jonovision Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Good news story about MSA doing away with recording results and league tables for players under 12. Also mentions a reduction of pitch size and players on the pitch at younger age levels. Good stuff, with a few quotes from MSA exec (and World Cup assistant referee) Hector Vergara. http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2011/02/08/17190891.html Typical Sun-reader neanderthal stuff in the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 LTPD? About time. Those comments are sad but also ring true for a lot of parents I know. Reflected glory and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 'course I always thought learning the desire to win was part of a players development. Silly me. Ah, I don't know either way to be honest. Working with the pre-teens maybe isn't as hard as the later teens in the way you see the wide variety of individual physical development but it can still be pretty extreme so I guess anything that helps push the game a little more towards skills and a little away from athleticism can't be all bad. But the whole scheme falls down when those most responsible for developing the skill sets needed for "next year", that is to say the coaches, simply aren't equipped for the task at hand. And I'll tell you honestly that in my experience (despite some outstanding examples to the contrary) by in large the youth coaches I've met over the years, for all their best intentions, are in it over their heads. And I can't help but feel that some window-dressing like keeping score or not keeping score isn't going to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 'course I always thought learning the desire to win was part of a players development. QUOTE] Yes, the desire of winning is, and should continue to be, an important part of successful player development. Winning is the objective of any game. The thing is that, at this age, it should not be the only objective. It is one thing to have an objective to win a game. It is another thing to have winning as the only objective. The idea here is that, once the game is over, it's over. There is no need to keep a record of the result. One should focus instead on what one learnt during the game. What did you take from the game that you can work on in the future? How can you develop your skills? Remember that instead of whether you won or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I was going to immediately jump to an 'are you kidding?' post until I read this: "Between the ages of eight and 12, the focus will be on developing skills and fostering a desire to play. The new plan also recommends two or three training sessions per game played and advises equal playing time for all players, who try out all positions on the field. Scores would be kept during play but league statistics and standings would not be posted." I think this is a great idea. I've coached kids in that age range and winning the game on the day is important but stats, results not so much until they get into their teens. The training recommendation is key but then you have to keep the soccer fun which isn't easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoatsforever Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think the most noteworthy aspect of this decision is that they aren't dropping scorekeeping in order to protect the children's feelings or innocence or some other contrived new age reason. They're dropping scorekeeping- rightfully -because it shouldn't be the key factor at this point in development. Excellent decision, MSA deserve a pat on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Exactly. The kids can care about scores but the parents should care about skills development and fun as the long term goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think the most noteworthy aspect of this decision is that they aren't dropping scorekeeping in order to protect the children's feelings or innocence or some other contrived new age reason. They're dropping scorekeeping- rightfully -because it shouldn't be the key factor at this point in development. Excellent decision, MSA deserve a pat on the back. You guys are missing the point. They are keeping score during the game. Just not publishing results or standings. There is a key difference there as kids need the motivation to win during their time on the field. But standings --- i.e., fricking U10 Tier 8 championships for what they are worth ... are gone. Coaches concentrate on developing players to win on the day, not contriving to have a team represent at the U10 Tier 8 Tim Horton's City-wide championships at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoatsforever Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 You guys are missing the point. They are keeping score during the game. Just not publishing results or standings. There is a key difference there as kids need the motivation to win during their time on the field. But standings --- i.e., fricking U10 Tier 8 championships for what they are worth ... are gone. Coaches concentrate on developing players to win on the day, not contriving to have a team represent at the U10 Tier 8 Tim Horton's City-wide championships at the end of the season. I don't see how I missed the point. I didn't make any specific reference to in-game scoring. Obviously goals would be tracked, the point is that children and their coaches shouldn't be worrying about their season-long goal tally when they're between 8 and 12. The point at that age is to look how to get them scoring goals, dribbling well, passing, understanding the game as a whole and in the context of their own position. There are a lot of abstract concepts to be learned and understood before one can truly "get" soccer, and so focusing on statistics and trophies during early development will stunt the growth of many otherwise well-rounded players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well your original post said "They're dropping scorekeeping- rightfully -because it shouldn't be the key factor at this point in development.", which could be interpreted as you reading the article and assuming there was no 'in-game' scorekeeping. Of course there is, and we agree on it, so no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj52 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well your original post said "They're dropping scorekeeping- rightfully -because it shouldn't be the key factor at this point in development.", which could be interpreted as you reading the article and assuming there was no 'in-game' scorekeeping. Of course there is, and we agree on it, so no worries. A grim aside to this is when the EIYSA (Edmonton Club League much hated by Mario Charpentier) stopped keeping standings for their U10's a few years ago, EMSA went to the EMSA/CMSA controlled ASA Board and requested that EIYSA not be allowed to run U10's as the league was too focused on "competition". ASA of course granted the request and the U10 program was gifted to EMSA - who kept all standings and scores no matter how lopsided. I particularly recall seeing one result of 23-0 in a U10 boys indoor game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoatsforever Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well your original post said "They're dropping scorekeeping- rightfully -because it shouldn't be the key factor at this point in development.", which could be interpreted as you reading the article and assuming there was no 'in-game' scorekeeping. Of course there is, and we agree on it, so no worries. Fair enough, I should've been more specific. A grim aside to this is when the EIYSA (Edmonton Club League much hated by Mario Charpentier) stopped keeping standings for their U10's a few years ago, EMSA went to the EMSA/CMSA controlled ASA Board and requested that EIYSA not be allowed to run U10's as the league was too focused on "competition". ASA of course granted the request and the U10 program was gifted to EMSA - who kept all standings and scores no matter how lopsided. I particularly recall seeing one result of 23-0 in a U10 boys indoor game. Can we not just like...boil Charpentier in oil or something? THAT'S IT! The new ASA board needs to get Suncor as a sponsor, and then hold another SGM where Charpentier is deep-fried in sweet light crude! Former EIYSA members, bring your family! the kids'll love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj52 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Fair enough, I should've been more specific. Can we not just like...boil Charpentier in oil or something? THAT'S IT! The new ASA board needs to get Suncor as a sponsor, and then hold another SGM where Charpentier is deep-fried in sweet light crude! Former EIYSA members, bring your family! the kids'll love it. Like your thinking redcoat, but seriously when EIYSA was running no standings U10, it was very successful. It certainly didn't drop the desire for the players (and coaches) to want to win but the atmosphere was noticeably better at games and IMHO was helping to successfully shift the focus to player development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1867 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Like your thinking redcoat, but seriously when EIYSA was running no standings U10, it was very successful. It certainly didn't drop the desire for the players (and coaches) to want to win but the atmosphere was noticeably better at games and IMHO was helping to successfully shift the focus to player development. Yes-werent Colin Innes and Fred kern the authors of the decision to give mario -10? Dont see any reason why that arbitrary decision was made and no reason why it couldnt be changed back. The kids by and large go back to EIYSA by -14 anyway. Why hold back their prgress in a house league? It will be interesting to see what happens to the EMSA leagues this summer when the rurals all pull out to protest Marios actions. How many times can two teams play each other? Its ok though they will keep the score and the standings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I coach in a u11 league in BC. It is top tier. We did not keep scores in the first half of the season. We did keep scores now in the second half as a "cup" season. The first half was 10 games. the cup is 5 games. What have I noticed? My teams have been playing exactly the same way. Pass pass pass pass. We lost most of our exhibition games. Now in the cup we are undefeated (all 3 teams I run) barring 1 game, and I have noticed our opposition playing for victories rather than development - and teams that were playing passing games are now just "run!" "pressure!" "kick!" all game long and as a result they can't get the ball off of us. I only know of 1 u11 league in BC that keep scores (Surrey Metro District). u12's keep score. u10's do not anywhere that I know of except maybe Surrey (but they might not either. I am not sure). Keeping scores takes away from the creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 LTPD is coming to all sports in Canada whether the scorekeeping parents like it or not. It's a successful model developed out of the programs that have worked in Europe for various sports including football. I keep getting pressure from an assistant coach to slot my U10 ringette girls into positions for the final third of our regular season leading up to our season ending tournaments, but I want them all to play all positions. I believe I need them to know the full game inside and out, instead of just what works in one corner of the rink. We can set lineups at the very end, but the season is about learning to play and having fun. I want them all back (with new ones joining) next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 +1. My assistant coach keeps asking me "why aren't we learning tactical positioning?" To which my response is - do you think the tactics in 8v8 are the same as 11v11? And he says "but they'll get the basics." I say "show me a kid that's going to remember the tactics you teach on a Thursday night come game time on Saturday" and realizes he can't. But he keeps asking me anyway.....he won't be assisting next year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 +1. My assistant coach keeps asking me "why aren't we learning tactical positioning?" To which my response is - do you think the tactics in 8v8 are the same as 11v11? The real question is, can they figure out the tactics on their own? The big picture only comes by playing the big (whole) game, not your individual portion of it. I challenge my girls to take advantage of rules as written rather than simplifying the game to reduce mistakes. The mistakes, although not eliminated, are reducing with each game, and we have a much more balanced attack and defence regardless of who's assigned the position. "Total Ringette" I call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj52 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I coach in a u11 league in BC. It is top tier. We did not keep scores in the first half of the season. We did keep scores now in the second half as a "cup" season. The first half was 10 games. the cup is 5 games. What have I noticed? My teams have been playing exactly the same way. Pass pass pass pass. We lost most of our exhibition games. Now in the cup we are undefeated (all 3 teams I run) barring 1 game, and I have noticed our opposition playing for victories rather than development - and teams that were playing passing games are now just "run!" "pressure!" "kick!" all game long and as a result they can't get the ball off of us. I only know of 1 u11 league in BC that keep scores (Surrey Metro District). u12's keep score. u10's do not anywhere that I know of except maybe Surrey (but they might not either. I am not sure). Keeping scores takes away from the creativity. It's good to hear real-world examples like yours, pity that the message has fallen on so many deaf ears in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Can anyone clarify is this no score in games or not keeping league standings/titles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj52 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Calgary Minor soccer is also going to eliminate standings from U12 and down. I would expect there will be game sheets for these games as players will need to be registered, etc., however I haven't seen anything to indicate if the score will be recorded on the sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Some places keep the score in the game, but don't record it in the league standings. You can win a game, but you can't win a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 That is what they are proposing. As I posted earlier in this thread, check the bold bit: "Between the ages of eight and 12, the focus will be on developing skills and fostering a desire to play. The new plan also recommends two or three training sessions per game played and advises equal playing time for all players, who try out all positions on the field. Scores would be kept during play but league statistics and standings would not be posted." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj52 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 That is what they are proposing. As I posted earlier in this thread, check the bold bit: "Between the ages of eight and 12, the focus will be on developing skills and fostering a desire to play. The new plan also recommends two or three training sessions per game played and advises equal playing time for all players, who try out all positions on the field. Scores would be kept during play but league statistics and standings would not be posted." I suppose then that the referee would keep track during the game so if a coach lost track of the score there would be an official record during the game? Would the score be then recorded on the game sheet and submitted to the league office for internal use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Standings would not be posted, it says. Not that standings/statistics would not be kept. The point is that coaches and especially parents would not be tracking these things and putting external pressure on the kids to perform. The kids put enough pressure on themselves for each game. A losing season still will feel like a losing season with or without standings. I know that's part of the reason I'm struggling to get my daughter to rejoin soccer for this summer. Let's face it, playing better soccer is more fun. It would be important to have a way to seed teams for "festival" (aka tournament) play, which is what many LTPD programs are trying to put the "competitive focus" on. You'd want each loop to be internally competitive so that teams aren't blown out. To that end, standings / stats would be useful for internal use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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