Morace to quit after WWC?

[terpfan68]

I know it's a few comments back but in reference to German women being in the military, I don't think that is a viable model for Canada BUT in Germany if a women is on the National team and if she is in the military, then the military uses her on their teams and does provide employment either as a reg-force or reserve member. My daughters have travelled to France, Holland, Germany and India to participate in Military soccer competitions. This summer they hope to represent Canada at the World Military Games in Rio. They have played against French, Dutch and German teams that have National team members on their squad and the N. Korean team that won in India was mostly their National team. I think a better model would be if corporations sponsored individual players, picked up their salary and let them off to train with the National team. They could hire these very presentable young women in their area of training. Most of them would I believe have University degrees. Any thoughts?

[CoachRich]

I don't agree with that Paul. We were miles ahead of Zimbabwe. The others pulled out because they knew it too. If we lose this bid it's 100% the result of this.

Pete, it appears you're pretty comfortable with Moscato having all the relevant information in the dealings and relationship between Morace and the CSA. I'm not comfortable she even has half of it, but I would agree 100% with this statement:

"I think that states pretty clearly [Morace's issues related to control] from someone that is a chosen spokesperson of the group what the problems are [from the information they have received]."

For the WPS players, we have 4. The Americans have an entire team of players in the league for every one we do. Also as Jason de Vos pointed out, that $2500 would cost us close to a million dollars a year. And again, if our players wanted that form of appearance fees allocated out of their program costs, did they ask Carolina Morace for it, and did she ask the CSA to execute on it? Those are pretty important questions when extreme measures are being taken.

It's all well to want the kid next door's allowance, but it's never as simple as "they got it, I deserve it." I would really like to see our women get appearance fees. They work damn hard for it and deserve it. But there's a process to that where things are planned and balanced in our budgets. The money moving there has ramifications to other things in the program.

Never enough Valentine's Day in Canadian women's soccer these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuFoMgP4IPot=00m39s

Vic, the problem is the WNT has no allowance plan at all from the CSA. The CSA has had 10 years of communications from the WNT to get to the table. In the last 2 years there's been a formal proposal/request in front of the CSA BOB and the WNT has tried to pin down the CSA BOD at their competitions and all this has been ignored. The last year it's been the formal proposal/request along with a pro bono lawyer for the WNT trying to get the CSA to the table.

The CSA is in a position they can't defend as there is a timeline and some of it has been years papered. IMO the CSA has to open up, sit down and negotiate fairly or they will find themselves before the SDRCC or the courts. The CSA only other option is to go the ASA route and threaten to suspend everyone with another FIFA letter saying you can't do this. The CSA and FIFA are not above the laws of Canada and the ASA saga proved that.

How anyone can support an organization like the CSA that acts in this matter towards it's athletes is beyond me. The CSA BOD needs to get with the program or resign or be forced to resign.

Btw great video as that was one of my faves when I was hitting the Ipswich discos.

[Trillium]

I don't agree with that Paul. We were miles ahead of Zimbabwe. The others pulled out because they knew it too. If we lose this bid it's 100% the result of this.

Seriously if we dont get the WWC 2015 and you think its because of the players boycott...good on them, the truth Vic is ..the 2015 WWC will only be a party for the suits ...opps blazers it wont do anything to advance the women's game in Canada or ... leave any legacy.... just as the u20s left no legacy except the shipping out of Canada a lot of dollars to the gnomes of FIFA.

Seriously Vic give your head a shake, this is a serious reform issue and the WNT is on the right side of the argument. I am afraid you are very much on the side of the status quo and that is no longer acceptable in Canada for thoughtfull persons involved in the game.

Your not alone where you stand Jason De vos is also where you are hopefully he will see his is on the wrong side of the argument and the wrong side of history.

[Vic]

That status quo is giving our women better World Cup preparation than any country on the planet. Followed Godspeed by a home World Cup. Respect is a two-way street.

[masster]

Seriously if we dont get the WWC 2015 and you think its because of the players boycott...good on them, the truth Vic is ..the 2015 WWC will only be a party for the suits ...opps blazers it wont do anything to advance the women's game in Canada or ... leave any legacy.... just as the u20s left no legacy except the shipping out of Canada a lot of dollars to the gnomes of FIFA.

Seriously Vic give your head a shake, this is a serious reform issue and the WNT is on the right side of the argument. I am afraid you are very much on the side of the status quo and that is no longer acceptable in Canada for thoughtfull persons involved in the game.

Your not alone where you stand Jason De vos is also where you are hopefully he will see his is on the wrong side of the argument and the wrong side of history.

The U20 World Cup left us no legacy? It brought us BMO field, thus Toronto FC and the groundswell of support for domestic soccer that has since followed!

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

Few thoughts:

1) Although I agree that the women should get the prize money they earn, I'm a little confused on where they earn it. As far as I know very few, if any, women's tournaments pay any.

2) It's a bit disingenuous for Kara Lang (for instance) to suggest that she only received $4,000 over her career. She's seen the world. For free.

3) The assumption many are making is that CM has the best interests of Canadian soccer in mind. Let's hope that's right. We haven't seen any evidence though.

4) The other assumption is that the CSA isn't at all interested in what's best for the sport. That's pretty black and white thinking.

5) The question of where the men's appearance fees come from hasn't been answered -- i.e. is it out of the team budget, or is it a separate line. If you are going to talk about gender fairness that's a vital piece of information.

6) I'd love to see the players taken care of. I've yet to have it explained how we can afford it.

On the surface I can understand why it might look like I've taken a pro-CSA, anti-player stance. I don't think that's fair though. My position is that we need to seek the full truth to this and to do that we have to ask tough questions.

Tough questions to the CSA AND the women. Many seem offended by the idea that the CWNT should have to defend its position. I don't accept that. They deserve our respect as athletes, but they aren't really victims in the truest sense of the word. They are currently in Italy, on the CSA's dime, for instance. The amount of camps they have is not irrelevant, no matter how much some want to argue otherwise.

Should CM have control of her budget? Sure. But, what's "control" mean. The nickel and dime stuff many of the players have complained about would certainly be annoying, but a hole in their sock is not really big picture stuff. The ability to schedule camps and properly prepare for the WC is. Have we seen evidence that they haven't been given that opportunity? One of the issues was the ability to have an extended camp in Italy before the WWC. From what I know the CSA didn't say no. Rather it said, we need to find the money, if we can let's do it (at least that's what I've been told).

I don't know. There is a lot of spin on this. There isn't much else, sadly.

[Pete K]

Pete, it appears you're pretty comfortable with Moscato having all the relevant information in the dealings and relationship between Morace and the CSA. I'm not comfortable she even has half of it, but I would agree 100% with this statement:

"I think that states pretty clearly [Morace's issues related to control] from someone that is a chosen spokesperson of the group what the problems are [from the information they have received]."

For the WPS players, we have 4. The Americans have an entire team of players in the league for every one we do. Also as Jason de Vos pointed out, that $2500 would cost us close to a million dollars a year. And again, if our players wanted that form of appearance fees allocated out of their program costs, did they ask Carolina Morace for it, and did she ask the CSA to execute on it? Those are pretty important questions when extreme measures are being taken.

It's all well to want the kid next door's allowance, but it's never as simple as "they got it, I deserve it." I would really like to see our women get appearance fees. They work damn hard for it and deserve it. But there's a process to that where things are planned and balanced in our budgets. The money moving there has ramifications to other things in the program.

Never enough Valentine's Day in Canadian women's soccer these days.

I think in terms of the information that is out there, that I would be pretty comfortable with Moscato having the most information from Morace's side from what has been presented. I think it's pretty fair to say that if she is appearing on national television and in worldwide publications articulating Morace's problem, that she would not have done so without running past Morace what she would be saying. My point, is that I would take a National Team representative's point of view before I would take the kind of speculation that has been swirled around, almost all of it very unfavourable towards Morace. I still give the woman my full tip of the hat, in terms of the results that she has been able to accomplish in a very short period of time.

I agree that the women have been given a very good tune-up to the WC thus far. Vic, you've mentioned a few times that you feel that it is the best on the planet. I'd argue that it is all relative. I know for a fact that in countries such as Norway and Germany, that the Football Federations puts money into the top women's league, which allows for the women to be training under the watchful eye of the coaches, and only gathered periodically for camp. The CSA has no such expense, and since there is no pro league for women in Canada, there should be extra money to spend. Furthermore, there is more of a need to gather the team together more often, to evaluate the players, monitor progress and quite simply to ensure the players on the team are getting top quality games in preparation.

I agree with you that the women are getting a good amount of camps and preparation, but again right from the CSA's mouth their goal for the team is to medal at the World Cup, so if that's their goal as an organization, then they should be following their own mandate and preparing them accordingly.

In terms of bringing up the USA's player compensation. I know again it's comparing apples and oranges and I'm not suggesting that it would be reasonable for the CDN women on a 19 game schedule to be receiving that. My only point is that it's a bit ridiculous that the women are getting zero from the CSA and that I don't think it's outlandish for them to receive something from the CSA coffers. Federations in countries such as Denmark and Norway give the players compensation for being on the National Team as well as support towards the national leagues in those countries. Relatively speaking they have nowhere near the amount of girls registered to play that we do in Canada, so again it takes us back to what I think is central to this entire debate.

Where exactly is all the money going?

[mtlfan]

Few thoughts:

2) It's a bit disingenuous for Kara Lang (for instance) to suggest that she only received $4,000 over her career. She's seen the world. For free.

No she did not see the world for free, she paid a heavy price blowing out her knees not to mention the training to make the team.

[ThruBall]

Where exactly is all the money going?

I am in agreement with Pete K.

The central issue is not about CM; it is about the CSA.

The calamity around CM and the WNT has helped to push the CSA dysfunction into sharper focus here in Canada because of the timing for the WWC and the FIFA 2015 bid.

If CM’s side is ever to come out I suspect the details around " diverging strategies between the CSA and her" will point to at least the following:

- Why was BR named HC for the U17 program?

- Why are the NTC programs not integrated or accountable to CM?

- Why does her allotted budget keep moving in and out of her budget control?

The answer to all of these questions lies with in the CSA.

At $ 14 million annually with 85% of that amount reoccurring exactly why is this a $$$ issue? 67% of the expenditures occur under the direct control of the CSA executive and are not aimed at the National Program. When you see expenses like $ 1.5 Million spent on "Soccer Equipment" in 2008/2009 with $35K remaining in "Inventory" in 2009........

I'm waiting for the real news to surface.

Its a shame all this mess still exists when the USF appears to have started to shape their program for the future back in 2000. Our game and governing association is 11 years behind and has just struck a date of 2015 for reform to really begin!

CM arrived 2 years ago. She didn’t create this problem. She lives with it! Suggesting she has anything to do with the WWC Bid win/loss is simply looking for an escape goat and is supporting the status quo….. i.e. the CSA.

[Vic]

I agree that the women have been given a very good tune-up to the WC thus far. Vic, you've mentioned a few times that you feel that it is the best on the planet. I'd argue that it is all relative. I know for a fact that in countries such as Norway and Germany, that the Football Federations puts money into the top women's league, which allows for the women to be training under the watchful eye of the coaches, and only gathered periodically for camp. The CSA has no such expense, and since there is no pro or even semi-pro league for women in Canada, there should be extra money to spend.

Sure, if we had the revenues of those countries.

Ask any national coach if they would prefer their players were together 24/7 or together for a couple of weeks a year. The reason they aren't doing it is either they can't afford it or have a different approach to investing in growth. We invest everything in our top 25 players and nothing in the next 250(,000). We could change that of course. Spend the majority of our women's budget to be more inline with the rest of the world by developing a wider platform that allocates it over ten times the recipients. Would that make us more successful? There's a good argument either way and I honestly don't know. Would it make the coach and the players happier? Have they've ever asked for that?

I agree with you that the women are getting a good amount of camps and preparation, but again right from the CSA's mouth their goal for the team is to medal at the World Cup, so if that's their goal as an organization, then they should be following their own mandate and preparing them accordingly.

The CSA has a lot of goals. You could argue the same for any of them. We should put every dime we have into development, we should spend every available cent in getting more revenue, we should spend it on national leagues, participation, coaching, facilities... it's better in Germany, it's better in England, it's better in Italy, it's better in Brazil, blah blah blah. Where does it all end? When is it about enjoying what we have and not what we don't?

My only point is that it's a bit ridiculous that the women are getting zero from the CSA and that I don't think it's outlandish for them to receive something from the CSA coffers.

I don't think anyone does. Many of us have believed in it for decades. It sounds like everyone is in agreement so great. I have no doubt the next fiscal budget for calendar 2012 will have it broken out of the women's program. Success. The players will be happy because they'll be assured it will be approved in the Fall. Mission accomplished. If you think that's the real problem.

Where exactly is all the money going?

For it to be going it has to be coming.

Comparing soccer economics in Canada to countries like Germany and Norway is like comparing them in hockey. Germany is a juggernaut. Even Norway, a country a tenth of our size - has ten times our revenue. That's a 100 multiple. The lion's share, 85 million dollars a year, comes from TV revenue and sponsorship. Their biggest expense is the men's league - 33% of their money. The women's is 4%. If we apply those percentages to Canadian soccer, or their spending 4% of their money on their national teams, it's not a pretty picture.

[CoachRich]

Yes, this is all about reform as the CM and WNT issue is another pot hole due to the CSA BOD in the road of Canadian soccer development. My question to everyone here is how much longer do we want a dysfunctional CSA BOD messing things up for the development of the game? Looking at the current events do we want to support our teams now when they need help or wait longer on a timeline that the CSA is dictating to us? I'm not waiting for the CSA, I want them gone so our NT and the rest of soccer in the country can grow without the constant bleeding going on caused by the CSA Perkie Boys Their track record speaks for itself doesn't it???

The best thing the CSN boys can do is ask

- the CSA for their 2010/2011 budget that will show the facts. I've asked and no luck

- for a breakdown of each program by gender and program as the combined method the CSA uses doesn't tell us anything.

- to refute the numbers in Pathway to Excellence as it shows the intent of the CSA. Why can't they show us the same format with the actual numbers now when it's really important to all?

- why the CSA hasn't reported any news of the current events on their web site. If they did that would be transparency

- the CSA why they refer to the WNT budget being 18% but don't tell anyone that's basically the number they bring from external funding

Btw did this article make it here?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/937939--women-s-national-soccer-team-keeps-up-pressure-on-csa

[CoachRich]

WNT Umbro kit "It felt something like Christmas. We were handed our new training kit, and we are all in favor of new equipment. Sizing was interesting. The gear is all in men’s sizes, but thankfully Maeve was über organized and she had brought some youth sizes for the smaller members of our team. For the first time in a loooooong time, we were all wearing gear that almost fitted us. This is a great thing!!"

http://www.rhianwilkinsonsoccer.com/journals/journal%20441%20%20Umbro%20Equipment%20%202011.html

[paul-collins]

Woo hoo, almost fitted kit!

[terpfan68]

What is the role of the CSA according to its charter? Are national teams and elite player development their priority or is it the overall development of the sport? Should the majority of the funds be devoted to the top end of the developmental pyramid or should it be given to the base. If their mandate is to support the broad base of players then elite (national) teams will always be wanting of funds.

[Trillium]

What is the role of the CSA according to its charter? Are national teams and elite player development their priority or is it the overall development of the sport? Should the majority of the funds be devoted to the top end of the developmental pyramid or should it be given to the base. If their mandate is to support the broad base of players then elite (national) teams will always be wanting of funds.

The base is cared for by clubs....once you see money flow above it goes to the elite and the blazers. Eastern Ontario sends some $250,000 dollars a year to the CSA every year thats a cool one million every four year cycle.

What service do we get from CSA.... booklets on programs that never get launched, and we get to invite national coaches to events and pay them a per diem above and beyond their CSA salary.

So finanical reform is a serious issue because the money to CSA disappears down a hole and the locals dont get a payback on the fees paid.

So simple truth .... the money at the CSA level is being wasted, where its wasted cannot be determined but its being wasted.

[Trillium]

The U20 World Cup left us no legacy? It brought us BMO field, thus Toronto FC and the groundswell of support for domestic soccer that has since followed!

All the dollars for BMO field were generated locally in Canada not a penny from FIFA, the stadium would have been bulit by MLSE as they looked to go to MLS, the stadia gift to TFC was not the critical business decision for MLSE.

And of course the community aspect of the stadia ...field turf and use during winter under a dome.... has gone, so the U20s in my humble opinion did not bring us BMO it would have happened in any case.

The vast majority of the funds came from the feds from a fund to be used for amatuer sport... if the feds looked at it now how its used they would say it ... is not according the deal planned or envisioned by the funding model.

We would have had a better legacy if the CSA had applied for 20 million and built ten stadia at 2 million each....for 2000 seats, and partner with local clubs to come up with the other funds for the field turf installs etc. That would have created a solid D3 facility legacy.

[Vic]

Pretty quiet on the Morace front. It may be the global village but an ocean has a way of slowing things down.

Catching up:

John Molinaro

Carolina Morace [Discussed a couple of times in an Italian interview]

World Cup Canadian broadcasting

[masster]

All the dollars for BMO field were generated locally in Canada not a penny from FIFA, the stadium would have been bulit by MLSE as they looked to go to MLS, the stadia gift to TFC was not the critical business decision for MLSE.

And of course the community aspect of the stadia ...field turf and use during winter under a dome.... has gone, so the U20s in my humble opinion did not bring us BMO it would have happened in any case.

The vast majority of the funds came from the feds from a fund to be used for amatuer sport... if the feds looked at it now how its used they would say it ... is not according the deal planned or envisioned by the funding model.

We would have had a better legacy if the CSA had applied for 20 million and built ten stadia at 2 million each....for 2000 seats, and partner with local clubs to come up with the other funds for the field turf installs etc. That would have created a solid D3 facility legacy.

BMO would not have been built without the U20 World Cup. The government money never would have been there without a central event to justify it. And to think that MLSE would have built a stadium simply for an MLS team whose success was not a guarantee at that time is just foolish.

[VPjr]

We would have had a better legacy if the CSA had applied for 20 million and built ten stadia at 2 million each....for 2000 seats, and partner with local clubs to come up with the other funds for the field turf installs etc. That would have created a solid D3 facility legacy.

Interesting point Trillium

this is my feeling when it comes to the Pan Am Games.

Why spend 40 or 50 millions to refurbish Ivor Wynne when what soccer really needs is 5 or 6 stadium capable of seating 1500-2000 that could possibly be built for $6-8 million each and which would have FAR long term benefit for the sport. If they wanted to refurbish Ivor Wynne, they would have done it anyway.

It amazes me how poor the quality of decision making is when it comes to developing facilities that will really promote the growth of the sport. The Pan Am games will leave very little real legacy for soccer.

[mtlfan]

Let's stay on the topic.

[terpfan68]

Ok, on topic. If Morace's does quit and the team fails to negotiate a settlement with CSA: Will they refuse to play in the WC and if they refuse to play, will Canada send a "replacement" team? Will other players cross a "picket line" to play?

The players bargening position weakens considerably after the WC unless they play and have a top three finish.

[Richard]

I sincerely doubt it will come to that, the players and the CSA have far too much to lose.

[Pete K]

I sincerely doubt it will come to that, the players and the CSA have far too much to lose.

I'm starting to feel like this was a big publicity stunt to bring attention to matters that have been plaguing the team for a long time, at an opportune moment when public attention of the CSA's ineptness was at the forefront of the discussions. Not only for publicity, but to force the CSA's attention. At this point, I can't see the team not playing their first game at the Cyprus Cup. Like you said Richard, I think they have too much to lose.

[Admin]

Ok, on topic. If Morace's does quit and the team fails to negotiate a settlement with CSA: Will they refuse to play in the WC and if they refuse to play, will Canada send a "replacement" team? Will other players cross a "picket line" to play?

The players bargening position weakens considerably after the WC unless they play and have a top three finish.

If they refuse to play, I would expect the entire federation to be banned for a full cycle or more.

[Richard]

Canada would also very likely wave goodbye to WWC 2014 too.