MLS 2 Division Canada - Proposal (League Design)

[DigzTFC]

With the upcoming USSF meeting and MLS Cup in Toronto, I think it would be wise for the CSA to explore the possibility of the MLS operating a second division in Canada. Given the moratorium, getting an experienced league operator that would attract investors would be great to aid Canadian soccer.

The MLS’ business structure would ease the fears of Canadian soccer investors. Historically, Canadian soccer leagues have collapsed as smaller clubs succumbed to financial instability. The MLS model aids fledgling teams with its single entity structure to ensure the league progresses as a unit, as opposed to USL/NASL, whose variable club membership plays to the fears of Canadian soccer investors. However, few of these potential soccer investors will apply for an MLS1 expansion team due to the initial fee and the MLS’ limited number for future franchises. As the MLS’ brand is much more stable and widely recognized in Canada it will be strategically positioned to establish a second division league for the following reasons:

1) Lack of USL/NASL presence in Canada post 2012

2) Availability of potential ownership groups

a. Ottawa – Eugene Melnyk is interested in an MLS franchise.

b. Victoria Highlanders – PDL Ownership group is interested in a USL/NASL1 team.

c. Hamilton – Bob Young’s interest is contingent on a new stadium for the PAN Games.

d. Quebec City – The USL/NASL W-League owners were interested in a USL/NASL1 men’s team.

e. Edmonton FC has signed on with the USL/NASL for 2011 with plans for a new stadium

f. The Canadian Soccer League is speaking to investors in Western Canada, specifically, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Red Deer.

3) Increasing Support of Soccer in Canada

a. Soccer participation in Canada is growing year over year for the last 20 years with 854,740 registered players.

b. Soccer is 2nd fastest growing sport in Canada and is expected grow by 44% over the next 10 years.

c. Canada set overall attendance records for a FIFA U-20 World Cup at 1,156,187 (2007 Wikipedia) surpassing the old record set by Mexico in 1983 with venues in Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Victoria, Burnaby, and Edmonton.

d. Three MLS franchises with a successful following.

4) Markets Without Multiple Sports Franchises/History of Supporting 2nd Tier Sports

Rank City Province Population (Regional) Professional Franchises Semi-Pro Franchises

4 Ottawa Ontario 1,130,761 NHL CHL

5 Calgary Alberta 1,079,310 NHL & CFL CHL

6 Edmonton Alberta 1,034,945 NHL & CFL CHL

7 Quebec City Quebec 715,515 - CHL

8 Winnipeg Manitoba 694,668 CFL CHL

9 Hamilton Ontario 692,911 CFL CHL

10 London Ontario 457,720 - CHL

11 Kitchener Ontario 451,235 - CHL

13 Halifax Nova Scotia 372,858 - CHL

15 Victoria British Columbia 330,088 - CHL

Potential Gains for MLS:

5) Increased TV Ratings

a. Viewership and interest in MLS1 will increase with more MLS2 teams.

b. MLS1 TV contract will be more attractive due to increased viewership and advertising revenue generated by MLS2.

c. MLSE ownership of GolTV Canada will help support MLS2 national broadcast.

d. Canadian sponsorship revenue will increase for MLS1 clubs.

6) Capturing the Canadian Market

a. By monopolizing the top two tiers of Canadian soccer, the MLS will weaken the USL/NASL’s position in the second tier of North American soccer, which could lead to the MLS operating two second tier divisions, one in Canada and one in the United States, without competition.

b. Increased revenue from expansion fees of untapped markets.

c. Expanding the MLS brand to new markets and embedding it into the North America sport vocabulary.

7) Player Development

a. It will be a prime destination for developing young players.

b. It will provide a new feeder system for MLS and build the pyramid further

c. Loan deals will remain within the MLS system.

8) Operating a Second League

a. Apply lessons learned from MLS 1 and adapting them to MLS2.

b. Use MLS2 as a test market for structural changes to MLS1.

c. MLS1 will compete in the Canadian Nutralite Championship.

These are to name but a few of the potential gains and reasons to consider MLS2 Canada as a strategic opportunity for the MLS brand. While a daunting task, the opportunity will present itself. Pre-planning MLS2 years in advance will help provide for a smooth transition.

[Macksam]

If they can set up something like this, that would be awesome.

[Jeremy]

That sounds like a really good idea... there has to be a flaw somewhere!

Really, I'd like this to happen. Just the thought of being associated with MLS should be enough for investors to step up, instead of creating something from scratch.

[TFC07]

I don't like the idea of a Canadian soccer league being tied with MLS. That is enough for me not to support this idea. That is like CFL being called NFL 2. Kind of disrespectful IMO.

[Alex D]

I wouldn't mind this at all. Even though it is still under the umbrella of an american sports organization if it were an all Canadian league, sanctioned by the CSA, with the focus of developing Canadian talent, then I would have no issues with it.

[Macksam]

I don't like the idea of a Canadian soccer league being tied with MLS. That is enough for me not to support this idea. That is like CFL being called NFL 2. Kind of disrespectful IMO.

They can always break away in the future and call it the CPL (Canadian Premier League).

[paul-collins]

Why no Regina in your list? For that matter, if you're going to list a bunch of OHL towns, why not look at WHL / Q towns as well? (Or perhaps they belong in D3 rather than D2 - but not Regina, they belong in your D2 list of potentials)

[jedinathan]

Hmmmm. I don't mind this idea but to put something under an umbrella like this.. It seems to be that FIFA would have to approve of it. I believe that having the option of Canada breaking away eventually would be best, but in that case why wouldn't we just create our own league initially?

(Sorry for any typos, grammar etc.. On my phone, which isn't the easiest to type on..)

[BuzzAndSting]

Hmmmm. I don't mind this idea but to put something under an umbrella like this.. It seems to be that FIFA would have to approve of it. I believe that having the option of Canada breaking away eventually would be best, but in that case why wouldn't we just create our own league initially?

(Sorry for any typos, grammar etc.. On my phone, which isn't the easiest to type on..)

Partnering with MLS would add instant credibility and there would be a much larger list of investors.

[jloome]

This is a gross oversimplification, because it fails to account for the near-total lack of appropriate infrastructure. You not only have to convince those owners there's a reason to invest in a sport that traditionally loses money, you have to convince them to front some of the money for a stadium.

You then have to convince government to front some as well.

You then have to account for travel distances, which are prohibitively expensive at the D2 level, where revenues are usually, at most, around $2 million per year. Travel alone for one season can eat $400,000 plus of your budget.

There's no doubt we have the statistical base for a league, which is what your post implies. But everyone involved in the game already knows that. What they don't know is HOW TO DO IT. How to get these players involved, the infrastructure question answered AND the travel question.

I believe there are solutions in regionalizing loops and working with the best existing infrastructure, to an extent. But really, the big question is getting people whose existence revolves around making money to agree to lose some for a few years, to be patient working on a loss-leader while they work on a stadium.

It's a huge undertaking, and it's simply in no way realistic to just base it around population centres and the current popularity of the sport.

[DigzTFC]

Of course you need infrastructure and that is the largest part of the equation. However, you need a catalyst for investors to consider building infrastructure. Saputo Stadium costs $17 million. CFL stadium costs anywhere from $60-120 Million. Governments would be more willing to assist on smaller projects that have a sound financial model which I'm hoping the MLS would bring to the table. Also, the MLS has experience in building infrastructure as the league was the catalyst in SSS in the USA and can bring that to Canada.

[Juby]

This is a gross oversimplification, because it fails to account for the near-total lack of appropriate infrastructure. You not only have to convince those owners there's a reason to invest in a sport that traditionally loses money, you have to convince them to front some of the money for a stadium.

I believe he's suggesting we use mls's credibility to convince the investors, which isn't a terrible idea in my opinion.

And by complete lack of infrastructure you mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_soccer_stadia_by_capacity , I don't know all these stadiums but it looks to me like the big fat group in the middle might have some decent facilities and some that may be realistically renovated. If you mean infrastructure for man power (enough coaches and staff), it won't come until someone writes a cheque

You then have to convince government to front some as well.

You then have to account for travel distances, which are prohibitively expensive at the D2 level, where revenues are usually, at most, around $2 million per year. Travel alone for one season can eat $400,000 plus of your budget.

local governments might be more open to renovating stadiums around 4000 capacity for much smaller amounts then the current projects in montreal and bc.

also your figures are rather odd, travel for a north american continental league, revenue for a north american continental league, I've said it before but I think a new canadian d-2 would not be at the same level of an american d-2 (their a bigger country with more established leagues) so your travel costs may be a little less, the revenue may be less (we may also though corner our mildly better interest rates) and wages would be cheaper, let's honestly run those kinda numbers, let's say 300 000 travel, 1 000 000 wages, 1 500 000 revenue, it's obviously not that simple but with your numbers fixed abit for a smaller canadian market it doesn't look impossible, get a few extra sponsors (like ad barriers) and they might be good. It would however probably be contingent on a few thousand fans a game, but mls-2 might have the brand power to sell that well to start (then it's about game play)

There's no doubt we have the statistical base for a league, which is what your post implies. But everyone involved in the game already knows that. What they don't know is HOW TO DO IT. How to get these players involved, the infrastructure question answered AND the travel question.

I believe there are solutions in regionalizing loops and working with the best existing infrastructure, to an extent. But really, the big question is getting people whose existence revolves around making money to agree to lose some for a few years, to be patient working on a loss-leader while they work on a stadium.

It's a huge undertaking, and it's simply in no way realistic to just base it around population centres and the current popularity of the sport.

1) People don't start low level soccer teams to make money, period, I know this sounds odd but all over the world, low level soccer is a terrible business idea littered with a few good examples, alot of people breaking even and alot of people absorb losses. Your not going to convince sensible business person that low level soccer is a good investment when it's not. The people who make it work didn't get in because they had the business acumen to make it work, if it was about the money they would have invested their time somewhere else more profitable.

People only get into mid level soccer because they love the game, they want to be involved, and to that crowd, the idea of breaking even instead of dealing with even greater sums to possibly crash and burn sounds pretty damn good.

The only money involved that is mostly about pure business is alot of sponsors, they sponsor you and you advertise for them. (to be honest I don't imgaine the tv revenues for a decent league would be very high, so a decent tv deal might be a bit of a favour)

2) getting players involved: we have alot of players falling through the cracks, when young guys youth or pro contracts end, they have to take a significant step down which is why the csl get's a boost, alot of guys who should be playing somewhere between csl and nasl are in the csl. The americans even have alot of players falling through the cracks the same way. Also theirs a decent amount of countries where a 30 000 a year contract is a step up and a 3 year contract can equal citizenship (scouting can be expensive though), the players will come because the csl has proven alot of fairly talented guys would rather earn a little and keep playing at a decent level then give up on their dream. Creating these teams also makes the whole path from local youth to tfc a whole lot more realistic.

Your final point just saddens me, your whole point mostly focuses on a percieved lack of infrastructure, and therefore the idea of trying to find the money to create said infrastructure is 'in no way realistic'. basic business, youve all heard this before, is it cheaper to make a new customer or keep a customer? keep a customer because getting a customer involves a certain amount of wooing. If the initial investment could be made it will make any plan easier because like you went on about as the current problem, more infrastructure would exist.

Now, on to the main topic, I think it's a pretty good idea, I don't know if mls would ever go for it but if I understand this right, on the one hand we would sort of be mls' guinea pig for creating lower divisions but we would have a good amount of autonomy and a division built around our interests.

[jloome]

I believe he's suggesting we use mls's credibility to convince the investors, which isn't a terrible idea in my opinion.

And by complete lack of infrastructure you mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_soccer_stadia_by_capacity , I don't know all these stadiums but it looks to me like the big fat group in the middle might have some decent facilities and some that may be realistically renovated. If you mean infrastructure for man power (enough coaches and staff), it won't come until someone writes a cheque

local governments might be more open to renovating stadiums around 4000 capacity for much smaller amounts then the current projects in montreal and bc.

also your figures are rather odd, travel for a north american continental league, revenue for a north american continental league, I've said it before but I think a new canadian d-2 would not be at the same level of an american d-2 (their a bigger country with more established leagues) so your travel costs may be a little less, the revenue may be less (we may also though corner our mildly better interest rates) and wages would be cheaper, let's honestly run those kinda numbers, let's say 300 000 travel, 1 000 000 wages, 1 500 000 revenue, it's obviously not that simple but with your numbers fixed abit for a smaller canadian market it doesn't look impossible, get a few extra sponsors (like ad barriers) and they might be good. It would however probably be contingent on a few thousand fans a game, but mls-2 might have the brand power to sell that well to start (then it's about game play)

1) People don't start low level soccer teams to make money, period, I know this sounds odd but all over the world, low level soccer is a terrible business idea littered with a few good examples, alot of people breaking even and alot of people absorb losses. Your not going to convince sensible business person that low level soccer is a good investment when it's not. The people who make it work didn't get in because they had the business acumen to make it work, if it was about the money they would have invested their time somewhere else more profitable.

People only get into mid level soccer because they love the game, they want to be involved, and to that crowd, the idea of breaking even instead of dealing with even greater sums to possibly crash and burn sounds pretty damn good.

The only money involved that is mostly about pure business is alot of sponsors, they sponsor you and you advertise for them. (to be honest I don't imgaine the tv revenues for a decent league would be very high, so a decent tv deal might be a bit of a favour)

2) getting players involved: we have alot of players falling through the cracks, when young guys youth or pro contracts end, they have to take a significant step down which is why the csl get's a boost, alot of guys who should be playing somewhere between csl and nasl are in the csl. The americans even have alot of players falling through the cracks the same way. Also theirs a decent amount of countries where a 30 000 a year contract is a step up and a 3 year contract can equal citizenship (scouting can be expensive though), the players will come because the csl has proven alot of fairly talented guys would rather earn a little and keep playing at a decent level then give up on their dream. Creating these teams also makes the whole path from local youth to tfc a whole lot more realistic.

Your final point just saddens me, your whole point mostly focuses on a percieved lack of infrastructure, and therefore the idea of trying to find the money to create said infrastructure is 'in no way realistic'. basic business, youve all heard this before, is it cheaper to make a new customer or keep a customer? keep a customer because getting a customer involves a certain amount of wooing. If the initial investment could be made it will make any plan easier because like you went on about as the current problem, more infrastructure would exist.

Now, on to the main topic, I think it's a pretty good idea, I don't know if mls would ever go for it but if I understand this right, on the one hand we would sort of be mls' guinea pig for creating lower divisions but we would have a good amount of autonomy and a division built around our interests.

Look, ever since our spat in the other thread, I feel no inclination to debate with you. Your points are facile, generally, and therefore sort of a waste of my time. But if you feel inclined to pipe in with poorly thought out criticism every time I post, then congratulations, you win, I'll **** off like I did the last time I quit this board a decade (or thereabouts) ago.

I hate this immature ****. I don't believe your criticism is sincere, or it wouldn't be so threadbare and simplistic . It's just an attempt to argue with someone you don't like because of a dispute in another thread.

Do me a favour: ignore my posts and I'll try, ever ever ever so hard, to ignore yours.

[Juby]

Look, ever since our spat in the other thread, I feel no inclination to debate with you. Your points are facile, generally, and therefore sort of a waste of my time. But if you feel inclined to pipe in with poorly thought out criticism every time I post, then congratulations, you win, I'll **** off like I did the last time I quit this board a decade (or thereabouts) ago.

I hate this immature ****. I don't believe your criticism is sincere, or it wouldn't be so threadbare and simplistic . It's just an attempt to argue with someone you don't like because of a dispute in another thread.

Do me a favour: ignore my posts and I'll try, ever ever ever so hard, to ignore yours.

1) were still pretty much talking about the same topic...

2) you haven't been reading my posts anyway so how can you say my arguements 'facile' and 'poorly thought out' if you don't know what they are? here's a crazy idea GIVE AN EXAMPLE, just find an example of me making a poor point, not run on or typos, prove I'm making a stupid point with basic logic. Instead of continueing to be a snot ass, PROVE IT, if what your saying is true, it should be easy. But you just move on and make the same bad points, I'm not gonna let you paint the idea of a national league in all it's varients like it's bad just because you think you know better and don't want to read the opposing points to protect your view.

3) I ignored all your posts till you started making arrogant 'know it all' posts on the idea of a national league (oh yeah and you being a little snot), some of your reasoning is poorly thought out. Like your 'why would anything change' bit.

If I'm exactly how you say, it should be easy to prove, my points should make no sense, but once again you'll just not read this and act like a big victim.

The reason I posted that by the way, is because you accused the thread starter of over simplyfying his ideas, and then proceeded to back that up with a bunch of over simplified, misleading and just plain poor points. Sorry I think your arguements are garbage, how about for once, instead of freaking out, try dealing with what their actually saying, if I'm so stupid it should be easy to show that by reading for once.

edit: and how can you say my criticism is insincere? what, did I used to be against a national division? Do my arguements not make sense? (example please, you saying something means nothing if it's an unbacked statement, i shouldn't have to explain that) of course you've never read my arguements so what do you know.

[Guest Ed]

You do go on and on don't you?

[Juby]

You do go on and on don't you?

how about you criticise what I've said, not how I say it, if theirs a problem, it should be easy to prove considering how much I 'go on and on'.

Is it so much to ask someone come up with a better rebuttle then grammer or 'weeding makes me tired', that might actually embaress me but no, you just make a snide comment and pretend your somehow better then a teenage girl. try debating me, try it, but no, that would actually mean reading a little bit (which your treating like the end of the world).

edit: notice anything funny about this thread? Jloome makes some arguements, I thought they were poor and said why, he then just goes completely off topic in a pity parade without reading what I said, I follow him off topic (my bad), then ed comes in and has nothing to say except insult me (completely off topic), but i'm the immature one, as far as I can tell their no better then me, and twice as old.

[Guest Ed]

^ JLoome quite clearly said he has no interest in debating you and to please ignore his posts. And yet you attempt to continue the same debate, over and over.

I was not attempting a 'rebuttle' [sic - FFS] or acting like a teenage girl. Grow up, get a pair and debate with someone who wants to engage you in debate. JLoome is clearly not in that category.

[Juby]

he also said my arguements were poor and insincere yet didn't talk about them. Also, if he doesn't want to debate it, why does he move on to the next thread of pretty much the same topic and cart out his previous list of poor arguements like they'll be good if no one bothers to point out the errors this time?

If your gonna make bad arguements, I'm gonna point out why there bad, this is not me being a dick, I'm not going to let someone make something look inaccurately bad so they can protect their ego, If I am this horrible *******, it should be relatively easy to prove it by showing me making poor points, butttt noooooo, I'm just an ass for literally, not letting them win.

Also, maybe he shouldn't say his arguements in such "I have to be right" arrogant manner, especially since alot of them are clearly faulty, and you ed, obviously you were not attempting to rebuttle, or else you would have made something related to a point, so you were just being snide for the sake of snide agian, like a...

KEY POINT: YOU DON"T WANT A REBUTTLE? MAKE SENSE! BE ACCURATE!

edit: honestly. how about every possible national league thread starts with the big group of anti people saying all the same things they've been saying for months whether they make sense or not, let's just let the pessimists control the debate.

btw, all sorts of pity for jloome, but what about the thread starter, who had a silly 'full of it' post by jloome that wasn't paticularly insightful but pretended to guareentee, it wouldn't work. and when I point that out, he has a hissy fit

to be fair I feel bad for the thread starter, I honestly think everything from jloome's hissy fit on should be taken out because from there on were all right off topic

and seriously, you, jloome, richard and so on came at me the other day saying a bunch of snotty **** over some run on sentences, you all made snotty comments that said the same poor point (rationalizing snobbishness) and then when I made fun of you guys for being so silly, you guys act like you can respond to my posts without reading them for the last couple of days. But noooo, it's me pointing out bad arguements thats the end of the world, but you'll probably just tell yourself your too good to read longish posts and be happy not having to deal with other opinions, all the while these guys are forcing the same stupid opinions down everybody throats for months and it's my repeated rebuttles that get tiresome, just absurd

[Tuscan]

Why couldn't we just borrow the MLS model and build our own league and keep away from falling under yet another yankee umbrella? Are we really that dependent on the US that our leagues need to be so intertwined? CFL is already NFL-junior considering the number of american players the teams feature.

Seriously, a financially centralized league with a very similar design as MLS would provide the exact same safeguards to the Canadian clubs that MLS does to it's franchises. The most difficult part would be gaining sponsors and league partners. That would have to be the #1 priority, they would have to create a MASSIVE sponsor base, and the sponsorships would have to be decently long contracts as well in the hopes the sponsors wouldn't up and pull out.

[Redcoatsforever]

Why couldn't we just borrow the MLS model and build our own league and keep away from falling under yet another yankee umbrella? Are we really that dependent on the US that our leagues need to be so intertwined? CFL is already NFL-junior considering the number of american players the teams feature.

Seriously, a financially centralized league with a very similar design as MLS would provide the exact same safeguards to the Canadian clubs that MLS does to it's franchises. The most difficult part would be gaining sponsors and league partners. That would have to be the #1 priority, they would have to create a MASSIVE sponsor base, and the sponsorships would have to be decently long contracts as well in the hopes the sponsors wouldn't up and pull out.

Well, that's just plain sensible. Are you sure you belong on the internet?

Seriously though, I think you're onto something there. What we need are some Canucks who can do like Anchutz and Hunt, create a league, own several teams apiece, as the league grows and becomes more professional, sell them off to other ownership groups. Whether or not there ARE Canadians out there who would do such a thing has yet to be seen.

[bettermirror]

MOD POST: enough with the piss-take, gents. Moving on...

Re: MLS Canada. It'd be great if it meant more Canadian professional teams. I can't imagine there are men or women out there interested in such a Canadian investment though. Also, why would MLS allow a Canadian league under the MLS umbrella at significantly lower expansion fees but all the benefits?

[Juby]

Also, why would MLS allow a Canadian league under the MLS umbrella at significantly lower expansion fees but all the benefits?

They wouldn't get all the benefits, I don't think he mentioned promotion so they would be paying lower expansion fees to get into some sort of mls 2 canada, they may have to pay some huge expansion fee to step up to mls, all speculation but like I said, their not getting all the benefits in his idea.

[bettermirror]

That's nitpicking Juby. They would have an mlsnet web page, MLS affiliation logos, foxsoccer and espnsoccernet coverage. yep, it would be recognized as "inferior" but still it would be an MLS league and receive coverage/advertising.

Apologies for not being specific - I realize there would not be promotion/relegation.

[Juby]

That's nitpicking Juby. They would have an mlsnet web page, MLS affiliation logos, foxsoccer and espnsoccernet coverage. yep, it would be recognized as "inferior" but still it would be an MLS league and receive coverage/advertising.

Apologies for not being specific - I realize there would not be promotion/relegation.

now I look like an ass just for talking (thanks) but I do not think it's nitpicking at all, the affiliation, website and internet exposure is probably the cheapest part, the real negative is that their not actually getting an 'mls' squad. I don't think anyone would pay anywhere near the usual expansion fee for that, and I don't think mls would actually mind (if they decided to try something below d-1) selling off cheap mls - lite franchises that don't threaten their regular franchises. (which was why i was talking about the lack of promotion)

I think that would be the most important benefit of paying a huge expansion fee would be getting into a good established league with good established competition, without that, it's not so valueble, the major peice they have left to sell is their brand name, which costs them nothing as long we weren't an embarressment.

[ted]

Why couldn't we just borrow the MLS model and build our own league and keep away from falling under yet another yankee umbrella?

Have you ever read the CUSL plan? That was precisely the premise.

It failed to gain sufficient support and the only thing that has changed is that the three key markets in Canada are already hosting MLS teams.