holger

[BearcatSA]

Well you are right in that your view is opposite because I completely disagree. We had quite a few experienced veterans when he took over and it was mostly them he pissed off partly because he treated them like children. And I think if you are not going to suffer fools gladly you should also not act like one yourself and there were also many instances where his behaviour was as poor as any of the players. He may have changed and learned in the meantime (and we will see how long he lasts with Australia) but the fact remains that he has never lasted at any team other than Canada for more than 2 years and that says a lot.

Well, we are in agreement in that coaches of Osieck's style do have a short shelf life. And he certainly played to the strengths of the players at his disposal during the GC 2000 run and even in the GC 2002 third place finish, though the style wasn't pleasing to the eye of some observers (for instance, I remember reading Paul Gardner's review of our GC victory in World Soccer at the time and he was quite derisive of our tournament win). But apart from Forrest, an established #1 English Premiership keeper at the time, and De Vos (club captain at Dundee United), the bulk of his roster featured unaccomplished journeymen (Watson, Fenwick, Corrazin) and a slate of relatively unproven U23s types: this wasn't an accomplished side by any stretch of the imagination prior to the GC win. He got a marginal side to overachieve to success, much easier to do in a shorter time frame tournament format than in a much more extended WCQ campaign in a highly competitive environment.

Osieck appeared to have a real pettiness about him (I remember the rumblings of his dealings with Bircham at the 2001 Confed Cup, for example). In response to Cheeta's question as to how he would do with our current crop of international players, I wonder how he would have handled the likes of JDG out clubbing after the Honduras loss ahead of the do or die match in Mexico or DeRo's undisciplined MLS style freelancing in attack?

[Joe MacCarthy]

Before we start with the Holger revisionism let's remember a few things. The game where he called out Pat Onstad for being able to use his hands, wasn't that the one where Pat flew halfway around the world at the last minute. That was a particularly stupid thing for Holger to say, Pat was lucky to be awake.

Weren't the players confined to the hotel at the Confed Cup in Japan and of course the Bircham hat and singing on the bus incident. My memory may be a little faulty, it's been a long time, and I may be proved wrong about the above, but Holger outlived his usefulness and had to go.

[redhat]

Before we start with the Holger revisionism let's remember a few things. The game where he called out Pat Onstad for being able to use his hands, wasn't that the one where Pat flew halfway around the world at the last minute. That was a particularly stupid thing for Holger to say, Pat was lucky to be awake.

The game where Pat Onstad was called out was the first Estonia match where apparently his mistake cost us the match 2-1. Pat flew over 12 hours (or something of that sort) to get to the match, only to be publicly criticized by Holger.

There are things I like about Holger and a lot of things I don't like about him. I never liked his 5-4-1 formation against Mexico, his public humiliation about Bircham, and the lack of substitution in the Germany friendly . I do like his use of McKenna

up front, his confidence in a young PDL keeper named Hirschfeld, and youngsters Nsaliwa, Canizales, and De Rosario, and some measure of loyalty to Nash, Stalteri, Corazzin, Brennan, and Peschisolido. I also liked his criticism of the CSA when they are given substandard amenities: lack of a national stadium, poor accomodations in Japan, and coach air travel for players.

While he may have been perhaps the second best MNT coach, his time was up and had to go. I think he knew it right after the 2003 Gold Cup.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Wasn't Holger the one who introduced us to a young Toronto Lynx player Atiba Hutchinson who he thought capable of bigger and better things.

[themodelcitizen]

I posted this in the world soccer forum as I didn't realize a Holger discussion was going on here...

Shame that Holger didn't add to his honours - have there been any coaches to win continental national championships in two different confederations before?

Interesting that Holger's work here seems to have been a reason for his appointment. At the time Frank Lowy said "Holger has also worked in a nation where football is not the number one sport and proved that he can win a major Championship against nations who have football in their veins when he won the CONCACAF Gold Cup with Canada. One of the major criteria was his background in educating and teaching and being with youth. He will do the educating job, in the main for coaches. We hope in the medium term, as a result of Holger's appointment, to be able to have an Australian head coach in the near future.''

We failed to build on Holger's time in charge the way they intend to, but maybe with the right resources (mostly through Lowy) it can be done. Lowy also said Beckenbauer recommended Holger.

[Admin]

Given the amount of high school like hormonally imbalanced teenage drama festival shenanigans that seem to go on behind the doors of TFC, one wonders if a lot more Holger isn't exactly what we needed for a decade.

[jonovision]

Given the amount of high school like hormonally imbalanced teenage drama festival shenanigans that seem to go on behind the doors of TFC, one wonders if a lot more Holger isn't exactly what we needed for a decade.

There seems to be at least one common denominator in the player pool of the late Holger era and TFC of the last two years.

[Marc]

There seems to be at least one common denominator in the player pool of the late Holger era and TFC of the last two years.

In both situations I think the key is the limited talent pool - with more guys the whiners either shape up and get with the program to keep their spot, standout and prove their worth despite their failings, or fall slowly into the background.

I think Holder's downfall was that he didn't realize how thin our talent pool was. At the club level you can buy/sell players to change the dynamic, with teams that have depth (like Australia) you can bring in new blood to and slowly lose those past their prime, but with Canada at that time (and now) you get eight or nine players in your bad books and you can't replace them without significantly weakening the side or making it obvious that you've lost the room.

In the case of Holger, he worked in a few new guys when he first took over, had some success mixing them with the vets and when things started going awry he turned around to find some more and ... there was no one left worthy of bringing into the fold.

But part of it too I think is the rise of the increasingly well-paid Canadian soccer player with a decent Euro pro career. I know we always had our pros, but it wasn't that long ago where someone signing with Greenock Morton or tier four UK or League of Ireland was a big deal for us. Take Bircham. Something like 17 caps. Some of that is due to injury, some due to limited skill, but some is likely due to the fact that if we weren't World Cup-bound and it wasn't a barrel of monkeys then, well, what's the point?

I mean guys like Iain Fraser and Geoff Aunger and Mark Watson all had more of an incentive to really put it all out there and put up with the tribulations of someone like a Holger moreso than a lot of the guys who kinda rose to prominence for us in the late 1990s who had some success at their clubs and maybe made a few hundred thousand playing in tier two leagues in Europe and had better things to do than make a 9.30 PM curfew in Tegucigalpa.