the others do and become a member club, or you won't. That's financial fairness to clubs I can get behind.

As an aside: In a club context, there are only so many times I can hear someone say "We're going to return London City to it's former glory" and find they never had any to begin with.

The CSL has a tranished reputation. Everyone I know who follows soccer will immediately chuckle when I mention the CSL. It is a joke. If I tell the same people about a new league, they're interested, because while a brand new league doesn't have any brand power, it also doesn't have any brand baggage. I can tell you right now, in London, if you were to say it's Forest City London or AEK London starting a senior men's professional team, you'd achieve ticket sales on good faith. I know for sure that London City will never get that.

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...Everyone I know who follows soccer will immediately chuckle when I mention the CSL. It is a joke...

There was a time when City got a bit of a pass from a lot of people on a "well at least somebody is trying to do it" sort of basis but in the post-TFC entry into MLS environment that sort of thinking just doesn't cut it any more. People can see that credible pro soccer can actually work in North America and aspire to much more than they used to even at a regional D3 sort of level. Time for a new structure that enables ambitious clubs like Hamilton Croatia and Milltown FC to be all they can be rather than having an entrenched old guard, who are holdovers from another era, holding them back.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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edit: this post was replying to redcoatsforever

this isn' horribly arguementative, but I disagree that it's got a tarnished reputation (not a 'your wrong', but i personally disagree). People who have seen some games in the past couple years probably think it's a decent game, alot of people who are barely aware of it might assume it's amateur or terrible cause it's not terribly well known, I think these are the chuckers, people who assume it's so far off d-2 it can't be worth their time.

With this new league, I think a rebranding would work if it's a step up, but to put out another brand name out there, thats probably gonna start a little behind the csl isn't going to achieve the results your hoping for in my opinion. If all together, they upped their salary minimum like 25% and rebranded across the board it might get the results your thinking of but to have two brands just fighting for scraps seems like a bad idea (like I said earlier though, if they pick their markets right they might be able to tough it out and catch up).

As for London City, this is pure speculation but I honestly feel like if they actually were winning for a couple of seasons (and their already pretty fun to watch) they might get somewhere.

and to bbtb, using terms like 'old guard' is just an exxageration that is an inaccurate description of the csl owners.

sorry, one last late edit to redcoatsforever, I always assumed western expansion was going to require a tremendous amount of initiative from out west even if it was being done with the csl brand.

Edited by Juby
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Hello All

I hope you can appreciate that I am not able to say much and I won't be responding to direct questions at this time, especially not in this thread. Feel free to PM me if you wish.

I will say that the reason for our departure from the CSL stems from an inability to reach agreement on the necessary terms and conditions we needed to be able to confidently commit to a return to the league for 2011 and beyond. It was a very difficult decision to make but we believe that this is the best decision at this time for our club.

I would prefer to not address the proposed new non-amateur league at this time other than to say that we are exploring all options for our organization.

I am sure I speak for L.T. and our head coach, Rafael Carbajal, when I say that we sincerely appreciate the support we received this year. Rest assured, we are not going away.

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Guest GoGreen

This has been the main problem for development of Canadian professional soccer:

Business versus development (ownership/equity issues versus the league moving forward and helping develop and/or establish a credible division 3 pro league)

Although all the details are not out yet and certainly will not for awhile its clear that the focus is not on the development of Canadian soccer which is sad.

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hahahaha, once you run into a brick wall on the business side and you just pretend I'm deceiving you? You clearly don't understand modern business, maybe I can explain it even simpler: Napster, was bought and sold after it was shut down, why? Even though it wasn't doing anything and was worthless from a stuff point of view, it had name recognition. And I'm not apart of the CSL, I'm just a fan of canadian soccer...I just don't think it's a good idea to pretend the few guys we have willing to invest in canadian soccer are terrible.

edit: I'm argueing with one guy talking about a league he's never watched and another guy who's living in a business lala land.

If I am the guy who's never watched a league game you are referring to...I have watched some league games if you re-read my post. Although its hard to pick out, I did watch CSL games on the regional network before...and I can certainly understand how close it is to the NS league.

If it makes you feel any better, a 3rd string Shamrock Rovers side from the League of Ireland would trash the top CSL team by more than 6 goals on their turf.

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I became a fan of the CSL last year, when I became a Milltown season ticket holder. I have to work shifts, and that meant that I had to miss a few games, but I managed to make it to a number of away games, too.

I'm really hoping that I'll have some games to watch this year, though.

VPjr says this is the right thing to do, and that is good enough for me.

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If I am the guy who's never watched a league game you are referring to...I have watched some league games if you re-read my post. Although its hard to pick out, I did watch CSL games on the regional network before...and I can certainly understand how close it is to the NS league.

If it makes you feel any better, a 3rd string Shamrock Rovers side from the League of Ireland would trash the top CSL team by more than 6 goals on their turf.

well your right about what you said (and it being a little tricky) but honestly (and sorry if you've seen a game recently but you said 'before...'): last couple games you saw? Each year the last few years has made strong improvements and there's a reason some of these guys are getting noticed.

I don't mean this at all rudely but if you haven't seen a game this year, download a couple (one could be a stinker in any league) and see if your claims are correct (I really don't think they are at all). The 2010 match thread should just be a couple pages back.

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I think it's a step forward. In on season Milltown and Hammer Cro did what the rest of the league's clubs have been working on for over a decade. They have serious soccer people running the clubs, who want a real club system, and are discussing a league with a promotion and relegation system.

The CSL are talking about...getting Locust gameballs, and a few clubs are starting reserve teams...oh, and two of their clubs just left, with the possibility of more to follow.

The CSL equity owners are part of the old guard, status quo group in Canada, they don't want anything to change because it threatens their grip on soccer in this country. It doesn't matter to them that under their leadership, soccer in Canada has been a rather sordid affair, not really worth vying for control of. The new guys want to make Canadian soccer something to be proud of, and I say that based on last seasons results they deserve a shot, at least at the D3 level since we have to wait for real CSA reform now.

Damned right! Lose the boat anchors and let the progressives move forward without the dead weight status quo types.

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I'm not sure what you think they own? If the CSL dissolves tomorrow, do the teams get any of their "equity"? The only thing that equity represents was a once upon a time dream that this league would generate some serious revenues. It has no value today.

Toronto Croatia drawing 50 fans and York Region Shooters not even being able to afford new uniforms (still had Italia written on last year) isn't worth a thing.

I remember the fun days when Toronto Croatia drew thousands. Times sure have changed.

What is needed now is not a re-branding as Juby discusses, it is a total tearing down of the structure and rebuilding a new league from the foundation up.

You're right Hip. The CSL really is a monetarily valueless entity despite the insistence of the equity members.

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There was a time when City got a bit of a pass from a lot of people on a "well at least somebody is trying to do it" sort of basis but in the post-TFC entry into MLS environment that sort of thinking just doesn't cut it any more. People can see that credible pro soccer can actually work in North America and aspire to much more than they used to even at a regional D3 sort of level. Time for a new structure that enables ambitious clubs like Hamilton Croatia and Milltown FC to be all they can be rather than having an entrenched old guard, who are holdovers from another era, holding them back.

Yes, very true. Poor old London City. As an individual, I truly liked Harry Gauss. I got along well with him and admired his enthusiasm and I'm very sorry and sad that he's gone but as you say, the CSL ... or its replacement ... has to be allowed to move forward and not be held back by the Bruno's and Tony's.

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I became a fan of the CSL last year, when I became a Milltown season ticket holder. I have to work shifts, and that meant that I had to miss a few games, but I managed to make it to a number of away games, too.

Sounds like you became a fan of Milltown not a fan of the CSL. And that's what Juby overestimates: the CSL does not have the brand equity or physical and organizational infrastructure to be worth a $150-200K franchise fee. The problem is that there's an older group of equity investors who, often through good intention, have sunk a lot of money into their league and clubs under that model who are ALSO unwilling to recognize that their brand is not worth that money. That's what's stopped affiliation with the PCSL and expansion out west in the past and will continue to hold up growth of the D3 level until such time as those owners give up that belief and/or a different parallel league emerges.

Regardless, good luck Dino. I hope you can find a few more clubs witht he necessary money that share your vision. I'd love to see you succeed and if you'd schedule home games at times other than when my over-30 team plays I'd be able to give you my small bit of financial support!

Also, you're a smart guy but one suggestion: instead of an equity ownership model league teams should have to post a membership fee and significant BOND to prove that they can cover their expenses EACH season. It'll be tough on cash flow I understand but that'll make sure that you only have serious individuals and organizations who can support the financial burdens of D3 soccer and the league will have a nest egg that they can use to assume the operations of a team should that team run short of it's own cash.

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Sounds like you became a fan of Milltown not a fan of the CSL. And that's what Juby overestimates: the CSL does not have the brand equity or physical and organizational infrastructure to be worth a $150-200K franchise fee. The problem is that there's an older group of equity investors who, often through good intention, have sunk a lot of money into their league and clubs under that model who are ALSO unwilling to recognize that their brand is not worth that money. That's what's stopped affiliation with the PCSL and expansion out west in the past and will continue to hold up growth of the D3 level until such time as those owners give up that belief and/or a different parallel league emerges.

Regardless, good luck Dino. I hope you can find a few more clubs witht he necessary money that share your vision. I'd love to see you succeed and if you'd schedule home games at times other than when my over-30 team plays I'd be able to give you my small bit of financial support!

Also, you're a smart guy but one suggestion: instead of an equity ownership model league teams should have to post a membership fee and significant BOND to prove that they can cover their expenses EACH season. It'll be tough on cash flow I understand but that'll make sure that you only have serious individuals and organizations who can support the financial burdens of D3 soccer and the league will have a nest egg that they can use to assume the operations of a team should that team run short of it's own cash.

When did I say the clubs didn't have their own pull? When I said 'someone would rather see the North York Astros then the North York ????', clearly your just assuming my arguements (if your gonna quote, how about you read what I've said). I don't even know if I'll follow up on this because to be completely frank, alot of you are living in financial lala land.

One guy says 'too bad the focus isn't on development as much as business', well if low level canadian soccer were stable...then maybe they could, but without financial security, their will be no development...

Then another guy (dbailey) goes off and takes a dump on the guys who have actually been putting their money up (thanks for actually investing in canadian soccer for a decade, now piss off). Then that person says I was the one who wanted to rebrand (if you've read my points, I'm generally against it...but why doesn't everyone pretend I said different), I said it might work on a bigger scale but generally it's a bad idea.

As for the tearing it all down? Come on, why would these guys want to take a huge risk on a complete new league structure when they just found a bit of stability (maybe if they were joining a bigger league)? Because you guys think it's a good idea? (forgetting that it's them, not you guys who actually have something to gain or lose in this). Sorry you guys don't have a low 6 figures to spend on canadian soccer, until you do, you can't really act like you have any say in the matter (it's the csl not the csa, why don't we just go to walmart and tell them their too profitable for our liking while were at it). The csl is not yours to tear down, it's not a canadian soccer fans play thing to mould, it's a few people actually spending money and some people actually getting paid. If you think you can do better, then get the money yourself instead of telling them how they should run their business. Their not going to join with anyone until they at least show the initiative to match them (anything else would be stupid, like to put their clubs into someone elses less experienced hands to create a league).

here's something funny, the csl literally just sold one of their non equity franchises for 25 000$, that means the non-equity franchise alone is worth at least $25 000 (supply and demand), which means equity membership must be at least worth more. However it sounds much more damning and dramatic to pretend it's worthless (pretty much cause it's suits your arguements). Why don't I go around saying Stephen Harper is EVIL, I can't stand him but exxagerating would just be childish.

And seriously, calling out league owners by name? I mean sorry their not rich enough for you but show some respect, all they've done is actually keep their clubs running in a semi pro league. I mean what exactly has the csl done that is so harmful to development? Kept a 3rd york region team out (apparently that makes them competitive miziers)? This business with a couple teams not getting back in (which we don't have details on yet)? Or maybe your pretending their capable of kiboshing this new league (that'd be your imaginations)? Or you think theirs a bunch of richer people that can't get in on the league (which makes no sense cause their letting people participate cheap, and the new league is starting out behind them....)?

Realistically you could have said, 'I support this new league', but no, you guys act like you have to take the csl down, if you want to beat them, compete, don't talk abunch of crazy **** about how some of the only guys actually doing something are some kinda disease (it sounds like a teenager complaining 'my life is OVER'). It's just a silly tactic backed up by juvenile business rational. On top of that, I was misquoted twice in these few posts. If your not bothering to read my posts, don't fill in my opinions for me....(I can't believe I even had to say that).

It's just bizarre, I didn't take a **** on this new league (in my honest opinion, it's more teams) but look at all the people who can't have an arguement with out talking **** and throwing **** all over the place, try building instead of a 'scorched earth' campaign by trying to smear peoples reps (I mean your really bitter at the csl for what they've done?) I could understand saying 'thanks' and moving on but you guys literally had a temper tantrum the moment you got an option, just completely ungrateful and childish.

Edited by Juby
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Okay, so you've proven you're crazy... what next?

why don't you prove it by pointing out where I'm wrong instead of calling me crazy. Once again why don't I say just 'Stephen Harper is evil' to make a splash instead of actual debating points.

edit: hahaha, looking at sr's post below. What exactly was crazy there? It sure is easier to argue someone when you resort to unbacked snot comments. But hey, that's what half this thread has been towards the csl owners, you guys are trying to turn them into a shadowy board of bad guys so you can belittle their work and smear them without debating the properly. Why make a good arguement when throwing **** works better eh. Your clearly masterdebaters ahaha

Edited by Juby
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why don't you prove it by pointing out where I'm wrong instead of calling me crazy. Once again why don't I say just 'Stephen Harper is evil' to make a splash instead of actual debating points

Because arguing with someone prone to strawmen, non sequiturs, and needless ad hominems is a waste of time.

And Stephen Harper is evil.

(Believe it or not but the overwhelming majority of people who you insist on arguing with actually want to see the CSL succeed. Many of us have just come to the conclusion that it has fundamental structural issues which will prevent that and, for the record, have prevented that over and over and over and over again in the past. I bear the CSL and the equity owners who have sunk their money into the league no ill will. If the model they've clung to through their history ends up working out that's all the better for Canadian soccer. But as someone who has at least marginally followed the league for close to a decade they've pretty much lost any confidence they once enjoyed with me and a lot of other people. Just like when MLSE stepped into the T.O. market to usurp top division soccer from the well intentioned if ill equipped Hartrells you're seeing that there are a lot of people who are ready to move on from a structure that was barely surviving and certainly not thriving.

But yeah, we're all whiny teenagers so you can just type out some response to whatever you imagine I mean by the above.)

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Because arguing with someone prone to strawmen, non sequiturs, and needless ad hominems is a waste of time.

And Stephen Harper is evil.

(Believe it or not but the overwhelming majority of people who you insist on arguing with actually want to see the CSL succeed. Many of us have just come to the conclusion that it has fundamental structural issues which will prevent that and, for the record, have prevented that over and over and over and over again in the past. I bear the CSL and the equity owners who have sunk their money into the league no ill will. If the model they've clung to through their history ends up working out that's all the better for Canadian soccer. But as someone who has at least marginally followed the league for close to a decade they've pretty much lost any confidence they once enjoyed with me and a lot of other people. Just like when MLSE stepped into the T.O. market to usurp top division soccer from the well intentioned if ill equipped Hartrells you're seeing that there are a lot of people who are ready to move on from a structure that was barely surviving and certainly not thriving.

But yeah, we're all whiny teenagers so you can just type out some response to whatever you imagine I mean by the above.)

You were the one with the ad hominems, you called me crazy and didn't back it up but it's not worth argueing because I'll call you names? I don't like Stephen Harper either but I'll stick to debating points instead of being over dramatic.

Here's the plain and simple of it, if theirs no ill will, then why all the snottiness in this thread? If it has structural problems, it will take time to fix, making a huge exxagerated deal about it because things aren't going quickly enough is pretty much counter productive (by being as negative as possible when dealing with the csl). Instead of people saying 'I don't think it's worth 150 000$', they say 'it's worthless'... that's wanting it to succede and not childish apparently. Someone calling out two team owners by name to be insulting after the work they've done? not childish? ohhh, and miscorrectly stating my opinions? not childish?

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Guest GoGreen
You were the one with the ad hominems, you called me crazy and didn't back it up but it's not worth argueing because I'll call you names? I don't like Stephen Harper either but I'll stick to debating points instead of being over dramatic.

Here's the plain and simple of it, if theirs no ill will, then why all the snottiness in this thread? If it has structural problems, it will take time to fix, making a huge exxagerated deal about it because things aren't going quickly enough is pretty much counter productive (by being as negative as possible when dealing with the csl). Instead of people saying 'I don't think it's worth 150 000$', they say 'it's worthless'... that's wanting it to succede and not childish apparently. Someone calling out two team owners by name to be insulting after the work they've done? not childish? ohhh, and miscorrectly stating my opinions? not childish?

Again all of the details about these 2 organizations not returning to the CSL have not come out.

I was the one who made the point about the CSL not being about development and about business from my perspective. You then go on to talk purely about business in that long post of yours. So what is it? Development of Canadian Soccer or business for the "equity owners"?

This being a Canadian soccer supporters site the business side of the CSL's structure would be of less concern than the development side of things to people here.

So I am not sure why you are suprised at the response you have gotten so far.

Many here see the necessity for the gap in the Canadian Soccer pyramid to be filled with a nationwide or regional setup of a Division 2/3 league to help or improve the development of Canadian Soccer. Many on here think that the CSL could potentially be the basis for doing so but obviously a major obstacle is the lack of CSA governance and involvement in the CSL and arguably the "equity ownership" of certain clubs. So don't take it as "bashing" the CSL, its about Canadian Soccer growing.

Eventually for this to happen it has to either be about development or business. From the sounds of your posts you are more concerned about the business side. Am I right?

When 2 organizations decide to call it quits, questions will be asked about the structure and how the Canadian Soccer League is run. Again still awaiting details on the issues.

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