David (Junior) Hoilett will he be with our National Team or Jamaica?

[jpg75]

2 weeks ago there were reports that he and Blackburn have started negotiations on a new deal.

[Ruud]

anyone aware if playing for national team gets some consideration in contract negotiations?

be interested to hear if this was the case

[canucklefan]

Just figured I'd point this out before people start asking if he'll be involved this fall.

Honestly, I can't blame him. In fact, I'm starting to support his decision to wait before he commits himself to Canada (or not). He wanted to see some improvements with the program, with the NT, but it seems the change is not coming soon. It seems pointless to have professional clubs with a poor quota of 3 Canadian players per club. I'd like to hear his thoughts on the lack of Canadian content from Vancouver Whitecaps.

[yomurphy1]

Honestly, I can't blame him. In fact, I'm starting to support his decision to wait before he commits himself to Canada (or not). He wanted to see some improvements with the program, with the NT, but it seems the change is not coming soon. It seems pointless to have professional clubs with a poor quota of 3 Canadian players per club. I'd like to hear his thoughts on the lack of Canadian content from Vancouver Whitecaps.

Yes you can blame him, Canadian soccer isn't going to get better because we want it to. If David Hoilett genuinely cares about the state of soccer in Canada he would be playing in WCQ for us. Building Canadian soccer requires "sacrifice" from our talented fence sitters who could do more to raise the profile of the national teams than any possible changes in the CSA.

[killgod]

anyone aware if playing for national team gets some consideration in contract negotiations?

be interested to hear if this was the case

If anything, there'd be stipulations not to play for Canada. From all I've read in the time I've been on this forum, seems like no UEFA club wants their players to play for Canada.

[canucklefan]

Yes you can blame him, Canadian soccer isn't going to get better because we want it to. If David Hoilett genuinely cares about the state of soccer in Canada he would be playing in WCQ for us. Building Canadian soccer requires "sacrifice" from our talented fence sitters who could do more to raise the profile of the national teams than any possible changes in the CSA.

Do you think he is going to make a difference when Ledgerwood won't make his job properly, will let the opponent cross the ball and then the attacker will put the ball in the net?

Hoilett is not a messiah and Canada has far deeper problems than a hesitant Hoilett, an excellent player who could help the team, no doubt about that, but with or without him, Canada won't qualify to the next WC at its current level.

[TFCRegina]

Do you think he is going to make a difference when Ledgerwood won't make his job properly, will let the opponent cross the ball and then the attacker will put the ball in the net?

Hoilett is not a messiah and Canada has far deeper problems than a hesitant Hoilett, an excellent player who could help the team, no doubt about that, but with or without him, Canada won't qualify to the next WC at its current level.

Every player of a higher quality will make this team better. Yes.

People seem to forget that Canada conceded 3 goals in the Gold Cup, yet only scored 2.

Goalscoring is a bigger problem.

[yomurphy1]

Do you think he is going to make a difference when Ledgerwood won't make his job properly, will let the opponent cross the ball and then the attacker will put the ball in the net?

Hoilett is not a messiah and Canada has far deeper problems than a hesitant Hoilett, an excellent player who could help the team, no doubt about that, but with or without him, Canada won't qualify to the next WC at its current level.

By your logic then what is the point of Atiba, Josh, or Simeon showing up, because we're obviously going to lose? Hoilett is not the messiah however he has the ability to improve our national team. Also someone choosing to play for a country based on their quality is ridiculous. David Hoilett is incredibly lucky like the rest of us to be Canadian. We live in a free, fair, and prosperous country these things don't just happen, they are built through hard work by its citizens, it's time David gave back.

[alberta white]

If anything, there'd be stipulations not to play for Canada. From all I've read in the time I've been on this forum, seems like no UEFA club wants their players to play for Canada.

If Hoilet has work permit issues, I find it hard to conceive how he can have an automatic option to play for England. I would pressume it will be based on his establishing a residential footprint over the last few years; However I personally consider this a totally BOGUS fifa ruling which should be binned anyway.

However, that been said, IF DH had already played for his country of birth already, then with FIFA now ranking Canada at 105. The PFA may call into question his legitamacy as a quality "International" and may block future work permits.

I'm not having a dig at the Canadian MNT here but trying to establish what criteria of hoops DH has to jump through to remain with an EPL team.

In the UK the Profesional Footballers Association (PFA) holds a lot of sway as to who gets a work permit. It is, in essence the last of the closed shop unions in the UK. It does not just work for the EPL players but also for all those players signed to Pro contracts throughout the English leauge system.

European players are free to move around on European workers legislation.

To put it another way. I have a work Permit (which allows me to live and work in Canada) based, to some extent on the fact hat I have an Honors degree within a specific skill set. That means that a governmental Labour Market Opinions determins there is not a natural born canadian locally with the skill set to match. Therefore I am not depriving a Natural born Canadian of a Job.

Should my qualification and experience be closer to a technical collage qualification, then the local field of Canadians able to do the same job as me may be more numerous, and I may well be depriving a Local of a Job.

Well In a similar way the PFA, looks at footballer's work permits in a similar way and may put pressure on the permit issuing authority, to make a Work permit does not take away the oppertunity for a UK born Player (and a member of the PFA) to progress his career.

Remember when DH was 19 his work permit was originally denied. and granted on appeal. At 21 he's establishing his abilities on the field, but I dont know his status is viewed upon work permit renewal.

Also, Leeds United lost a South African (Phil Massinger) back in the early 1990's because his international selections dried up. His permit stated that he had to maintain a set number of appearances for his country per year. He was injured that season so could not make that commitment, and lost his WP.

Currently DH's international playing status is not an issue on the WP as he technically does not have one.

Anyway, I have added the PFA Wiki below for information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Footballers%27_Association

Amussingly, I find this snippet intresting...

"Its current chief executive is Gordon Taylor, a former player with Blackburn Rovers."

[killgod]

Interesting information, thanks for sharing that.

[alberta white]

^ Your welcome.

Remember, I'm not saying its THE reason for his non-commital stance, but it may have some bearing.

Its that, "Walk a mile in my shoes" kind of thing.

[Snowball]

I been in and out of this thread...but does Hoilett have a family tie to England? Because if it's residence we're worried about (i.e. like de Guzman) I believe the UK nations have an agreement to not poach based on that. At least, that's what kept Nacho Novo from Scotland; http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7702704.stm

[redhat]

I been in and out of this thread...but does Hoilett have a family tie to England? Because if it's residence we're worried about (i.e. like de Guzman) I believe the UK nations have an agreement to not poach based on that. At least, that's what kept Nacho Novo from Scotland; http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7702704.stm

Not sure about that, but I'm sure we can trust England not to poach anyone eligible for Canada. ;-)

[Footscray]

I been in and out of this thread...but does Hoilett have a family tie to England? Because if it's residence we're worried about (i.e. like de Guzman) I believe the UK nations have an agreement to not poach based on that. At least, that's what kept Nacho Novo from Scotland; http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7702704.stm

Hadn't though of that pertaining to Hoilett - I wouldn't consider the avenue closed by any means but you're right - the gentlemens agreement is that they can not go further than players who at the very least have grandparents from the region if they are not from there themselves. The passport route is supposedly not open.

I've never heard of England capping an unrelated passport case, although the press flirted with the idea of calling up Almunia.

[Guest darowaan]

Regarding the Work Permits:

In England if a player wants to get a work permit and is not from a European Union member state then they have to apply for one. There is then 2 ways that they will be able to qualify for one. The first is that you have played in at least 55% of your national teams matches in the past year, so you have to basically be a full and key member of the national team. Or you have to be granted a special exemption by the committee which is only given to younger players.

The second method is how Junior was eventually able to get his Work Permit the first time since at 19 years old he was to young to be capped for any nation and be a full member of there national team meaning he did not have the chance to meet the first criteria. Junior has been granted a conditional permit which means that if at any point he moves clubs or signs a new contract he would need to apply for a new work permit that would then be tied in with his new contract. When he does have to do this he would no longer qualify for the special exemption since he would be 22 or older most likely and that means the pressure is now going to be on him to commit to a country where he will be a key member of the national team. Otherwise he would not be able to remain in England as a player.

To me that would suggest that Hoilett will need to commit to a country this fall to ensure that he has played enough to qualify for a permit when the time comes in the next few years.

[BuzzAndSting]

Regarding the Work Permits:

In England if a player wants to get a work permit and is not from a European Union member state then they have to apply for one. There is then 2 ways that they will be able to qualify for one. The first is that you have played in at least 55% of your national teams matches in the past year, so you have to basically be a full and key member of the national team. Or you have to be granted a special exemption by the committee which is only given to younger players.

The second method is how Junior was eventually able to get his Work Permit the first time since at 19 years old he was to young to be capped for any nation and be a full member of there national team meaning he did not have the chance to meet the first criteria. Junior has been granted a conditional permit which means that if at any point he moves clubs or signs a new contract he would need to apply for a new work permit that would then be tied in with his new contract. When he does have to do this he would no longer qualify for the special exemption since he would be 22 or older most likely and that means the pressure is now going to be on him to commit to a country where he will be a key member of the national team. Otherwise he would not be able to remain in England as a player.

To me that would suggest that Hoilett will need to commit to a country this fall to ensure that he has played enough to qualify for a permit when the time comes in the next few years.

So let me get this straight; Hoilett's contract is up June 30 2012, by which time he'll be 22, which you don't think will qualify him for the special "younger player" exemption to a work permit. So the only other way for him to get a work permit would be to play 55% of games for the country of his choosing in the year before his new contract would start. Assuming friendlies don't count because they can't cap tie him he would only be able to play for Jamaica if he played in their first two games of the 3rd round of WCQ, scheduled between June 8 and 12 (only FIFA dates between the expected start of the 3rd round and the expiration of his contract). Right?

[maccaliam]

I can't pretend to know loads about this topic but AFAIK, rarely does a player/club allow a contract to actually run down. Generally there is a new contract signed long before so that the player never really gets the idea of doing one on a free transfer, meaning I think he'll sign a new contract sooner rather than later and therefore he won't need to commit to anyone in the near future if he doesn't deem it necessary.

[alberta white]

Hadn't though of that pertaining to Hoilett - I wouldn't consider the avenue closed by any means but you're right - the gentlemens agreement is that they can not go further than players who at the very least have grandparents from the region if they are not from there themselves. The passport route is supposedly not open.

I've never heard of England capping an unrelated passport case, although the press flirted with the idea of calling up Almunia.

I think Almunia's case had a lot to do with his personal wish to become a UK (passport holding) citizen after spending so long in the England.

Howlers aside, thank god we found Joe Hart!

[BuzzAndSting]

I can't pretend to know loads about this topic but AFAIK, rarely does a player/club allow a contract to actually run down. Generally there is a new contract signed long before so that the player never really gets the idea of doing one on a free transfer, meaning I think he'll sign a new contract sooner rather than later and therefore he won't need to commit to anyone in the near future if he doesn't deem it necessary.

Why wouldn't he need to commit? From what darowaan said it seems like he wouldn't qualify for a work permit under the "young persons" exemption at 22, do you think he would qualify at 21?

[jpg75]

I don't think the exemptions have anything to do with age. These regulations are 2 years old, but they should still apply:

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesandRegulations/FARegulations/NewsAndFeatures/2009/work_permits_players.aspx

Panels

Where an application does not meet the published criteria, a club may request a panel to consider the player's skills and experience. In these cases The Football Association will refer the club's evidence to an independent panel.

Where possible the club's supporting evidence will be sent to The Football Association and other football bodies in advance for their consideration in order to allow an informed decision.

The panel will normally consist of representatives from the relevant football governing bodies together with up to three independent experts. The FA will endeavour to ensure there are no conflicts of interest between the independent experts and the applicant club. If the applicant

club wishes to object to the involvement of any of the independent experts it must do so in writing at least 24 hours before the panel hearing, explaining their reasons for the objection.

The panel's terms of reference are:

- To consider whether the player is of the highest calibre.

- To consider whether the player is able to contribute significantly to the development of the game at the top level in England.

The panel will make a recommendation to The Football Association whose decision will then be relayed to the club. The details of the voting will not be disclosed. Each member of the panel will provide written reasons for their own decision to the Secretary of the panel. A majority positive vote is required to approve an application (e.g. 4-2, 5-1 or 6-0).

Full terms of reference and roles of the panel members and the club are available to attendees. Clubs should note that, in respect of any application, there will only be one panel available (ie a panel and recommendation, followed by a decision). A club should therefore ensure that all evidence it wishes to present in support of its application is presented to the panel.

If the club has previously made an application that was unsuccessful at panel a further panel cannot be requested for the same player during the season. For these purposes a season is deemed to run from 1 June until 31 May.

[Guest darowaan]

Why wouldn't he need to commit? From what darowaan said it seems like he wouldn't qualify for a work permit under the "young persons" exemption at 22, do you think he would qualify at 21?

I just read over my post and it is not as cut and dry as I made it out. They will make exemptions in other cases for a very talented player, or someone who they consider to be capable of making the english game better. So if you are a star in the making, or a household name you might still be able to get a permit.

It is just a lot easier to get one when you are under the age of 21, again not a hard set age either. From what I know of the whole process the only way that he can ASSURE himself of getting another work permit in England when he does sign a new contract is by playing for a national team. He will likely either resign with Rovers this year or move elsewhere next summer so this first round of world cup qualifiers gives him the best chance to make sure he is set for staying in England long term.

[greenfield]

If we make it to Brazil, and Hoilett decides to suddenly cap for Canada I say we take the earliest opportunity during a home game to literally throws eggs at the son of a *****.

before or after we cap him lol

[maccaliam]

Why wouldn't he need to commit? From what darowaan said it seems like he wouldn't qualify for a work permit under the "young persons" exemption at 22, do you think he would qualify at 21?

I did think 21 would qualify him as a young persons exception but after reading those following posts it has confirmed it: I have no clue.