Is a 2nd Division Sustainable?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

....Before Bill Gates leased DOS to IBM, he couldn't have pointed to concrete proof that he would own the rights to it.....

Please try to look at things rationally and dispassionately rather than being driven by your emotions. Bill Gates got on with doing the job in concrete terms and became a billionaire as a result. He didn't spend his days endlessly discussing the possibility on whatever was the 1970s equivalent of the internet. In contrast, jloome has absolutely nothing to offer an organization comparable to IBM in terms of new ideas or concepts on this and isn't actually taking any concrete action to translate his ideas into reality. Launching a Canadian league has been tried before various time including one that had teams operating in the same market as high profile franchises in a D1 level league comparable in stature to MLS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_%281983%29

http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/cpsl.html

so there is nothing new under the sun on this, basically.

Here's something to ponder. If it were going to work maybe it would have actually happened by now given there have been multiple attempts to do it stretching as far back as 50 years ago?

http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/ecpsl.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_City

Worth noting that people like Harold Ballard and Steve Stavro did the sort of things jloome talks about on here with their Toronto City franchise by attracting quality players over from the UK before many/most of us were even born but soon tried to move over to a more-MLS style North American approach by indirectly laying the groundwork for the original NASL.

Unless or until another Gerry Gentile appears on the scene who is actively trying to attract sponsors and investors to something like the CUSL blueprint there is no actual news content to any of this. Maybe the powers that be on here should start up a separate future league formats subforum so that this whole topic can be discussed speculatively by people who are interested in that sort of thing in a contained area so it can be kept out of threads and subforums that deal with actual concrete news and events in the here and now?

[Redcoatsforever]

Please try to look at things rationally and dispassionately rather than being driven by your emotions.

I don't see how I've turned it into an emotional argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_%281983%29

http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/cpsl.html

so there is nothing new under the sun on this, basically.

Yes, there have been lots of failures, and I'm not trying to detract from that. Again, the lack of conrete funding argument was at one point relevant, I think. However, repeating it verbatim when it has become obvious that what's being discussed is entirely hypothetical seems quite redundant to me.

Here's something to ponder. If it were going to work maybe it would have actually happened by now given there have been multiple attempts to do it stretching as far back as 50 years ago? Unless or until another Gerry Gentile appears on the scene who is actively trying to attract sponsors and investors to something like the CUSL blueprint there is no actual news content to any of this.

Another legitimate point, it probably should've happened naturally by now, maybe cross-border leagues are the best route to building the types of clubs that could one day branch off into an all-Canadian league?

I've already come out and admitted that I am less knowledgeable on the subject than both you and jloome, and I think that it could probably be agreed that the two of you are the ones spearheading either side of this argument. At least, I think it looks that way, because I feel the two of you are the only ones offering new points and debating them with any consistency. (though not always with civility ) The best thing I believe then, is that we continue discussion without just repeating the exact same arguments over again. I take issue with Richard's post because he continually rehashes the same point adding nothing new, and does it with the kind of pompousness I wouldn't even expect from Conrad Black.

Maybe the powers that be on here should start up a separate future league formats subforum so that this whole topic can be discussed speculatively by people who are interested in that sort of thing in a contained area and kept out of threads and subforums that deal with actual concrete news and events in the here and now?

I don't see anything unreasonable about that. But since we don't have such a subforum, this one seems most appropriate for the topic.

[jpg75]

Ahhhh....true enough.

You're right dude, I apologize. ****ing hothead sometimes, you know?

I would say, with respect to debating Ted and Richard, that it seemed resolved that the discussion wasn't about whether we'd be able to find funding in the first place. In reiterating that I was being a bit of a smug prick.

I can be a hothead too sometimes, nothing personal man. Sorry for calling your idea stupid.

[Richard]

If you have nothing to contribute, and no relevant criticism of jloome's -or anyone else's for that matter- ideas, why do you keep posting in this thread?

If you think that criticising because not once has he (or you for that matter) responded to my questions about the investors essential to getting his dream league started is not relevant, then I rest my case.

[Redcoatsforever]

If you think that criticising because not once has he (or you for that matter) responded to my questions about the investors essential to getting his dream league started is not relevant, then I rest my case.

So, in a discussion about a hypothetical league, you expect him to have a full portfolio and presentation at the ready, detailing specific investors who would prop it up?

Also, jloome is talking about his dream league. Not once has he stated that he has real plans to get it off the ground, or that it is going to happen. The whole discussion is entirely based in hypotheticals, suppositions, and predictions. "Investors crucial to getting his dream league started..." don't enter into it.

You haven't criticized the league structure, which is what is being debated, only the lack of money. Of course an imaginary league has no money.

[paul-collins]

From the OP, the questions posed were:

1. Are enough people willing to pay sustainable admission prices?
   
   
2. Do we have a sufficient number of well-financed potential investors?
   
   
3. Do Minor League Baseball and the AHL provide models for success?

I would argue that if 3, then 1. Richard wants to focus on 2. I think you have to answer 1 before you can even cultivate 2.

I think CHL is a more appropriate model than AHL, as it has independence from the NHL that the AHL does not (and we can't count on being cultivated or even abetted by MLS). To that end, I don't think a Canada only D2 is likely to fly, but a robust national in scope, regional in form D3 might.

[paul-collins]

I dunno, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss. I guess CSA does also, given their sanctioning moratorium and desire to study the feasibility. It's all well and good to point out history, but history is just a story that is in the context of past conditions.

Are current conditions different? What conditions contributed to the past failures that have changed, or can change if we choose to act? The reason the argument goes on is because you and Richard are strong on the history but you sidestep these conditions. jloome seems to believe certain critical factors have changed, while I remain unconvinced either way.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Where did you get the idea that I was opposing the discussion of soccer governance issues like the moratorium? All I am suggesting is that it should be separated from the actual game related stuff in subforum terms. Beyond that I invite you to actually read my posts as well as my blog if you think I have sidestepped any issues related to present conditions. Won't post a link to the blog given you are one of the people who seems to get all territorial about that.

[Redcoatsforever]

(...) if this subforum could focus more on the here and now actual game related news/discussion and the fan group stuff that people like jedinathan are looking to launch and jloome's agenda on D2 leagues could be moved over to some other CSA governance/league structure focused subforum.

Again, I agree completely. Tuscan just started one in the "Other Men's league and clubs" subforum, and I suppose any imaginary leagues being discussed by musing on what may or may not work would constitute "Other" leagues.

With that in mind, perhaps we ought to move the whole discussion over to that thread and render my argument with Richard moot.

In the spirit of minor concession, I'm sorry for calling you pompous Richard, I had forgotten about the original comments regarding FC Edmonton and the leadership of Fath and his group. In light of that, the investors questions are relevant.

[paul-collins]

Incidentally, the fact that investors aren't currently lined up is no indication that there aren't investors out there *to be lined up.* There's all kinds of money out there sloshing around (witness Buffalo Sabres) that is just searching for a personal investment (which team ownership is always about). It's my belief that it just needs a really convincing structure and some salesmanship to bring a few out of the woodwork.

(This is generally true of sports, and not just of soccer)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do you know who Gerry Gentile is and what happened when he tried to do just that and are you aware how what unfolded in that regard ultimately led to the CSA backing or at least acquiescing to MLS expansion into Canada instead?

[paul-collins]

Where did you get the idea that I was opposing the discussion of soccer governance issues like the moratorium? All I am suggesting is that it should be separated from the actual game related stuff in subforum terms.

That's fine and dandy, but this whole thread is about hypotheticals and it's not jloome's thread, so you can't say he polluted it by talking about hypotheticals.

Besides, it's not about the moratorium per se, it's about the stated motivation for it. This thread springs naturally out of the CSA's own stated thinking.

Beyond that I invite you to actually read my posts as well as my blog if you think I have sidestepped any issues related to present conditions. Won't post a link to the blog given you are one of the people who seems to get all territorial about that.

I do actually read your posts, although when the sentences get to 6 thoughts and 50+ words I sometimes glaze over. I'm sure your blog posts are just as densely worded and thoughtprovoking.

PS if you had bothered to read my posts you'd know that this was a perfect opportunity for you to insert a blog link and it would be relevant.

PPS funny that you're accusing someone of being territorial in a post where you're crying "this is the wrong forum for this stuff"

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Whatever. You accused me of sidestepping issues. If my posts make you glaze over and you haven't taken the time to read my blog you are in no position to make an accusation like that.

[paul-collins]

Do you know who Gerry Gentile is and what happened when he tried to do just that and are you aware how what unfolded in that regard ultimately led to the CSA backing or at least acquiescing to MLS expansion into Canada instead?

Only what I've read on the web. It's before my time in soccer.

[paul-collins]

Whatever. You accused me of sidestepping issues. If my posts make you glaze over and you haven't taken the time to read my blog you are in no position to make an accusation like that.

Ah yes, it's clearly the reader's fault that the posts are not understood. Couldn't possibly be the writer.

I'm sure I'll miss this line of argument.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I wouldn't dream of going on a hockey board to post about key governance issues because I lack the basic knowledge to be able to offer an informed opinion. I find it strange that recent converts to the sport I am passionate about do not feel inhibited in that regard. Soccer isn't something that just started up in Canada. It has fully 50 years of history at a fully pro level and a lot of people have cared deeply about it for a very long time.

[paul-collins]

Oh good, now it's the history angle. I'm not worthy. Got it.

You know, given the success of hockey governance and the lack thereof of soccer, maybe we need more hockey people here.

Not that I'm a hockey person; I come to all of this (sport governance) as a local participant who's only asking questions, listening and trying to judge validity of the answers.

[Redcoatsforever]

I wouldn't dream of going on a hockey board to post about key governance issues because I lack the basic knowledge to be able to offer an informed opinion. I find it strange that recent converts to the sport I am passionate about do not feel inhibited in that regard. Soccer isn't something that just started up in Canada. It has fully 50 years of history at a fully pro level and a lot of people have cared deeply about it for a very long time.

Calm down, some of us are a fair bit younger than all that. There's no need for a soccer knowledge pissing contest here.

[jpg75]

Soccer isn't something that just started up in Canada. It has fully 50 years of history at a fully pro level and a lot of people have cared deeply about it for a very long time.

You could even argue closer to 85 years with the NSL starting in 1926. Not sure how much or if players were paid at all, but with attendance in the 1,000's for certain games i'd say they were probably atleast semi-pro.

http://www.canadiansoccerhistory.com/ontario/nationalsoccerleague1.htm

They also held their own against some of the best of the time:

[Redcoatsforever]

You know, given the success of hockey governance and the lack thereof of soccer, maybe we need more hockey people here.

Not a bad idea, really, is anybody from the CHL leagues available to work on the cheap? Want a new challenge?

Remember that Garber's a football man by trade, and that regardless of what some soccer purists might think of conferences and playoffs, he has made MLS expansion work, and has effectively grown the league to a point where clubs are turning a profit.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Somebody just posted about trying a scenario that was tried less than a decade ago and failed miserably as if it were some new and insightful idea. If I went on a hockey board and did something like that I would probably be hounded off the forum as a clueless newb but because it's soccer somehow that's OK because nothing worth bothering about ever happened in Canadian soccer before they decided to start paying attention.

Talk of "new conditions" that crops up repeatedly is a symptom of complete ignorance of the fact that a fan group was backing the Blizzard in much the same way RPB and U-Sector do now with TFC over 25 years ago and ignorance of the fact that interest in about to be launched MLS teams in Montreal and Vancouver is actually a case of returning to the way things were when the NASL was at its peak immediately post-Pele rather than some a case of approaching some previously unscaled pinnacle.

There is a lot that can be learned from the past so that the same cycle of boom and bust isn't repeated (the season ticket renewal backlash late last year is a sign that sellouts may not last forever for TFC for example because MLSE are overestimating the emotional hold the team has over their customers at this point when they set ticket prices probably because they don't remember what happened to Blizzard crowds between 1984 and 1987) and the same misguided moves on forming national leagues aren't repeated over and over based on a collective attention span of under a decade.

[Redcoatsforever]

Somebody just posted about trying a scenario that was tried less than a decade ago and failed miserably as if it were some new and insightful idea. If I went on a hockey board and did something like that I would probably be hounded off the forum as a clueless newb but because it's soccer somehow that's OK because nothing worth bothering about ever happened in Canadian soccer before they decided to start paying attention. Talk of "new conditions" that crops up repeatedly is a symptom of complete ignorance of the fact that a fan group was backing the Blizzard in much the same way RPB and U-Sector do now over 25 years ago and ignorance of the fact that interest in about to be launched pro teams in Montreal and Vancouver is actually a case of returning to the way things were when the NASL was at its peak immediately post-Pele. There is a lot that can be learned from the past so that the same cycle of boom and bust isn't continually repeated.

I'm not getting cocky here, but this is another plus for Garber's expansion style, a big killer for the NASL was a too much, too soon expansion bubble that burst. This slow, measured approach is going to pay dividends, at least I think so.

[paul-collins]

So rather than pissing on the newbs, given that this historical information isn't what I'd call readily available, why aren't you discussing it? Instead we get "it won't work" "you newbs don't understand" or other such condescension.

Really, beyond the insult in the first few words, your last sentence is actually informative. Perhaps you should edit it out to remain consistent.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You could even argue closer to 85 years with the NSL starting in 1926. Not sure how much or if players were paid at all, but with attendance in the 1,000's for certain games i'd say they were probably atleast semi-pro.

Definitely solidly semi-pro from what I understand. Beyond Ulster Thistle's ethnic approach I think a lot of the top teams in North America in that era were employer sponsored works teams (Bethlehem Steel for example in the United States) and things were taking off in terms of interest until the Great Depression hit but I've never seen it argued that genuine full-time professionalism emerged at that point. There was a league that lasted one season in the late 40s that might have been an attempt at it, however. Never got around to researching it. It was North American rather than Canadian in scope and I think the Canadian team that was involved was called the Toronto Greenbacks.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So rather than pissing on the newbs, given that this historical information isn't what I'd call readily available, why aren't you discussing it?

Bear in mind that all I have done is describe what would happen on a hockey board if I acted like you have. Read back through your posts. Earlier you were talking about how I sidestep the present day "new conditions" and focus on historical stuff along with Richard. I don't accept that things have suddenly been transformed to a state that is without parallel in the past. 6 years after this clip it was all over last time around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dGbAFdOJQ

I don't think that's going to happen with MLS because they have been very careful not to make the same mistakes that the original NASL made but take nothing for granted because the sport won't truly have made it until world class players are routinely being developed by MLS teams and a level of play is achieved on that basis that is a lot more comparable to the best European leagues. Until then the economic model of the league will remain somewhat precarious.

Beyond that in some regards things are still not as strong as they once were. 30 years ago one of my cousins used to play for London City in the NSL in front of crowds of over 5000 in Toronto on occasion sometimes against big name import players from countries like Italy who were on salaries of up to $100k. Now despite all the subsequent inflation of the Canadian dollar and supposed growth of interest in the sport you would probably realistically have to divide those numbers by five or ten to describe the present day CSL. It used to be easier to draw a crowd for the second tier of pro soccer (usually semi-pro back then obviously) than it is now.