Hamilton Expansion Offical Thread

[dmont]

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I tried to combine the best features of my other two logos. Here's a new version in solid colours (top left), with shading (top right), and as an embroidered patch for how it would look on merch (bottom left), as well as a quick mockup of a jersey:

[BuzzAndSting]

Bob Young hire this man!

Love the jersey and my vote is for the crest on the top left. Email that to them ASAP!

[Redcoatsforever]

So has Bob Young ever made any sort of definite statements on a timeline? Like 2012, 2013, 2014?

When is Hamilton most probable to be in the NASL?

[kevin]

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I tried to combine the best features of my other two logos. Here's a new version in solid colours (top left), with shading (top right), and as an embroidered patch for how it would look on merch (bottom left), as well as a quick mockup of a jersey:

cool I like it

[kodiakTFC]

Thats a classy crest and I feel like it matches Hamilton pretty well. Out of curiosity, what do you guys think a Hamilton team could draw in both NASL, USL and NCC matches.

[Michael Crampton]

The crest is very good - my only quibble is the 70's ball - but DAMN does it not look great as part of that jersey. Up the Hammer!

(I feel more embarassed for FC Edmonton when I see people creating their own stuff like this.)

p.s. My suggestion would be to just start promoting that crest around the region. I'd be down for going back to my BHTC roots and creating a street team to make up stickers, shirts, scarves, even banners (or two sticks) and start distributing and displaying them in soccer friendly areas. Get a buzz going around the city and just treat dmont's design like the de facto crest. Sons of Ben supported a team that didn't exist for years and had a ready made supporters culture as a result once they eventually got into MLS. The Philly front office has worked in concert with them since day one and with a crest that good why not go one step further and start branding the club before it even exists?

[Michael Crampton]

Hamilton City SC I'd be fine, as long as they could get a Stag in there.

Just start calling them the Stags and see if it sticks. That'd be the great thing about an official name like Hamilton City SC: you'd still have tons of space for one or more authentic nicknames. I could easily imagine myself calling them City, the Stags, or the Hammers in different contexts. Edit: Oh, and Steelers obviously. Who's up for rousing rendition of "The Fields of Brian Timmins"?

[kevin]

so anymore news about the team

[hamiltonfan]

The team won't begin play until 2013 when new stadium is complete, there is a small chance the stadium will be done by 2012, doubt it.

I'd suspect we will hear word from Bob Young and co. come 2012.

[Redcoatsforever]

The team won't begin play until 2013 when new stadium is complete, there is a small chance the stadium will be done by 2012, doubt it.

I'd suspect we will hear word from Bob Young and co. come 2012.

I was given a feeling that the 2012 door would be open now, given that they're just refurbishing Ivor Wynne.

[Alex D]

I was given a feeling that the 2012 door would be open now, given that they're just refurbishing Ivor Wynne.

It's quite an extensive "refurbishment". The last I read was that only the north stand would remain and even it would be gutted and refurbished. The rest of they stadium will be torn down and re-built from scratch.

[Redcoatsforever]

It's quite an extensive "refurbishment". The last I read was that only the north stand would remain and even it would be gutted and refurbished. The rest of they stadium will be torn down and re-built from scratch.

So what's going to happen with the TiCats for their 2012/2013 seasons, then?

[LSM]

There was talk of them playing at McMaster, but they'd need a lot of temporary stands/buildings to make that work.

[Redcoatsforever]

There was talk of them playing at McMaster, but they'd need a lot of temporary stands/buildings to make that work.

Oh, wow. That would be an interesting situation. My main thinking in asking what the TiCats would be doing is that if the NASL team would be sharing a stadium with them, then there isn't really a limit on when the NASL team could form, seeing how they could use the temp stadium as well.

[-Hammer-]

Yeah, there is also talk of going down the road to London which has a slightly bigger stadium and could probably fit more bodies. There is also talk of running the entire season out of Moncton, who I'm sure would love the chance to show that they aren't a flash in the pan, and desire a CFL team of their own. The CFL really wants to get up to 10 teams, and with Ottawa working on Lansdowne for the new Ottawa CFL franchise, there is a good chance we may see another NASL team there too.

[Redcoatsforever]

Yeah, there is also talk of going down the road to London which has a slightly bigger stadium and could probably fit more bodies. There is also talk of running the entire season out of Moncton, who I'm sure would love the chance to show that they aren't a flash in the pan, and desire a CFL team of their own. The CFL really wants to get up to 10 teams, and with Ottawa working on Lansdowne for the new Ottawa CFL franchise, there is a good chance we may see another NASL team there too.

I understand that Moncton have been good all year, especially at touchdown Atlantic....but I prefer the London option.

[Drew Shaw]

I like the way you've made the banner with the name into a supporter's scarf. Good idea. A very good insignia overall.

[Drew Shaw]

It's encouraging that Young is more concerned with getting a team than which level it will be at.

And the name should be Steelers - hand's down. When your city had a good name in the past, bring it back, and re-connect with your own history. Toronto FC made a big mistake in not naming themselves Toronto Metropolitan FC, and connecting with the legacy of Toronto in the NASL, which includes a championship (1976?).

[Drew Shaw]

Interesting he mentions MLS. Unfortunately I think Ivor Wynne is too close to BMO Field for that to be likely. From what I remember an expansion bid from Trenton, NJ were told they couldn't get in at one point because of the Metrostars and they would have been considerably further away from the existing franchise that objected. Hope it's Steelers for the name. That has a history that goes back to the ECPSL in the 60s.

Canadian fans in Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, and Hamilton need to realistically accept that the MLS is never coming there, and that the 3 Canadian MLS teams are all there are ever going to be. Canada has 33 million people, the USA 300 million. That's a 1:10 ratio. We already have 3 of 19 (20 when NY Cosmos get in) MLS teams. The MLS is going to go to the US cities with 2 million+ people (San Diego, Phoenix, Minneapolis, Saint Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Miami), and US cities with 1 million people, before it adds more Canadian cities with only 1 million people.

If the four Canadian cities above can build stadia and solid clubs at the USL / NASL level, that would be a major accomplishment.

[Drew Shaw]

Yeah, there is also talk of going down the road to London which has a slightly bigger stadium and could probably fit more bodies. There is also talk of running the entire season out of Moncton, who I'm sure would love the chance to show that they aren't a flash in the pan, and desire a CFL team of their own. The CFL really wants to get up to 10 teams, and with Ottawa working on Lansdowne for the new Ottawa CFL franchise, there is a good chance we may see another NASL team there too.

Moncton is never getting a CFL team, and it amazes me that so many people, including the CFL, are acting like it might.

The CFL will return to Ottawa for its ninth team.

For a tenth team there are only 2 other viable options: Quebec and Halifax. Quebec is similar in population to Winnipeg and Hamilton, and has an existing football fan base at Laval, the best university football programme in Canada, and one of the few that actually draws a decent crowd.

After Wpg / Ham / Que, the next largest urban areas in Canada are London (500K), Halifax, (375K), Victoria (325K), and Kitchener (300K). Kitchener will never get a CFL team, nor will London, because the Ontario area isn't supporting the two existing CFL teams well enough to consider that. I live on Vancouver Island, and do not think that Victoria could support a CFL team (despite lots of Lions fans). Halifax is the only real metropolis in Atlantic Canada, with a population almost double that of Regina. Moncton has a mere 100,000 people, and that's being generous. You might as well talk about St John, Thunder Bay, Kingston, or Kelowna getting a CFL team if you're going to suggest Moncton. Nobody from Halifax is driving to Moncton to watch sports events. Halifax is viable, Moncton is not - end of story.

If either Quebec or Halifax actually build a 20K seat football stadium and have a solvent ownership group, either is going to get the 10th CFL team. But Moncton is never going to get a CFL team.

[Redcoatsforever]

A Moncton team has access to the market of 700,000 New Brunswickers, and drew 20,000 to the Argos - TiCats game. Cities like Moncton need to be given a chance by the CFL and other would-be Canadian leagues if we're ever going to build anything in this country. The Canadian Premier Basketball League teams have broken off to form an all Canadian league. Venture like these need to be given an opportunity in regions that will support them, not just cities.

So much of Canada is densely populated without being metropolitan, and it's high time we embraced that.

[Drew Shaw]

"A Moncton team has access to the market of 700,000 New Brunswickers"

Sure, as a television audience. But not at live games. I agree that an Atlantic CFL team will probably create more new TV fans of the CFL (in NB, PEI, NS, and NFLD) than a team in Quebec City would (since fans in QuebecCity and eastern Quebec are probably already watching the Alouettes on television), but that's the only advantage Halifax has over Quebec City. Moncton has a population of about 100,000. The New Brunswickers who live up the Saint John Valley and the North Shore will not drive to Moncton any more than people from Barrie or Windsor can be counted on to drive to CFL games in Toronto and Hamilton.

This pretence that people from Halifax will drive to Moncton is insane, and based upon anecdotal urban myths about Saskatoon supporting the Saskatchewan Roughriders. People in Saskatoon watch the Roughriders on television, not at Taylor Field. Ask them. The Saskatchewan Roughriders' walk-up crowd consists almost completely of people in Regina, and the season ticket base, despite the cute television interviews of famer families from Weyburn or Swift Current, consists mostly of people in Regina. The same is true everywhere, for all sports. People on Vancouver Island love the Lions, but we watch them on television, not so much in person, except for playoff games.

People in MLS are already complaining about the suburban stadia in Denver, Philadelphia, etc, and how they are difficult to get to and have no amenities (pubs, transit, etc) around them. The suburban sports facility is a proven failure. Downtown, sport-specific facilities with access to restaurants and transit are how you attract fans. Putting a team equidistant between cities of 50,000 (Fredericton), St John (100,000), Moncton (100,000), Sydney (100,000) and Halifax (375,000) would be like building the new Saskatchewan Roughriders stadium half way between Saskatoon and Regina, which would be stupid. The stadium that the NE Patriots and NE Revolution play in is a proven failure - a downtown stadium in Boston would be much better. Check out the attendance of the NE Revolution if you disagree. Proposing Moncton over Halifax for the CFL is clearly following a formula that other sports have shown does not work.

"and drew 20,000 to the Argos - TiCats game."

A one-off event will always attract more people than can be counted on for season ticket sales.

"Cities like Moncton need to be given a chance by the CFL"

No, the only three cities that should be "given a chance" by the CFL are Ottawa, Quebec, and Halifax, in that order, for exactly the reasons I have given: population, existing and/or traditional support for football, facilities (or lack thereof), quality of potential ownership groups, and access to corporate support. Moncton is as silly a place to discuss placing a team as Kelowna, Barrie, or Trois-Rivieres.

"if we're ever going to build anything in this country."

If we are going to build things, we need to build them properly. Each failure only hurts the next attempt. You need facilities, you need wealthy local owners, you need paying customers, you need corporate sponsorship, you need media reporting and broadcast. The CFL should be looking at Ottawa, Quebec, and Halifax. Period. The NASL should be looking at helping establish teams in Calgary and Ottawa. The USL should be looking for USL Pro and PDL in Calgary and Ottawa if the NASL doesn't, plus supporting and/or growing Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec, and Halifax; to add to what is already happening in Victoria and London. The CSA, if it's putting a moratorium on US leagues, should be looking at all the above cities, plus Saskatoon, Regina, Windsor, and Kitchener if they are looking to grow provincial, regional, or national leagues.

"The Canadian Premier Basketball League teams have broken off to form an all Canadian league."

Great. I hope they succeed. Just like I was sad to see the Canadian Baseball League fail, despite not caring about baseball; and the Rugby Canada Super League, which I attended games of.

"So much of Canada is densely populated without being metropolitan,"

That's nice, but that doesn't mean it can support a CFL team. The only realistic place for the CFL is in Halifax, the corporate capital of Atlantic Canada, and a city with almost double the population of Regina, and 3-4 times the population of the Moncton area.

[Hard Canadian]

Hamilton getting their own professional soccer club would be a dream come true. I remember, years ago, I watched a game at Burney Arbour Stadium and our team was named the Hamilton Thunder. It was so long ago (probably 10 years or so) that I can't remember which league they were playinng in, though my guess would be CSL.

A club in the MLS would be great for fans and the city but that is a very long shot, I think the NASL is much more suiting. Let them compete in the lower division, build a real team, a real fan base and then think of expanding to the MLS.

If we do infact get a team I really hope they stick to traditional club names and stay away from naming a team after an animal or what not. My preferences would be Hamilton FC or Hamilton City FC.

[Redcoatsforever]

Great. I hope they succeed. Just like I was sad to see the Canadian Baseball League fail, despite not caring about baseball; and the Rugby Canada Super League, which I attended games of.

What was the deal with that?

Did it just become unaffordable or something, because I had just resolved to drive out to a Niagara Thunder game in the next season and then found out they were only having CRC now.

[Drew Shaw]

What was the deal with that?

Did it just become unaffordable or something, because I had just resolved to drive out to a Niagara Thunder game in the next season and then found out they were only having CRC now.

In the CBL almost all of the clubs were very poorly financed, with the result that there was no advertising and therefore no awareness of the teams and league among potential fans. Some of the city choices were bizarre, and some of the parks were terrible. The crowds were pretty poor, outside of (IIRC) Victoria and London.

I don't want to be too rah-rah, but Victoria was the best run of the teams, and were getting good crowds at Royal Athletic Park (1500 range). The team was building a fan base, and was the victim of the league failing rather than their own problems. I'm not a baseball fan, but I know people who attended games and said it was a good product. I don't know how the league looked from the rest of the country. On a wider note, Victoria is one of the best cities in Canada for semi-pro sport, because it has no big league aspirations, and because it has a lot of people who are involved in sport (rugby, soccer, rowing, field hockey, even cricket). The lacrosse Shamrocks, baseball, soccer, junior hockey, and even university basketball all seem to do well there. It seems to me that Halifax and London are the two other places in Canada which are similar in size and attitude, and which are therefore "anchors" in any potential semi-pro sporting venture.

Rugby Canada Super League? I don't know what happened there, though I do know that the advertising for it and the attendances were dreadful. I live in Duncan (pop 25,000) in the Cowichan Valley (pop 50,000), midway between Victoria and Nanaimo (each an hour away). One year the Crimson Tide (Victoria team) held the final here in Duncan rather than in Victoria. One year they played one game at Shawnigan Lake School (a very expensive private school 30 minutes north of Victoria) in conjunction with a Canada vs Hong Kong match in the Pacific championship. Holding games in Duncan and Shawnigan Lake rather than in Victoria (pop 325,000) seems to indicate that they had absolutely no concept of how to market, and/or zero ambition in creating a fan base in Victoria. I guess you could argue that they were trying to expand their footprint; but that assumes having one in the first place. Holding a national championship in Duncan, even though our little club might have produced more national team members per capita than anywhere else, is still a ridiculous business decision. Rugby is terrible for that in Canada: it seems that those involved seem to think there is no potential fan base outside of the existing players and their wives.

One of the problems in asking me if the RCSL was too expensive is that I think one of the key problems with semi-pro sport in Canada is that too many of the people who support it are cheap. If they won't stump up $15 or $20 to buy an adult ticket to watch any sport, then how can they expect growth, or the attention of people with deep pockets? Sure it might just be a bunch of semi-pro guys (Cdn Base Lge, Rugby CSL, Soccer PCSL or CSL, WLA Lacrosse, etc), but these teams have pretty large travel costs, and if fans want a quality product they shouldn't expect to just get in for free. I probably felt differently when I was 19, at university, and watching Victoria Vistas in the old CSL; but any adult with a job who likes rugby/baseball/soccer/lacrosse shouldn't begrudge sports teams the money they need to operate. If we aren't willing to pay $30-50 to take the family out to watch a soccer (or lacrosse, or rugby, or baseball) game, then we really can't expect to see local semi-pro sports develop in Canada. Cheers.