Dominic DiGironimo steps down as CSL commissioner

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Yes, so I could support a team that doesn't give two ****s about supporting Canadian talent.

See if you still feel that way after watching this video clip:

It's also a misconception that PDL is exclusively amateur and oriented towards university students. Recent changes to NCAA eligibility rules have made it possible for the USL to start a program called PDL Pro, which enables teams with no NCAA scholarship players on their roster to operate on more of a pro basis similar to a short season class A minor league baseball team. The Whitecaps make use of that for their Residency program which is clearly very much aimed at supporting and developing Canadian talent.

From what I've read elsewhere the new Winnipeg team are planning to use a large number of Winnipeg based players from an already existing soccer academy setup for their PDL team and hope to eventually be able to follow in the footsteps of the Ottawa Fury in using PDL as a stepping stone to the D2 NASL level. There's no reason for pessimism about the future of Canadian pro soccer right now in other words.

[Vic]

The thread is called "Dominic DiGironimo steps down as CSL commissioner!" If you can't quit trolling and show basic respect get the Hell out of here.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Pino is a good guy and as an interim operations person will be be alright. They will need a visionary that is able to work with the so nicely branded 'equity owners' to make it progressive. That is going to be a tough challenge indeed.

...or maybe people with higher ambitions need to finally accept that this league is not a viable platform for their vision given the "equity owners" can pull the plug on their vision at any moment and are highly likely to do so if there is ever a danger that their franchises will be left behind in playing standard terms (did people really not learn anything from the untimely demise of the Ottawa Wizards, who were basically too successful for their own good?). Too bad that the handful of people on here who appear to have an almost religious faith based belief system about the CSL won't listen to people who have actually had extensive dealings with the "equity owner" types in real life but the old saying that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" very much comes to mind.

[Juby]

...or maybe people with higher ambitions need to finally accept that this league is not a viable platform for their vision given the "equity owners" can pull the plug on their vision at any moment and are highly likely to do so if there is ever a danger that their franchises will be left behind in playing standard terms (did people really not learn anything from the untimely demise of the Ottawa Wizards, who were basically too successful for their own good?). Too bad that the handful of people on here who appear to have an almost religious faith based belief system about the CSL won't listen to people who have actually had extensive dealings with the "equity owner" types in real life but the old saying that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" very much comes to mind.

Wow, just wow...you present your opinions as facts, then offer a paranoid skewing of the csl owners, like it's almost certainly fact (and not just your imagination). And then act like were unreasonable because we think some ambitions are possible?

Seriously, making doomesday conclusions and presenting them arrogantly is not reasonable discussion, it's a scare tactic. Look at the assumption you made above, your whole point assumes CSL owners will almost certainly make poorly thought out, unpractically selfish (like they don't all know how much money they have) and just general wrong decisions? Why is assuming things will go as poorly as possible a point? Your whole problem with the owners is beyond me, you distrust them/assume incompetance because they payed/earned their way into the league?

Also, I didn't really have a problem with your last post, it just looked like you were standing up for the pdl (although I could point out, what exactly are the 'norms' eh, and it doesn't explain why someone should be more interested in mostly amateur pdl then semi pro csl), however it was rather crass to pretty much try and advertise the pdl in a thread about the resignation of the csl's commissioner.

edit: and about people and their ambitions, There isn't a group of people going around say IT WILL WORK, theirs varying degrees of IT MIGHT, IT COULD, LET's TRY then their's people saying, I DON'T THINK SO, MAYBE NOT YET, then theres's people who say IT CAN'T WORK as arrogantly as possible, so it's actually you who has 'an almost religious faith' in pessimism. Maybe standing on the polar extreme on an issue makes everyone in the middle look like the opposite extreme...

[TFCRegina]

See if you still feel that way after watching this video clip:

It's also a misconception that PDL is exclusively amateur and oriented towards university students. Recent changes to NCAA eligibility rules have made it possible for the USL to start a program called PDL Pro, which enables teams with no NCAA scholarship players on their roster to operate on more of a pro basis similar to a short season class A minor league baseball team. The Whitecaps make use of that for their Residency program which is clearly very much aimed at supporting and developing Canadian talent.

From what I've read elsewhere the new Winnipeg team are planning to use a large number of Winnipeg based players from an already existing soccer academy setup for their PDL team and hope to eventually be able to follow in the footsteps of the Ottawa Fury in using PDL as a stepping stone to the D2 NASL level. There's no reason for pessimism about the future of Canadian pro soccer right now in other words.

Again, I could care less about the PDL teams located in the Thunder Bay and Winnipeg.

I've seen the quality of PDL at the Fury matches. It ain't great (the Fury are good, but the opponents are generally crap, regional playoffs excepted). Some of the teams are decent, and there are a lot of weak setups. If we're going to pin our hopes on the PDL for player development, we got a long ways to go. The PDL's bushleague scheduling doesn't do much to help them either.

Finally, I'll just draw your attention back to the fact that you've derailed the thread with baseless speculation and the pumping of a USSF league, when we were talking about Canada's only sanctioned 3rd Division and something that is going on with respect to that league. If you have nothing else to add, I would politely ask you to talk about the PDL in the relevant threads.

Alternatively, you can PM me your rebuttle.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There is nothing baseless about exploring the significance of the words "CSL board of equity owners" appearing in the press release. Compare and contrast that with this wording from the PDF that was circulated in BC to clubs that were potential candidates for expansion:-

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/attachments/bc-soccer-general-discussion/8377d1286552527-csl-pacific-division-csl-information-pdf

In 2011 the CSL will be a Not-for-Profit Association governed by member clubs...

In order for the CSL to provide the aforementioned opportunities to your team, we require:

–$10,000 application fee to participate in the 2011 season.

–Club membership gains you the right to field a team in each CSL division/league, as well as voting rights in the CSL Association.

and it's not too difficult to see a potential reason why "differences eventually appeared which became irreconcilable, leading to the commissioner’s departure".

[Juby]

There is nothing baseless about exploring the significance of the words "CSL board of equity owners" appearing in the press release. Compare and contrast that with this wording from the PDF that was circulated in BC to clubs that were potential candidates for expansion:-

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/attachments/bc-soccer-general-discussion/8377d1286552527-csl-pacific-division-csl-information-pdf

In 2011 the CSL will be a Not-for-Profit Association governed by member clubs...

In order for the CSL to provide the aforementioned opportunities to your team, we require:

–$10,000 application fee to participate in the 2011 season.

–Club membership gains you the right to field a team in each CSL division/league, as well as voting rights in the CSL Association.

and it's not too difficult to see a potential reason why "differences eventually appeared which became irreconcilable, leading to the commissioner’s departure".

there's a difference between reasonable discussion and just using your imagination to come up with the most negative possible spin on things. Your telling us to take a sentence and read a proposal from months ago and you really expect people to reach your conclusions? it's the height of ego (not to mention a poor application of evidence). That's what I mean by doomesday scenario, I don't see how anyone could really view the csl owners with such undeserved distrust as you tend to (sometimes it seems your suspicious because the guys who paid in are in charge??). Anyone can say anything when things are vague. It's like if the power went out and someone says, 'maybe it's coup', maybe but I'd bet all my money a power line fell over.

Also, your backtracking now cause you were off topic (so am I pointing all this out, sorry)

[jpg75]

There is nothing baseless about exploring the significance of the words "CSL board of equity owners" appearing in the press release. Compare and contrast that with this wording from the PDF that was circulated in BC to clubs that were potential candidates for expansion:-

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/attachments/bc-soccer-general-discussion/8377d1286552527-csl-pacific-division-csl-information-pdf

In 2011 the CSL will be a Not-for-Profit Association governed by member clubs...

In order for the CSL to provide the aforementioned opportunities to your team, we require:

–$10,000 application fee to participate in the 2011 season.

–Club membership gains you the right to field a team in each CSL division/league, as well as voting rights in the CSL Association.

and it's not too difficult to see a potential reason why "differences eventually appeared which became irreconcilable, leading to the commissioner’s departure".

Good catch. If that's the case then these new teams acquiring voting rights without paying a sizeable buy-in fee would definitely piss off the equity members as they see their power in the league diluted.

[Macksam]

VP, where are you?

[mmd]

I would like to see the SAPUTO family some how be involved. We want someone with a vision, Joey Saputo & family might be the answer. We know they have the money. They know how to build a team from the ground up. Maybe with them involved we can see more Quebec based teams. I for one would love to see a coast to coast league, and this family may be the group to achieve such a goal.

[ray]

I would like to see the SAPUTO family some how be involved. We want someone with a vision, Joey Saputo & family might be the answer. We know they have the money. They know how to build a team from the ground up. Maybe with them involved we can see more Quebec based teams. I for one would love to see a coast to coast league, and this family may be the group to achieve such a goal.

It has been suggested on this forum that the Impact (Saputo group) have stood in the way of Quebec semi-pro soccer and the CSL's expansion (apart from the Impact's own involvement, of course). If the FSQ and Impact did take an interest in the 3rd division soccer, there would be good cause for optimism for the CSL and a coast-to-coast league in general.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So this doesn't get lost in the D2 forum I'll post these links here as well. Looks like Di Gironimo's departure led to some interesting developments behind the scenes. It looks like the CSL is about to have a competitor:

http://canadakicks.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-d3-non-amateur-league-in-ontario.html

This just came across my desk on a busy afternoon. there appears to be a serious movement from the Durham and Peel-Halton Regions to get a new non-amateur league of the ground in time for a spring 2011 kick-off.

This new league is currently going through the process of seeking approval to become the only Level 1 professional league sanctioned by the Ontario Soccer Association and have made presentations to OSA President, Ron Smale, and several large District Associations....

more details here:

http://www.canadakicks.com/docs/info_package.pdf

A new D3 professional league seeks to kick off its inaugural season in Spring 2011. The league will include clubs from Ontario and Quebec (pending the anticipated support of the Quebec Soccer Federation) and stands ready to invigorate the senior professional soccer landscape. This new league is currently going through the process of seeking approval to become the only Level 1 professional league sanctioned by the Ontario Soccer Association and have made presentations to OSA President, Ron Smale, and several large District Associations.

This league aspires to be the premier D3 professional league serving Ontario and Quebec and will ultimately serve as a progressive model for growing professional soccer at the D3 level throughout Canada.

Looks like the pro-Di Gironimo faction are planning to leave the CSL and will be starting their own D3 league minus the "equity owners". Judging from the info package this could be an excellent development if it happens.

[jpg75]

Excellent news, hopefully this new league runs as intelligently in practice as it appears it will in theory. If so, it will leave the CSL in the dust.

[bettermirror]

Is a competitor really what is needed? Where are they going to get the players from? Why not just take over the CSL?

[Richard]

There likely isn't room for both leagues to exist side by side. If I were a betting man I would put money on the CSL folding and its clubs, or at least some of them, moving to the new league which at first glance seems to me to have a more sustainable framework.

[Hammer]

–Club membership gains you the right to field a team in each CSL division/league, as well as voting rights in the CSL Association.

**Don't be fooled by the selective wording being used in this statement, truth is non equity will not have the same rights as equity members, end of story.

[hamiltonfan]

There is not room for two leagues to exist side by side. I admire the group for moving forward with this yet I urge to take a step back, and plan for launch next year. There is not enough time to launch a league with the adequate professional standards on and off the field.

Do this right the first time...it is your only chance.

[Richard]

I suggest the group applying for sanctioning of this 'non-amateur' league is already a long way down the path of getting organised for a 2011 summer season.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If Toronto and Montreal in the list of committed teams are the TFC and Impact Academy sides the new league should have all the connections required to get the job done and can be expected to quickly eclipse the CSL as the leading regional D3 league in an Ontario and Quebec context:

http://www.canadakicks.com/docs/info_package.pdf

Member Clubs

At present, this new league has commitments from member clubs in the following regions:

Hamilton

Milton

Durham

Ottawa

Toronto

Montreal

The new league also has written expressions of interest from 3 other groups based in the Greater Toronto Area and Southwestern Ontario.

Our objective is to seek like-minded organizations across Ontario and Quebec to commence operations in 2011 or 2012, and credible groups have already expressed serious interest.

The only way the sport will ever progress at that level rather than repeating the same 80 year old cycle of second rate mediocrity Groundhog Day style is to eliminate the stranglehold of the "equity owners" and the franchise based ownership model once and for all. The die is cast if sanctioning has been formally applied for so I suspect there won't be any backing down now. The Durham region connection probably helps in sanctioning terms given that's where the new OSA president (who appeared to be the main driving force between the CSA's constitutional reform) is from.

[Redcoatsforever]

If Toronto and Montreal in the list of committed teams are the TFC and Impact Academy sides the new league should have all the connections required to get the job done and can be expected to quickly eclipse the CSL as the leading regional D3 league in an Ontario and Quebec context:

http://www.canadakicks.com/docs/info_package.pdf

Member Clubs

At present, this new league has commitments from member clubs in the following regions:

Hamilton

Milton

Durham

Ottawa

Toronto

Montreal

The new league also has written expressions of interest from 3 other groups based in the Greater Toronto Area and Southwestern Ontario.

Our objective is to seek like-minded organizations across Ontario and Quebec to commence operations in 2011 or 2012, and credible groups have already expressed serious interest.

The only way the sport will ever progress at that level rather than repeating the same 80 year old cycle of second rate mediocrity Groundhog Day style is to eliminate the stranglehold of the "equity owners" and the franchise based ownership model once and for all. The die is cast if sanctioning has been formally applied for so I suspect there won't be any backing down now. The Durham region connection probably helps in sanctioning terms given that's where the new OSA president (who appeared to be the main driving force between the CSA's constitutional reform) is from.

I hope that when they say "southwestern Ontario" they're including London...maybe even FC London, seeing how, if I'm being honest, their inaugural season was mor successful than London City's past 37 combined.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I am way out of the loop these days on local London soccer (career eventually got in the way) so this is pure speculation but I think the reigning Ontario Cup champs AEK would be the obvious candidate in that regard rather than FC London because as I am sure you are well aware FC London seem to have their sights set on USL Pro (no interest in pursuing followups if you steer things in a nationalist rather than quality of soccer sort of direction over that) and building an SSS that is a bit more substantial than an enclosed field with seating for 500 people.

There are lots of ethnic social clubs in the London area that could meet the basic requirements by simply adding some more temporary bleachers and where necessary installing a cheap PA system and some sort of scoreboard because the bar has always been set quite high in local amateur soccer on facilities relative to what happens elsewhere in Canada. Even relatively obscure facilities like the Curinga Club might be viable as a venue after a bit of work. The tough part, which I suspect would make it a complete non-starter nowadays for almost all of the traditional ethnic community backed WOSL premier clubs as a standalone operation is the $50k on player and coach salaries and $20k line of credit.

It's the largest elite youth clubs that can help to put those sort of finances together based on the coach also being paid to be their technical director, and player salaries also probably being based partially on helping to coach youth sides through clinics etc. Just as City probably need the ongoing German club connection (have been told by various people that Marcus Gauss basically holds the mortgage on the place) and a deal with a top local youth club (London United) to have any hope of making the numbers work in a CSL context in the new D3 sanctioning environment a similar careful assembling of a coalition of groups that can collectively meet the various requirements would be needed in this would be rival league. Challenging to do but by no means impossible I suspect.

[Redcoatsforever]

...I think the reigning Ontario Cup champs AEK would be the obvious candidate in that regard rather than FC London because as I am sure you are well aware FC London seem to have their sights set on USL Pro ... and building an SSS that is a bit more substantial than an enclosed field with seating for 500 people.

Yes, that has appeared to be the case, I would think FCL might be interested though because they do already have ties to the OSL through their U-21 squad.

That aside, AEK are the obvious choice, I personally would prefer FCL as at their inception, they professed to be an agnostic, multicultural club. I'd essentially prefer not to be cheering for the Hellenic club, beside the orthodox church. EDIT: That said, if AEK were the member club from London, I would most likely get over whatever problems I had and support them.

As far as the planned stadium for FC London goes, I suppose it would really depend on the size of the stadium as to which league they would pursue. If they just planned on finding a pre-existing city-owned pitch, buying it, throwing up a set of permanent bleachers and a fence, I'd say it's anyones guess as to where they're headed. If they build an actual stadium, then I'd assume the USL PRO is most likely the safe bet. I'd still prefer an OSL-premier league, but as a realist, I see the allure of the USL in this case.

The tough part, which I suspect would make it a complete non-starter nowadays for almost all of the traditional ethnic community backed WOSL premier clubs as a standalone operation is the $50k on player and coach salaries and $20k line of credit.

Truthfully, if it were to be a local club pursuing a slot, and FC London are out of the equation -we know London City and by extension London United are- I would expect the real competition to be between AEK (the obvious choice), and clubs like nor'west, GOLS, or perhaps even an aggregate Optimist Club side. Again, I should stress AEK as the obvious choice, as you noted they are the current Ontario Cup champions, and routinely clean up in that tournament. Not to mention also that AEK have reserve teams at every level of WOSL below premier, and a rather extensive academy system.

As a hypothetical, if it is the OSA organizing this league, and they do in fact create it, could we expect to see a Professional edition of the Ontario Cup, similar to the FA Cup or the Copa del Rey?

I think that would be an obvious step for the league organizers and/or the OSA to take, and it would really open certain doors in a national third division context. For example, if there's a professional Ontario Cup, and the Ontario Cup winners traditionally qualify for the Challenge Cup, Why don't the other provincial associations (or groups of them, as would be necessary with the prairies and maritimes) start similar professional leagues, and have a professional edition of the Challenge cup?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I suspect it's disgruntled people involved with existing CSL teams like Milltown FC that are organizing this league rather than the OSA, for what it's worth. There are precedents for two regional "pro" leagues operating in southern Ontario at the same time, so I don't think there's anything that would prevent both from having sanctioning at the same time and I don't think that a provincial or national association automatically has to be involved in setting a league like that up.

The most recent example on the two leagues thing I can think of would be the NSL and Puma International (?) leagues when Toronto Croatia and a few other sides fell out with Rocco LoFranco the NSL commisoner and Toronto Italia owner. Soccer is in much better shape than it was 15 to 20 years back so I suspect one of the leagues would eventually win the battle by attracting the best clubs away from the other and would go on to prosper in the years ahead and there would be no repeat of what happened back then.

Personally think that semi-pro teams should be in the Challenge Cup (the whole idea of keeping elite amateur and semi-pro sides separated is an anachronism related to the Olympics movement) and that's the obvious way to add a national dimension but I suspect there would be opposition to that from the other provinces because it would probably make it more difficult for them to win although that wouldn't be the way the argument would be framed by the people who would object obviously.

[Redcoatsforever]

I suspect it's disgruntled people involved with existing CSL teams like Milltown FC that are organizing this league rather than the OSA, for what it's worth. There are precedents for two regional "pro" leagues operating in southern Ontario at the same time, so I don't think there's anything that would prevent both from having sanctioning and I don't think that a provincial or national association automatically has to be involved. The most recent example on the two leagues thing I can think of would be the NSL and Puma International (?) leagues when Toronto Croatia and a few other sides fell out with Rocco LoFranco the NSL commisoner and Toronto Italia owner. Soccer is in much better shape than it was 15 to 20 years back so I suspect one of the leagues would eventually win the battle by attracting the best clubs away from the other and would go on to prosper in the years ahead rather than a repeat of what happened back then.

I had just finished reading the league proposal you posted and was about to say "I really hope it's Milltown FC they're referring to in Milton.", you beat me to it. Here's my stance, I support the CSL and London City not out of loyalty to either of those organization, but out of loyalty to my community and in a national context. I imagine one league would win, or they would merge, forming a stronger league with a better overall structure.

I agree that semi-pro teams should be in the Challenge Cup but I suspect there would be opposition to that from other provinces because it would make it more difficult for them to win although that wouldn't be the way the argument would be framed by the people who would object obviously.

I don't think I was clear, I wouldn't expect the professionals to be mixing with the amateurs in the Challenge Cup, rather that a professional Challenge Cup would result from a similar league structure emerging in the other regions of Canada. a professional edition of the Ontario Cup would be excellent, the tournament has a strong history and tradition in this province. I believe this league model would be stronger for expansion across Canada than the CSL's because after reading the document, it appears to be much more open and equality-oriented in terms of club treatment. It's also designed to be affordable for the clubs, while still having semi-professional levels of investment and pay.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Made some subsequent edits on that last point before your speedy reply as you can probably see. Beyond that it's maybe worth bearing in mind that TFC Academy are an amateur side (so NCAA eligibility can be retained) competing against semi-pro teams in the CSL right now but they are probably the most professional team in the league in their approach to the game. When a player salary budget of $30k is all that's involved drawing an amatuer vs pro distinction borders on farcical, in my opinion. The real benchmark should be who can get the job done on the field of play.