Scottish media report on DeRosario having a trial with Celtic

[Lord Bob]

No he isn't! How can you say that De Rosario's value is less than that of an NHL enforcer?! My friend plays for the NY Islanders in front of crowds a fraction of TFC's and he makes more than DeRo!! That is a crime

Your friend's team plays 41 home games a year, plus pre-season and playoffs. TFC, er, doesn't. They also probably charge more for tickets than TFC, although I admit I haven't looked. They definitely get more secondary revenues like television, advertising, etc. than TFC.

Most importantly of all, it's supply and demand. If your friends didn't sign with the Islanders, he'd probably get snapped up by another team for a somewhat smaller but fairly equivalent amount of money. If Toronto FC cut De Rosario right now, said "you are unrestricted, go," I'd bet money he doesn't surface as a designated player. In fact, I'd bet money that if he stays in MLS he cuts his pay cut, simply because you don't give that sort of coin to players like De Rosario who are in their early thirties, can only play in one direction, and doesn't draw in the fans by his name value alone in this league.

[Redcoatsforever]

Your friend's team plays 41 home games a year, plus pre-season and playoffs. TFC, er, doesn't. They also probably charge more for tickets than TFC, although I admit I haven't looked. They definitely get more secondary revenues like television, advertising, etc. than TFC.

Most importantly of all, it's supply and demand. If your friends didn't sign with the Islanders, he'd probably get snapped up by another team for a somewhat smaller but fairly equivalent amount of money. If Toronto FC cut De Rosario right now, said "you are unrestricted, go," I'd bet money he doesn't surface as a designated player. In fact, I'd bet money that if he stays in MLS he cuts his pay cut, simply because you don't give that sort of coin to players like De Rosario who are in their early thirties, can only play in one direction, and doesn't draw in the fans by his name value alone in this league.

None of those points would apply if DeRo were to sign for say, Houston or San Jose. Both clubs he was a fan favourite, won two championships, and have DP slots open. I guarantee San Jose (where Yallop is coach, and he worked well with DeRo before as Canadian coach) would sign him to a deal over half a million in a second if TFC dropped him.

[Richard]

Since football is a team game and the team includes players, coaches/management and support staff, if the proverbial 'chemistry' is not right then team performance will not be optimal. This is where leadership and man-management skills come into play and the most important roles here are the head coach and team captain. That 'chemistry' has plainly not been there at TFC for a long time. Even the best players are human and will inevitably be affected by this including their on-field performance. I think the best evidence of this is the many players who have been let go by the club, apparently for poor perfomance/productivity, and have gone on to produce well for other clubs and thus warrant better pay. I think DDR became disillusioned at TFC. As I try to be a galss-half-full kinda guy I'd like to think that the latest coaching/management moves at TFC may at last begin to create the right 'chemistry' and that would include a happier DDR.

[Vic]

^ understood and appreciated Richard. I've been there and used that approach many times in the past millenium in amateur soccer. As a manager you could easily apply that to professional soccer, but there's also another approach some people use.

Compared to amateur girls and young women's soccer (which is about feelings and emotion), professional soccer is cold, clinical business. It's 22 corporations on the field at once.

If you're busting your ass to win something for (a) your career, ( your country, or © your teams fans: put the nicest most caring gentleman beside you who can't kick a ball and you'll throw him off the field yourself. Put a train wreck beside you who can fill the net and you'll get him the ball all day long.

There's a lot of great music and art I love in this world that's produced by complete a$$holes. I don't have to love their disposition or political outlook to love their art.

George Best was a destructive wanker. Guy's like Barton not only did hard time but were actually convicted for beating up their teammates. Look up how many minutes he played in the weekend's win.

The hockey commentators were talking the other day about how they gauge teammates. The yardstick they used was in the trenches in WWX, would you want them at the end of your trench. At the highest end of soccer, or any other team sport for that matter, the guy I want on the end of the trench is the guy who gets the job done. I don't give a damn if he likes (a) me, ( himself, or © whoever we're fighting for.

Wayne Rooney signed a 5 year deal.

[Guest Ed]

None of those points would apply if DeRo were to sign for say, Houston or San Jose. Both clubs he was a fan favourite, won two championships, and have DP slots open. I guarantee San Jose (where Yallop is coach, and he worked well with DeRo before as Canadian coach) would sign him to a deal over half a million in a second if TFC dropped him.

MLS is a business. Yallop made it to the semifinals with his handbuilt squad. DeRo at 22 was a good signing back in 2000/2001. I would argue that he would not sign today's DeRo at 32 at that price.

[Richard]

^ understood and appreciated Richard. I've been there and used that approach many times in the past millenium in amateur soccer. As a manager you could easily apply that to professional soccer, but there's also another approach some people use.

Compared to amateur girls and young women's soccer (which is about feelings and emotion), professional soccer is cold, clinical business. It's 22 corporations on the field at once.

If you're busting your ass to win something for (a) your career, ( your country, or © your teams fans: put the nicest most caring gentleman beside you who can't kick a ball and you'll throw him off the field yourself. Put a train wreck beside you who can fill the net and you'll get him the ball all day long.

There's a lot of great music and art I love in this world that's produced by complete a$$holes. I don't have to love their disposition or political outlook to love their art.

George Best was a destructive wanker. Guy's like Barton not only did hard time but were actually convicted for beating up their teammates. Look up how many minutes he played in the weekend's win.

The hockey commentators were talking the other day about how they gauge teammates. The yardstick they used was in the trenches in WWX, would you want them at the end of your trench. At the highest end of soccer, or any other team sport for that matter, the guy I want on the end of the trench is the guy who gets the job done. I don't give a damn if he likes (a) me, ( himself, or © whoever we're fighting for.

Wayne Rooney signed a 5 year deal.

I'm talking about adult man-management Vic, the kind that is needed to mold any disparate group into a co-operative unit whether on the soccer field in the corporate world or on the military battlefield, not kid's feel good stuff. You may view it as 22 corporations on the field but at the end of the day it is just 22 human beings. Real leadership is a valuable commodity, very difficult to teach but it is instantly recognisable when a person has it.

[BearcatSA]

Since football is a team game and the team includes players, coaches/management and support staff, if the proverbial 'chemistry' is not right then team performance will not be optimal. This is where leadership and man-management skills come into play and the most important roles here are the head coach and team captain. That 'chemistry' has plainly not been there at TFC for a long time. Even the best players are human and will inevitably be affected by this including their on-field performance. I think the best evidence of this is the many players who have been let go by the club, apparently for poor perfomance/productivity, and have gone on to produce well for other clubs and thus warrant better pay. I think DDR became disillusioned at TFC. As I try to be a galss-half-full kinda guy I'd like to think that the latest coaching/management moves at TFC may at last begin to create the right 'chemistry' and that would include a happier DDR.

Good points about chemistry, Richard. In discussing the highlighted point, I agree with it in regards to guys who had been in MLS prior to coming to TFC and then continuing with success in this league once they have left the club. However, the track record for international players making their MLS debut with TFC, being released and finding employment with other MLS clubs has been pretty poor. Granted, I don't know how that compares with other MLS teams but regardless I am hoping that Winter and co are able to improve in this area.

[Richard]

^ There are exceptions to every rule ;-)

I don't think all international players will necessarily shine in the MLS environment just because they are internationals.

[BearcatSA]

^ There are exceptions to every rule ;-)

I don't think all international players will necessarily shine in the MLS environment just because they are internationals.

No denying this point, for sure. And as I said, I don't know how TFC compares to other MLS teams in this area. Maybe all teams in this league a revolving door for new international signees like TFC, I don't know.

[Vic]

I'm talking about adult man-management Vic, the kind that is needed to mold any disparate group into a co-operative unit whether on the soccer field in the corporate world or on the military battlefield, not kid's feel good stuff. You may view it as 22 corporations on the field but at the end of the day it is just 22 human beings. Real leadership is a valuable commodity, very difficult to teach but it is instantly recognisable when a person has it.

OK then, you pick a team of 11 fine gentlemen and leaders and I'll pick a team of 11 great players who do their job better than anyone else and we'll put them on the field and see what happens.

Like in individual sport, the leader is the one who steps up and gets the job done.

Joey Barton put in another 90 in the 5-0 thrashing of West Ham yesterday.

[loyola]

I was looking at the TFC stats for 2010 (all competitions) and I'm surprise to find out that DeRo and Barrett have a similar goal per minutes ratio (1 per 185 min for DeRo and 1 per 192 mins for Chad).

[Richard]

OK then, you pick a team of 11 fine gentlemen and leaders and I'll pick a team of 11 great players who do their job better than anyone else and we'll put them on the field and see what happens.

Like in individual sport, the leader is the one who steps up and gets the job done.

Joey Barton put in another 90 in the 5-0 thrashing of West Ham yesterday.

You missed my point entirely Vic although I find it difficult to believe a smart guy like you isn't just playing sillybuggers now... of course one can't have all 22 people on the field striving to be the leader. Leadership is required primarily from the head coach/manager and secondarily from the team captain from an operational point of view. Everybody else on the field is there to do the job they're paid to do - play ball and get the job done. Of course leadership is required in the front office too but that's another and different issue. But any group of people expected to work co-operatively towards a common goal needs a leader, that's a function of human nature. Sometimes it is not necessary to have a formal leader, one emerges naturally from the group but in an organised endeavour like a soccer team there is already a structure in place with the head coach as the boss (leader). That's where the man-management and leadership skills to which I am referring are essential, in addition to all the other obvious technical skills required.

[Vic]

isn't just playing sillybuggers now.

Probably am to some point Richard, and it's a great word. Outside of hockey, in North American professional sport where it's unionized and everyone has their own agent and lawyers, armbands are pretty much garish decoration. I couldn't tell you the captain of an NFL team (if they even have them), and the NBA is goofy with them (4 of the Bulls 13 are captains, Amar'e Stoudemire was a captain before he played his first game, etc). I doubt an MLB fan even knows who their captain is.

I've always seen man-management as the job of the coach and whoever settles their contract.

Real leadership is a valuable commodity, very difficult to teach but it is instantly recognisable when a person has it.

Most definitely.

My only issue was there's another type of leadership and that's the ability to stand up and deliver victory. It may not have the charisma or well-spoken words or wear a "C", but it's every bit as valuable. The leader is the one who leads. That can be either with their words or their game.

[Richard]

"The leader is the one who leads."

No argument there, informal leadership can be very powerful. One sees it in all walks of life. But leadership is needed on and off the soccer field too. In the high priced pro sports business the team captain's role may well have diminished but a coach/manager who cannot lead/manage his team may still find them winning, by default. The great managers in the game most certainly are skilled leaders and man managers.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Latest from the CBC website is that DeRosario will be back for the start of TFC's training camp:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/01/06/sp-derosario-update.html

..."There's no issue there. There's a bit of confusion in what's being reported," Tom Anselmi, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment's chief operating officer, said Thursday. "But Dwayne is over there training now. He's going to be back ready for training camp. What happened was miscommunication before New Year's. He was on his way over there and insurance hadn't been put in place yet. "Once that happened, fine, we support him 100 per cent."

In a phone interview with CBCSports.ca last month, Mark De Rosario claimed TFC was fully aware that the soccer star had been seeking a trial with Celtic for several weeks and that he was granted permission by the MLS club to go to Scotland.

"You just don't pick up and leave when you're under contract to go on trial for another team," said De Rosario, who is also Dwayne's business partner.

"You have to get permission from your club, and my brother isn't going to leave his family on Boxing Day during the holidays to go over Celtic on a whim."...

[Grizzly]

DeRo might get some ideas for his next pay protest from this video:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/soccer/blog/dirty-tackle/post/Spanish-squad-kneels-during-match-to-protest-not?urn=sow-303382

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

I was looking at the TFC stats for 2010 (all competitions) and I'm surprise to find out that DeRo and Barrett have a similar goal per minutes ratio (1 per 185 min for DeRo and 1 per 192 mins for Chad).

Nice, little tidbit there, I don't Barrett has much leverage for any sort of raise. DeRo has played great for TFC, but I have a feeling if he wasn't a Canadian he would have so much pull in this dispute. Is DeRo exploiting the fact he is a hoemtown boy for a raise, I think he might just be.

[montrealjuventus]

any updates on Dero? any comments from the staff at celtic? i know he will be back in TFC, but have Celtic said they liked him or not?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Latest from the Winnipeg Sun is that a short term loan deal is being negotiated:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/soccer/2011/01/11/16850971.html

...Sources close to the situation say Celtic, the Glasgow-based side De Rosario has been training with for the past fortnight, wants to sign the Canadian International on a short-term loan deal until the start of the Major League Soccer season.

No details of the possible loan deal were given, as one source indicates Celtic and Toronto FC are “working things out.” Toronto FC isn’t making any comment at this time...

Think that points to TFC being happy to see DeRosario leave and Celtic not being sure yet whether they want him.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Latest from the MLS website suggests that TFC and Celtic are not negotiating anything right now:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/details-de-rosarios-tfc-status-still-murky

De Rosario, Celtic and TFC are not speaking on the matter. In fact, Toronto FC told MLSsoccer.com that it would not be offering any further comment on De Rosario’s situation until the trial concludes.

[Redcoatsforever]

Latest from the Winnipeg Sun is that a short term loan deal is being negotiated:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/soccer/2011/01/11/16850971.html

...Sources close to the situation say Celtic, the Glasgow-based side De Rosario has been training with for the past fortnight, wants to sign the Canadian International on a short-term loan deal until the start of the Major League Soccer season.

No details of the possible loan deal were given, as one source indicates Celtic and Toronto FC are “working things out.” Toronto FC isn’t making any comment at this time...

Think that points to TFC being happy to see DeRosario leave and Celtic not being sure yet whether they want him.

I really don't think TFC would be happy to see DeRo leave. Celtic wants him for a short loan during their next six weeks or so while they play two matches weekly. It's a highly congested part of the SPL season. Really, it's a win-win-win situation; TFC and DeRo make money, DeRo gets to play in a high-level Euro-league, and gets more experience and comes back sharper than matches against Partizan Beograde and Dynamo Zagreb's reserve teams could ever make him with TFC reaping those benefits, and Celtic get a boost during a rough patch from a player whom Lennon has been complementing a fair bit.

TFC wins, Celtic wins, DeRo wins, and the TFC fans win, too, because DeRo's fitness and practice regimine will be miles ahead of what it would have been if he'd sat by the phone waiting to talk about his contract in Toronto all winter. And make no mistake, TFC were going to discuss his contract with him in the post-season. Why else would he have publicly apologized and reaffirmed his commitment to the club after the infamous "cheque-signabration"?

My guess is he was told that after the season ended they would negotiate him a raise.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Might as well bump this latest snippet given Redcoatsforever replied to the previous day's news and this slipped off the last page.

Latest from the MLS website suggests that TFC and Celtic are not negotiating anything right now:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/details-de-rosarios-tfc-status-still-murky

De Rosario, Celtic and TFC are not speaking on the matter. In fact, Toronto FC told MLSsoccer.com that it would not be offering any further comment on De Rosario’s situation until the trial concludes.

Maybe worth noting the word "trial" is used on the league website, which points to a transfer being on the cards if Celtic make a suitable offer. From what I remember Tom Anselmi told the FAN590 in an interview shortly after the cheque signing gesture that the final decision on DeRosario would be made by the new GM which would mean Mariner and/or Winter (probably the latter). Earl Cochrane was obviously out of the loop on it when there was the mixup just after Christmas but it makes sense to try to line up an alternative for a player who is under contract for over $400k this year if the assessment from the new regime could be "get rid of him". Legend has it amongst well connected fan group types that Preki wanted rid of him a year ago, for what it's worth, but was told he had to be kept.

[Redcoatsforever]

Might as well bump this latest snippet given Redcoatsforever replied to the previous day's news and this slipped off the last page.

Maybe worth noting the word "trial" is used on the league website, which points to a transfer being on the cards if Celtic make a suitable offer.

I chose not to comment on that because I read the article, and what I took away from it was that TFC are simply refusing to comment on the situation.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

I really don't think TFC would be happy to see DeRo leave. Celtic wants him for a short loan during their next six weeks or so while they play two matches weekly. It's a highly congested part of the SPL season. Really, it's a win-win-win situation; TFC and DeRo make money, DeRo gets to play in a high-level Euro-league, and gets more experience and comes back sharper than matches against Partizan Beograde and Dynamo Zagreb's reserve teams could ever make him with TFC reaping those benefits, and Celtic get a boost during a rough patch from a player whom Lennon has been complementing a fair bit.

TFC wins, Celtic wins, DeRo wins, and the TFC fans win, too, because DeRo's fitness and practice regimine will be miles ahead of what it would have been if he'd sat by the phone waiting to talk about his contract in Toronto all winter. And make no mistake, TFC were going to discuss his contract with him in the post-season. Why else would he have publicly apologized and reaffirmed his commitment to the club after the infamous "cheque-signabration"?

My guess is he was told that after the season ended they would negotiate him a raise.

I'd rather DeRo not go on loan and get to know any new additions to his club or go to Celtic outright. If he does go I hope he still plays as muchas he can for Canada.

[Redcoatsforever]

I'd rather DeRo not go on loan and get to know any new additions to his club or go to Celtic outright. If he does go I hope he still plays as muchas he can for Canada.

DeRo to Celtic would arguably result in more play for Canada. Last Gold Cup he didn't attend because he was focused on the TFC season. Celtic aren't playing during the Gold Cup and also break for FIFA dates (what a concept, right?) not to mention that any way you slice it, Celtic are playing in a higher level league than MLS, making DeRo an attractive midfield option. It would be good for Canada, DeRo, and Celtic if he made a permanent move there, but not so much for TFC's short term ambitions.